Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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However, I do think the Hobbit's discovery brings us to a place where the unlikeliness of a creature like BF existing somewhere in our world decreases and seems less far-fetched than it once was. I realize that seems contradictory so I'll do my best to try and get across where I'm coming from.
I don't see how the discovery of HF, or any other extinct hominid for that matter, in any way "decreases" the "unlikeliness of a creature like BF existing". This is akin to saying that the discovery of an extinct horse makes more likely the existance of unicorns. It does not follow one upon the other.
Though I earlier overstated myself the discovery of the Hobbits is, nonetheless, of immense significance to the anthropological community and has been challenging many commonly held ideas.
Of course the discovery is very significant, but I am not certain that I would say that the discovery is challenging "many commonly held ideas". What ideas do you suppose these are and how are they challenged?
Some here have stated HF has little impact on our family tree and that may well be true considering only our direct lineage. Metullus likened it to finding a long lost cousin, unlooked for but not unexpected. While I agree with Metullus on many other points he raised, here, I'm inclined to disagree. IMO, finding the Hobbits is not the fortuitous discovery of a long lost cousin but rather the discovery of a very recently (most likely) departed, very weird cousin, the finding of which came out of the blue.
I did not mean to suggest that anyone was expecting to discover this particular cousin, only that it was not unexpected that other homo species existed once upon a time and that these might, someday, be discovered. I do not understand what weirdness has to do with anything.
On top of that the extent of the weirdness of said cousin has yet to be established. We have not even established if this weirdness came about solely on and was limited only to Flores or began prior to the arrival and they may have gone elsewhere.
What weirdness? What is the relevance?
I have found nothing yet that has indicated that any aspect of the discovery of HF was expected, but maybe I'm wrong.
The discovery of HF was perhaps unexpected, the eventual discovery of another extinct homo was not.
But maybe, just maybe, in the seed of the monster social contruct there was at least at some point, somewhere, maybe even now, some element of truth. Like finding some mushy bones in Bai Lingua Caves we find some large, abnormal looking jawbone on a mountain or in a forest somewhere in the PNW or China similarily recent and a whole new set of possiblities are opened up.
Finding bones on Flores does not change the fact that no BF bones have been found in the PNW; neither does it make such a discovery more likely. The discovery of a new sauropod fossil in Montana does not make it any more likeley that a live Apatasaur is wondering the jungles of Zaire.
 
Excellent points Metullus,
Let me see if I can address them without being able to quote or space paragraphs properly. 1. HF is not just another extinct homo. It's not akin to an extinct horse and unicorns. I mean, barring the highly improbable chance that we find them running around in some jungle corner now, they ARE another extinct homo. However, before we found HF paleoanthropologists would debate endlessly (and still do) about where HS Neanderthalis fits in with modern human lineage. We find HF and suddenly we're dealing with a member of the genus which is so drastically different in comparison to other roughly contemporary members and, on top of that, has survived within a fart of modern times. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------2. Do you really think a comparison with a new species of horse and unicorns is applicable? I'm simply trying to say that a recently extinct little guy makes the possibility of a recently extinct big guy also considerable. Whether they're actually around now is irrelevant to what I'm saying. We're humans, we're going to have stories of creatures like us in form but other as a matter of course. The mess to try and stay away from is where truth and imagination meet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------3. Challenges to our current thinking presented by HF- A) Variability of our genus. B) Brain capacity vs intelligence. C) Human linear evolution. D) Out-of-Africa vs Multiregional Speciation.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I know you didn't mean to imply the specific discovery of HF was anticipated. Any paleoanthropologist worth their salt sees the existing fossil record as a very incomplete patchwork. They focus on areas which have yielded or have good reason to yeild fossils.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------4. Weirdness. Well, I used the word weird just to be funny. But really, is HF not weird? It's tiny! It was a little homo taking down little elephants. But what I was really getting at is that while we debate whether Neanderthals had the capacity for language we must now look at HF on Flores and consider that as a remote island how did they get there? They didn't swim. They didn't ride a log. They most likely got there on some constructed craft which then forces us to consider how they did that. Whether or not at that time they were big Homo Erectus' or little HF's do you think they put some bamboo rafts together with a lot of grunting and gesturing? We have no idea yet how much HF could do. Was not Neanderthalis supposed to be more advanced than either HE or HF?------------------------------------------------------------------------------5. No, you're absolutely right. Finding HF bones does not in anyway make finding BF bones more likely. We never expected to find HF bones but there are those who have wanted to find BF bones. However, finding the bones of a member of our genus that are highly divergent from the rest do increase the possibility of other divergences existing.
 
