Bjarne on: Dark Energy, only an illusion.

[Bjarne]

Wrong. It is not a matter of temperature (so much), iti s a matter of pressure. The pressure inside the storm is lower, so the air is less dense = lighter

Holy Moses, dybt godnat....

Sometimes thunderclouds are so heavy you can reach them with you hands...
Rain in a hurricane tries to fall down, but is trapped for days by the fast moving rotating air.

ONLY warm air and vapor below the storms are lighter and contributes with energy to the storm.

After condensation and cooling vapor is heavier, - and trapped, - and prevented, - to fall down by the speed of the hurricane and by the lighter upward moving air from below.

Hans now stop this silly crap
Every Muuuhhh-cow on the planet know that clouds can be so heavy that you actually can reach them with your hands.

http://www.adjustersite.com/HurricaneKatrina.php
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...ricane_katrina_over_mississippi_grass.jpg&t=1
http://www.adjustersite.com/images/Katrina/HurricaneKatrina-9.jpg

It is so muuuh-cooooowwww logic simple
What comes up must come down
Water from the ocean come up and must come down.
Cows have never doubted of that the last 70.000 yeas, also not threes, flowers, chicken and rats.
I refused to discuss this chicken logic stupid nonsense further.
Muuuu from here.

 

[Bjarne]

If a hurricane within a radius of 50 km from the center, can carry 1000 liter water per square meter the total amount of water in that inner area = 8*10¹² Kg.

This will give an acceleration at the 50 km periphery = 0,0000013 m/s²After 24 hours, - 86400 seconds an air or water molecule would hence travel would travel with a speed of 0,018 m/s only because of gravity.
This is an average of 0,009 m/s since it started, and a total rotation distance of = 781 meter after 24 hours.

This is based on if the ADG is stable towards the center.
If the ADG is increasing it would be faster.

Fast rising warm air will reinforce and speed up the rotating process.

The water amount is based on an assumption, it could be more or less, but is not important. Warm rising air is reinforce the beginning rotating process, this is important.

The cause of hurricanes only sometimes emerges, - depends first at all on how much mass contributes to encircle a central common point of space (at Africa’s west coast).

This will cause slow acceleration towards the common gravity center. This slow rotation due to gravity can cause a common low pressure, - a process that fast get reinforces by rising warm air.

Even mass (heavy clouds) thousands kilometers away from the gravity center can contribute to establish a common low pressures center, and hence to that a rotation will begin.

Central encircled space will also cause mass attraction between different small low pressure /thunderclouds , and the common center.

This as well can contribute to the rotation of the system, - for example when a small low pressure, is moving faster, (due to eastern the jet wind) than the bigger common low pressure.

These low pressure behaves differently at equator (than for example further north) because of the very fast eastern jet stream most of the time prevents these to rotate; instead heavy thunder clusters of clouds are fast carries away by the strong eastern yet wind stream.

This seems to be the secret of how the dangerous rotation begins.
Sometimes Mr. Gravity makes the rules, - not always, - most of the time Mr Eastern Jet stream is too fast and he makes the rules.

So it is the very beginning of hurricanes and all kind of low pressure we haven’t understood.

 

[Reality Check]

...snipped ignorance of "Mr Gravity"...
So it is the very beginning of hurricanes and all kind of low pressure we haven’t understood.

So has nothing to do with hurricanes since the ADG of the Earth is basically constant.

The start of hurricanes is well understood: Tropical cyclogenesis

It is the very beginning of hurricanes and all kind of low pressure that Bjarne does not understood though !

The fatal flaws and basic ignorance in Bjarne's ideas in his threads
(original full list to which more points have been linked)

 

[Bjarne]

The start of hurricanes is well understood: Tropical cyclogenesis

Amen

 

[MRC_Hans]

I refused to discuss this chicken logic stupid nonsense further.
Muuuu from here.

I'm glad you finally recognized your ideas for what they are.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

If a hurricane within a radius of 50 km from the center, can carry 1000 liter water per square meter the total amount of water in that inner area = 8*10¹² Kg.