I'm simply trying to say that a recently extinct little guy makes the possibility of a recently extinct big guy also considerable.

How, precisely, does this make the possibility of an extinct big guy more likely? Are you suggesting that HF was an ancestor of Bigfoot? If not, then how would knowing a small guy exists have any impact whatsoever on the probability of fossils of a large hominid?

I think the comparison of horses and unicorns is an apt one. Nobody had ever postulated the existence of wee little humanoids as a condition of the existence of Bigfoot, to my knowledge, so why does the discovery of HF have any bearing on it? We found a neat thing, but the existence of the neat thing does not make other neat things any more or less probable unless they're directly predicated upon it.

I think you're falling into a romantic trap here--the "wow, there's so much we don't know" trap. And it's easy to fall into, because it's true in many ways--there are scads of things we don't know, and I suspect this won't be the last odd hominid we find. But merely because you are now more aware of how much we don't know doesn't in any way change the likelihood of the existence of a big extinct primate. We're all wowed by the Hobbits. It's freakin' awesome. But the fact that is it awesome does not have ANY influence on the statistical likelihood of an unrelated species of primate existing in a totally different area.

Just because one cool thing exists, it does not mean that other things that would be cool are more likely to exist!
 
OK,
Huntster you keep doing the vague thing and I'm going to try and answer this. UrsulaV, of course I'm not suggesting HF to be an ancestor for BF. I don't know how you got that but let's stay away from that. Now HF is supposed to have come from Homo Erectus of which Meganthropus is also thought to have descended. Mega was huge, no way around it. The point is HF introduces a previously unthought of variability into the homo genus. HE is the source but that doesn't change the fact that previously unknown variability is there. Therefore, the existence of the small (HE) and the existence of the large (Mega) simply show that, while not in direct relation to modern humans, size variability was definitely going on.
 
Because "How does this make the possibility of a big extinct guy even more considerable?" was an awkward sentence construction and I rejected it on aesthetic grounds.

You may have "rejected it" in your mind, but in the forum you changed it from "also considerable" to "more likely":

...Originally Posted by UrsulaV :
Originally Posted by kitakaze :
I'm simply trying to say that a recently extinct little guy makes the possibility of a recently extinct big guy also considerable.


How, precisely, does this make the possibility of an extinct big guy more likely?......
 
Excellent points Metullus,
Let me see if I can address them without being able to quote or space paragraphs properly. 1. HF is not just another extinct homo. It's not akin to an extinct horse and unicorns. I mean, barring the highly improbable chance that we find them running around in some jungle corner now, they ARE another extinct homo.
Indeed, another extinct homo along with habilis/rudolfensis, erectus, ergaster, and heidelbergensis to name a few off the top of my head. What does interest me is the idea that HF is descended from erectus or perhaps ergaster. My point is that one cannot, I think, extrapolate the existance of BF from the fact that we have discovered yet another extinct member of the family, any moreso than the discovery of another extinct relative of the horse increases the probabaility of unicorns existing. Maybe a better analogy is the saurapod/jungle dinosaur one I used in my last post.
However, before we found HF paleoanthropologists would debate endlessly (and still do) about where HS Neanderthalis fits in with modern human lineage.
I think the consensus today is that Neanderthal was an evolutionary dead-end and not an ancestor to Modern Humans (DNA testing has had a lot to do with estblishing the current consensus.) Whatever the case, HF is not likely to have much of an impact on that argument.

We find HF and suddenly we're dealing with a member of the genus which is so drastically different in comparison to other roughly contemporary members and, on top of that, has survived within a fart of modern times.
Which facts make HF very interesting indeed, but do not, I think, bear much on the BF debate.

Do you really think a comparison with a new species of horse and unicorns is applicable? I'm simply trying to say that a recently extinct little guy makes the possibility of a recently extinct big guy also considerable. Whether they're actually around now is irrelevant to what I'm saying.
But there have been recently extinct large homo species: look at Neanderthal, 35K - 40K YBP. Are there there others - it is entirely possible. What has this to do with a 1000lb, bipedal apeman in Norhern California?

3. Challenges to our current thinking presented by HF- A) Variability of our genus. B) Brain capacity vs intelligence. C) Human linear evolution. D) Out-of-Africa vs Multiregional Speciation.
The variability of species within our genus is not, I think, unsettling: we have significant variation within our own species, and drastic variation with a genus is not unknown.

I know that in general brain size is an indication of the intellegence of a species, other data not being available, and that the relatively small brain size of HF might give us pause if we are to assume that HF was highly intelligent. I do not know if that assumption is reasonable, though. I will withhold judgement.

The discovery of HF does not seem to have any impact upon either what we know or believe about human evolution or the various speciation models. Indeed, as HF appears to be an offshoot of h. erectus it would fit into virtually all of the models.
 
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OK,
Huntster you keep doing the vague thing and I'm going to try and answer this.......

Wow, are you ever stepping onto dangerous ground!

You may find yourself getting "vague" in the near future........

Before treading further, I suggest searching this thread for the word "gigantopithecus". See if you can digest the hostility from some here regarding a huge primate's jawbone found in China relating to possibilities and considerations regarding the sasquatch phenomenon here (or in Asia, for that matter).

Finding giant and/or tiny primate fossils has no bearing on the discussion among these "scientists".
 
You may have "rejected it" in your mind, but in the forum you changed it from "also considerable" to "more likely":

Excuse me? Did I put quotes around "more likely" in my statement in order to seem like I was quoting the initial poster? Somehow, I don't think I did! In fact, let me look--no! I didn't! At no point did I claim I was quoting the initial poster! Lookit that!

Amazing how that worked.

Are you just trying to be disagreeable to make up for the fact that you actually agreed with me in that other thread? I understand if you are, it was a shock for me, too.
 
....Are you just trying to be disagreeable to make up for the fact that you actually agreed with me in that other thread? I understand if you are, it was a shock for me, too.

Nope.

I'm just amazed at how often someone will make a statement, which someone else will change to use as a launching pad to attempt to diminish what the original poster was trying to say.
 
OK,
Huntster you keep doing the vague thing and I'm going to try and answer this. UrsulaV, of course I'm not suggesting HF to be an ancestor for BF. I don't know how you got that but let's stay away from that. Now HF is supposed to have come from Homo Erectus of which Meganthropus is also thought to have descended. Mega was huge, no way around it. The point is HF introduces a previously unthought of variability into the homo genus. HE is the source but that doesn't change the fact that previously unknown variability is there. Therefore, the existence of the small (HE) and the existence of the large (Mega) simply show that, while not in direct relation to modern humans, size variability was definitely going on.

*grin* I don't actually think you were saying HF was an ancestor to BF, but that's the only way I could guess that the one could be construed as increasing the likelihood of the existence of the other.

The thing is, I don't think size variability towards big primates was actually all that unthought of. Towards the small size, absolutely! Nobody was thinkin' hobbits! But there HAVE been well known big primates theorized well before the discovery of hobbits--Gigantopithecus, everybody's favorite monster ape, for example. (How big Gigantopithecus may have been is still hotly debated, of course--but that it was being debated at all, would seem to me to indicate that the notion of big primates was definitely on the table already.)

So that primates could go big, I don't think was actually in question. Small was a surprise, but big's been fairly well thrashed out. When the Hobbits were discovered, I think there was surprise that humanoids appeared to be engaged in the phenomenon of island dwarfism, specifically, which we'd previously thought didn't affect us. We've had plenty of theories about big humans before--I just don't think that the Hobbits had any earth-shaking repercussions there.

I guess what I still don't understand is the mechanism by which you'd think that the discovery of HF makes BF any more or less plausible. I think HF is the neatest thing to come down the paleoevolutionary pike in a very long time--we may agree on that!--but I guess I don't understand how you're thinking that makes BF more likely.
 
Nope.

I'm just amazed at how often someone will make a statement, which someone else will change to use as a launching pad to attempt to diminish what the original poster was trying to say.

Yes, yes, it's a tragedy. My heart bleeds purple peanut butter for you.
 
That's surprising!

I figured your heart would bleed stuff of a greenish hue..........

What, I'm a Vulcan? *checks ears in mirror* Well, I suppose there are advantages--don't make me use the Vulcan Death Grip on you!
 
What, I'm a Vulcan? *checks ears in mirror* Well, I suppose there are advantages--don't make me use the Vulcan Death Grip on you!

Well, I know I wouldn't want to be the recipient of the Death Grip, and in most cases I'd be much more receptive of a Mind Meld, but after reading your posts for the past few months, I'm not sure there would be much of a difference......................;)
 
Well, I know I wouldn't want to be the recipient of the Death Grip, and in most cases I'd be much more receptive of a Mind Meld, but after reading your posts for the past few months, I'm not sure there would be much of a difference......................;)

Ha! You've proved your lack of geek cred, my friend--for there is no Vulcan Death Grip!
 
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