This will give an acceleration at the 50 km periphery = 0,0000013 m/s²After 24 hours, - 86400 seconds an air or water molecule would hence travel would travel with a speed of 0,018 m/s only because of gravity.
This is an average of 0,009 m/s since it started, and a total rotation distance of = 781 meter after 24 hours.

This is based on if the ADG is stable towards the center.
If the ADG is increasing it would be faster.

Fast rising warm air will reinforce and speed up the rotating process.

The water amount is based on an assumption, it could be more or less, but is not important. Warm rising air is reinforce the beginning rotating process, this is important.

The cause of hurricanes only sometimes emerges, - depends first at all on how much mass contributes to encircle a central common point of space (at Africa’s west coast).

This will cause slow acceleration towards the common gravity center. This slow rotation due to gravity can cause a common low pressure, - a process that fast get reinforces by rising warm air.

Even mass (heavy clouds) thousands kilometers away from the gravity center can contribute to establish a common low pressures center, and hence to that a rotation will begin.

http://www.science27.com/images/img_87.jpg
Central encircled space will also cause mass attraction between different small low pressure /thunderclouds , and the common center.

This as well can contribute to the rotation of the system, - for example when a small low pressure, is moving faster, (due to eastern the jet wind) than the bigger common low pressure.

These low pressure behaves differently at equator (than for example further north) because of the very fast eastern jet stream most of the time prevents these to rotate; instead heavy thunder clusters of clouds are fast carries away by the strong eastern yet wind stream.

This seems to be the secret of how the dangerous rotation begins.
Sometimes Mr. Gravity makes the rules, - not always, - most of the time Mr Eastern Jet stream is too fast and he makes the rules.

So it is the very beginning of hurricanes and all kind of low pressure we haven’t understood.

Bjarne, you are deeper in than I thought you could get. I gave you the key to figure out the mass and density of the water in a hurricane, but you, as always, prefer guesswork over facts.

However, you are completely out of bounds, here. Even the cows should tell you that a cloud cannot stay up in the air if it is heavier than air. (However, I suspect that you have been consulting the wrong end of the cows, lately.

Bjarne, the following are facts:

1) Water vapor is lighter than air.

2) Water does not get heavier by condensing (only denser).

3) The column of air in a low pressure weighs less than air under normal pressure.

Deal with it.

Hans

 

[Paul]

I know it's a relatively minor point, but it seems to require Bjarne's attention:

Hurricanes are not 2 dimensional.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Actually, I have some waiting time, so let me show you how the facts fit your speculations (or rather, don't fit)

If a hurricane within a radius of 50 km from the center, can carry 1000 liter water per square meter the total amount of water in that inner area = 8*10¹² Kg.

Let's see. The density of air is around 1.2 kg/m³.
A hurricane cloud is up to 10km tall. So a one m² column contains 10,000 m³ of air. Of course, the density falls with altitude, so at 10km, it is reduced to 0.42 kg/m³. The funtion is not quite linear, but let's assume it is and use the average: 0.81 kg/m³.

So your column weighs 8,100kg, if it's dry air. Moist air is a little lighter, so let's say 8 tons. Saturated air at 30degC can contain 3% water by weight. Let us assume that this is the source of the whole column, even if some of the water condenses at higher altitudes.

So, at the very most, your column can contain 240kg of water, and that is provided none of it has yet fallen as rain.

This will give an acceleration at the 50 km periphery = 0,0000013 m/s²

No less than 3 faults here, even if I assume your calculation is correct (and there is obviously little reason to assume that):

1) We must reduce your acceleration to 24% because you overestimated the amount of water present.

2) You assume that the weight of water is an additional weight, making the column heavier than the surrounding ait. This is wrong.

3) You are claiming that it is a rotational force. That is completely unfounded. If it existed, it would be directed towars the center.

After 24 hours, - 86400 seconds an air or water molecule would hence travel would travel with a speed of 0,018 m/s only because of gravity.
This is an average of 0,009 m/s since it started, and a total rotation distance of = 781 meter after 24 hours.

And even your cow can see that this is a ridiculously small figure compared to the 100+m/s winds prevailing in a hurricane system. Your puny little acceleration, even if it existed, could not overcome the friction. It could not even holde the hurricane together against the centripetal force.

This is based on if the ADG is stable towards the center.
If the ADG is increasing it would be faster.

But, why should it not be stable? Even if a hurricane starts over an area with a higher ADG, it will move away.

Fast rising warm air will reinforce and speed up the rotating process.

Wrong. It is not the rising air that gives the rotation, it is the air rushing in to replace it.

The water amount is based on an assumption, it could be more or less, but is not important.

Wrong. The water vapor is the driving force behind it all. Not because of the weight, because it is lighter than air, but because it provides energy to the system.

Warm rising air is reinforce the beginning rotating process, this is important.

It all starts with rising air, but moisture must be there, otherwise nothing happens.

The cause of hurricanes only sometimes emerges, - depends first at all on how much mass contributes to encircle a central common point of space (at Africa’s west coast).

This will cause slow acceleration towards the common gravity center. This slow rotation due to gravity can cause a common low pressure, - a process that fast get reinforces by rising warm air.

Wrong. Your whole idea builds on the, mistaken, notion that moist air is heavier than dry air. However, the exact opposite is the case.

Even mass (heavy clouds) thousands kilometers away from the gravity center can contribute to establish a common low pressures center, and hence to that a rotation will begin.

Again, clouds are not heavier than air. (I don't know how you can get the idea that they are).

These low pressure behaves differently at equator (than for example further north) because of the very fast eastern jet stream most of the time prevents these to rotate; instead heavy thunder clusters of clouds are fast carries away by the strong eastern yet wind stream.

Gibberish.

This seems to be the secret of how the dangerous rotation begins.
Sometimes Mr. Gravity makes the rules, - not always, - most of the time Mr Eastern Jet stream is too fast and he makes the rules.

Gibberish.

So it is the very beginning of hurricanes and all kind of low pressure we haven’t understood.

'We' must be you and the cows. The rest of us do understand it.

Bjarne, I suggest you drop this subject. You obviously have no idea of what you are talking about.

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

We must reduce your acceleration to 24% because you overestimated the amount of water present.

It is not important:

• Warm air and vapors reinforce to the weak rotating process that initially was started by gravity.
• Mass further away than 50 km, in fact thousand of kilometer away, - also contributes to create a low pressure / gravitionel center as well.
• ADG could be accelerating towards the center of an (extended) inner mass.

Your puny little acceleration, even if it existed, could not overcome the friction

Already the creeds-system you believe in, believe an innocent disturbing (whirlpool) is enough comrade amigo Hans.

It could not even holds the hurricane together against the centripetal force.

My dear you have the exact same problem, what do you believe holds a hurricane together. ?

But, why should it not be stable?

It depends on how the nature of space is.
I will not be surprised if ADG is increasing (inside a mass) towards the center of a mass (we will soon begin to understand).

Even if a hurricane starts over an area with a higher ADG, it will move away.

The gravitionel center will always be “there” where masses equally encircle a central points between. If the eastern jet moves huge clouds systems "away", the gravity center moves the same way too.

Wrong. It is not the rising air that gives the rotation; it is the air rushing in to replace it.

The rushing air is both rotating and moving upwards. The wind as a whole IS the rotation.

Wrong. The water vapor is the driving force behind it all. Not because of the weight, because it is lighter than air, but because it provides energy to the system.

The energy is only the ability to move upwards. Cold vapors = rain, it falls down, warm vapors (and air) is rising.

It all starts with rising air, but moisture must be there, otherwise nothing happens.

You begin to get the point amigo, - you see the warm moisture = air condensate = mass = gravity = a slowly rotation begins = condensation takes place in a center + varm vapour takes this new direction = and this is the way the carousel begins to rotate.

Wrong. Your whole idea builds on the, mistaken, notion that moist air is heavier than dry air. However, the exact opposite is the case.

Every sewage-rat knows that rain is heavier than air. And every cow and chicken has seen that moisture that goes up must come down as heavy rain (sooner or later).
70 million years ago the first cow university was figuring out it all had something with gravity (+ varm vapour) to do.

 

[MRC_Hans]

• Warm air and vapors reinforce to the weak rotating process that initially was started by gravity.

You forgot to explain how the rotary effect of your gravity comes about. Why does it not go straight towads the COG?

• Mass further away than 50 km, in fact thousand of kilometer away, - also contributes to create a low pressure / gravitionel center as well.

How?

• ADG could be accelerating towards the center of an (extended) inner mass.

Then where does the rotation come from?

Already the creeds-system you believe in, believe an innocent disturbing (whirlpool) is enough comrade amigo Hans.

No, that is something different.

My dear you have the exact same problem, what do you believe holds a hurricane together. ?

Pressure. The pressure inside is lower than outside. That holds it together.

The gravitionel center will always be “there” where masses equally encircle a central points between. If the eastern jet moves huge clouds systems "away", the gravity center moves the same way too.

Gibberish.

The rushing air is both rotating and moving upwards. The wind as a whole IS the rotation.

Do you know what makes it rotate? (I know, but do you??)

The energy is only the ability to move upwards.

Rather important since the upwards motion is the engine.

Cold vapors = rain, it falls down, warm vapors (and air) is rising.

Wrong. Condensation releases heat.

You begin to get the point amigo,

I have had the point all the time. You, OTOH, are not even near.

- you see the warm moisture = air condensate = mass = gravity

So you think that condensation increases the mass? That is too silly, even for cows.

= a slowly rotation begins = condensation takes place in a center + varm vapour takes this new direction = and this is the way the carousel begins to rotate.

Gibberish, but do explain why you think it rotates.

Every sewage-rat knows that rain is heavier than air. And every cow and chicken has seen that moisture that goes up must come down as heavy rain (sooner or later).

Nobody said rain isn't heavier than air. That is, sort of, the reason it falls down. What YOU said was that clouds are heavy. Which is nonsense.

Hans

 

[phunk]

After condensation and cooling vapor is heavier, -

After condensation, it's not vapor anymore.

 

[MRC_Hans]

After condensation, it's not vapor anymore.

The problem is that Bjarne does not understand thermodynamics. In fact he doesn't even know it exists.

So he just makes silly claims like "After condensation and cooling vapor is heavier, -", whithout realising that the heat must go somewhere. - And it actually seems he thinks that a given amount of water becomes heavier when it condensates.



Hans

 

[Bjarne]

You forgot to explain how the rotary effect of your gravity comes about. Why does it not go straight towads the COG?

A quite day matter from all direction will move towards the center.
This will start ration. If the eastern jet wind blow above the COG actually also this will reinforce the process, - because wind circling upwards can then fast escape.

Bjarne Mass further away than 50 km, in fact thousand of kilometer away, - also contributes to create a low pressure / gravitionel center as well.
Hans
How?

I think we have been that though many times.
Matters sucks space from all direction.

Bjarne
Already the creeds-system you believe in, believe an innocent disturbing (whirlpool) is enough comrade amigo Hans.
Hans
No, that is something different

Ohh really,(!) - which ?

Wrong. Condensation releases heat.

Wrong,
lf cold and warm molecyles collides temperature merges and the heat/energy “disappears” out in the blue.

So you think that condensation increases the mass?
That is too silly, even for cows.

Clouds, - forms when varm air vapour rises (a certain place), - vapor condensate due to colder air, - this will continue so long warm vapors is rising, - whereby the mass of the vapors content per m³ increase, exactly like 1+1 = 2 and 2+1 = 3
This process can also be further increased when rising winds traps / prevents rain it to fall.

Nobody said rain isn't heavier than air.

How do you define a “drop of rain?”

Hans to make a long cow stupid story short, - do I understand you right?

You believe:

• That the tornado-hurricane-and-thunder-clouds traps the vapors right?
• And therefore these get gradually more black proportional with the trapped vapors right?.
• And because the vapors are lighter than air, then the conclusion is; - the more vapors these tornado-hurricane-and-thunder-clouds traps, - and the darker the clouds gets, - the lighter these thunder clouds gets ? – Is this what you are saying ?
• And therefore the expression “heavy thunderclouds” is misunderstood, the right expression should have been light thunder clouds ? – Is this what you mean ?

Yehh Yehh Yehh - is this a new creeds from a new scientific sect ?

 

[MRC_Hans]

A quite day matter from all direction will move towards the center.
This will start ration. If the eastern jet wind blow above the COG actually also this will reinforce the process, - because wind circling upwards can then fast escape.

Gibberish.

I think we have been that though many times.
Matters sucks space from all direction.

No.

Ohh really,(!) - which ?

Chaos theory. Don't go there, it is over your head.

Wrong,
lf cold and warm molecyles collides temperature merges and the heat/energy “disappears” out in the blue.

No. And this is not what happens in a thundercloud.

Clouds, - forms when varm air vapour rises (a certain place), - vapor condensate due to colder air, - this will continue so long warm vapors is rising, - whereby the mass of the vapors content per m³ increase, exactly like 1+1 = 2 and 2+1 = 3
This process can also be further increased when rising winds traps / prevents rain it to fall.

Wrong. More warm, moist air can't 'move into' the air already there. What it will do is push the other air further upwards, but there is no way it can sort of concentrate the water. Of course, once rain starts to fall down through the rising air, there will temporarily be more water there.

How do you define a “drop of rain?”

What is your problem with the expression?

Hans to make a long cow stupid story short, - do I understand you right?

Bjarne, you don't understand me or anybody else right.

You believe:

That the tornado-hurricane-and-thunder-clouds traps the vapors right?

No. The vapors are already there.

And therefore these get gradually more black proportional with the trapped vapors right?.

No. They just seem black because they are so thick.
And because the vapors are lighter than air, then the conclusion is; - the more vapors these tornado-hurricane-and-thunder-clouds traps, - and the darker the clouds gets, - the lighter these thunder clouds gets ? – Is this what you are saying ?

No, you haven't grasped a thing.

And therefore the expression “heavy thunderclouds” is misunderstood, the right expression should have been light thunder clouds ? – Is this what you mean ?

No. There is nothing wrong with the expression, it just does not have anything to do with the weight.

Bjarne, how do you think the air rises inside a cloud? What makes it rise?
What makes hot air rise? Hello? Try to think!

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

Chaos theory. Don't go there, it is over your head.

I prefer the expression: disparate chaos science.

Wrong. More warm, moist air can't 'move into' the air already there.

Wrong, how can you explain, the further you reach the center of a hurricane, the more rain.
Notice the hurricane in its center can reach an altitude of 10 km.

What it will do is push the other air further upwards, but there is no way it can sort of concentrate the water.

Rising warm air/vapors under the clouds and strong wind towards the low-pressure center can push vapour further inwards as well as upwards.

Of course, once rain starts to fall down through the rising air, there will temporarily be more water there.

And where do you believe that huge amount of water in the center comes from?

No. There is nothing wrong with the expression; it just does not have anything to do with the weight.

So your believe a heavy thundercloud is really not heavy? – It should have been light thunderclouds, and the air around without vapors / rain is heavy

Bjarne, how do you think the air rises inside a cloud? What makes it rise?
What makes hot air rise? Hello? Try to think!

Hello what do you believe a heavy cloud is?
Where do you believe HUGE rainfall comes from?
What do you believe happens with the vapors in 10 km altitude?
Why do you think vapors is reaching very large altitude.
Why do you think sooner or later that vapors/water begins to fall,
Try to begin to think.

When the energy is out the buoyancy is gone. – This happens long before vapors reach 10 km altitude.

Do you know a tornado can lift a cow, - it doesn't happen because of the energy of the cow, - but because of air under and around the cow push / pulls it upwards.

Now imaging 1.000.000 cows are lifted up to 10 km altitude, - do you also believe these cows are lighter than air?

Because these are rising?

And when it begins to rains with 1.000.000.000 Kg. cows, (when the upwards moving winds calms down), -will you still believe it has nothing to do with the mass of the cows or gravity ?

I mean if the 1.000.000.000 Kg. cows really are lighter than air, - then I believe that these cows never should have fall down on Earth (again).

But you know there is huge difference between cow and human logic, I belive there is not much to do about it. But I am sure cows prefer to be on the Earth.

 

[Paul]

I prefer the expression: disparate chaos science.

Is that so that you can pretend you mean something different when people point out that you don't know what you are talking about?

Wrong, how can you explain, the further you reach the center of a hurricane, the more rain.

Really? That would be news to everyone else.

Notice the hurricane in its center can reach an altitude of 10 km.

They can also reach 17.98km (Wilma).

Do you have a point?

And where do you believe that huge amount of water in the center comes from?

I'd really like to know where you think all the rain in the eye comes from.

So your believe a heavy thundercloud is really not heavy?

It's not a question of belief, things that float in air aren't heavy.

It should have been light thunderclouds, and the air around without vapors / rain is heavy

Constantly displaying what I'll generously call deliberate ignorance only increases the impressions that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Hello what do you believe a heavy cloud is?

It is a term for the appearance of clouds that is understood by even the smallest baby cow.

Where do you believe HUGE rainfall comes from?

The same place ordinary rain comes from.

What do you believe happens with the vapors in 10 km altitude?
Why do you think vapors is reaching very large altitude.
Why do you think sooner or later that vapors/water begins to fall,

Why don't you look it up, you might learn something.

Try to begin to think.

Quite.

 

[Bjarne]

It's not a question of belief; things that float in air aren't heavy.

Right now it is raining here
It did so the whole day
So far I can see the rain drop is not "floating in the air"
I believe mother cow out on the farmer’s field feels the same truth.

Try to google translate this danish / english it is about huge hailstone >>
Det sker ved at hagl der skydes ovenud af skyen pga. kraftige opvinde, trækkes ind igen i bunden og får én tur til. Med store hagl kan det kun forekomme når vindene er endog meget kraftige.
Øhhh, the same happen to rain right ? and maybe also with cows right ?
The atmosphere is HEAVIER when it is full of vapor, rain hailstones and cows, simple simple it that.

 

[Paul]

Right now it is raining here
It did so the whole day
So far I can see the rain drop is not "floating in the air"

Apparently you still can't understand that no one is saying that rain floats in air.

Try to google translate this danish / english it is about huge hailstone >>

It seems to be saying something about very strong winds blowing large hailstones.

Øhhh, the same happen to rain right ?

Yes, wind can blow rain.

and maybe also with cows right ?

Yes, and with cows; very strong winds can also completely remove structures down to the foundations.

Do you have a point yet?

The atmosphere is HEAVIER when it is full of vapor

No it isn't, water vapour is less dense than dry air.

rain hailstones and cows, simple simple it that.

Yes Bjarne, rain drops, hailstones, cows, dinosaurs and kittens are heavier than air.

Honestly, my four-year-old niece would have grasped this before now.

 

[Bjarne]

Yes Bjarne, rain drops, hailstones, cows, dinosaurs and kittens are heavier than air.

Now

1.
What have the biggest mass, then next biggest etc...?

• 10 m³air
• 10 m³ 100 % vapor saturated air.
• 9 m³ air + 1 cow ?
• 9 m³ air + 1 m³ water

We assume the air always do have the same temperature in this example.

2.
Is it true or false that hurricanes, tornadoes and thunder systems are causing heavy cold air to sink, and hence cold and warm air to mix?

3.
Now let say above you head, a hurricane carries 1.000.000.000 Kg water that soon will fall - do you deny huge amount of water is carried by a hurricane?

4.
Tell me the difference seen from a gravity perspective if a hurricane carries 1.000.000.000 Kg rain or 1.000.000.000 Kg cows?

5.
Would it make any difference somewhere in the sky (except the sight)?

I mean mass is mass right?

And the sky is the sky, and air is air , and rain is rain and cows are cows - or ?

And I hope we also agree that the cows are 97 % water right ?

 

[Reality Check]

Amen

No - science: Tropical cyclogenesis
Religion is the willfully ignorant fantasies of a crank:
The fatal flaws and basic ignorance in Bjarne's ideas in his threads
(original full list to which more points have been linked)

(Amen to you and your pet cow logic)