Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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For instance, I think Meldrum is nuts with his midtarsal break ideas. He is going to look pretty damn silly if bigfoot has no such foot.....

Not nearly as silly as those who insist that bigfoot doesn't even exist.

... I won't look nearly as bad if I am wrong, since I am not an "expert" and less is expected of me.....

Less is expected from you because you clearly have nothing but doubt to offer.

... Bigfoot's discovery will almost certainly be a bigger tragedy for some believers than for most skeptics, imo.

Most skeptics correctly take the default position that it simply hasn't been proven to exist....

Yet some insist on relating these creatures with phenomenon like the Easter Bunny (see above post).

... A body or other proof merely provides what we wanted....

And just who is it that gives a damn about what you "want", and why is it that they are suppose to care about your "wants"?
 
...I think it's pretty much a given that throughout Canada and America that we're familiar from childhood on whatever level with Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny. I would like to ask, did it take your elders admission to discover their fictionality?.....

Who says Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny are "fictional"?

I learned that they are just not as they were portrayed to me during childhood.

They "changed" when my other childhood friends told me so (damned skeptics!). It turned out that my parents were Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny.

Later, when I became the father of young children, I discovered that I had become Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny.

I have a very strong suspicion that my children will become Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny.

They exist; just not as originally portrayed.
 
I propose for the purpose of debate a new term. Semnatics plus maniac - a Semaniac! Let's not be semaniacs, it's just sticky.
 
....I'm fascinated (sincerely) by the fact that neither BF nor evolution interfere with your faith.....

Faith evolves just like everything else, as long as it isn't thrown out the first time a member of the clergy pisses you off.

...However, it seems especially of late or maybe just here that your railing against "the scientific world" does not further the position that you expend (some, little?) effort to put forward....

Yeah, that's true. I think that's because I put forth opinions that most folks just don't like. That's fair.

I don't really like their opinions, either.

They can disregard me, and I can disregard them.

... You mention Copernicus and Galileo. Do you think in X years we'll hear the rally cry of, "Krantz/Meldrum was right, dude. He was riiiight!" Maybe not exactly those words but you get the drift...

I don't know. It depends on if they were right or not.

The reason I mentioned Copernicus and Galileo was mostly because of what their positions ended up doing to the Church's political power. (Actually, it was the Church's position on Copernicus and Galileo that costed them their political power).

I see science doing the same thing today with their "dogmas" that they call "theories".
 
Well that's the great thing about our 'dogmas' of gravity and evolution is that they're not static, are they? They're constantly, umm, evolving. I apologize in being deliberate in steering things back to Homo Floresiensis but it just seems to me to have particular relevance when considering the issue at hand. Just look at how it's rewriting the textbooks, especially in bowling over our current models of human evolution. 'The Hobbit', if it is well and truly departed, only dropped off the scene between 8 -13K years ago which is hardly yesterday in evolutionary terms. If it is gone, the speculation is that a volcanic eruption was the culprit. Kinda makes you wonder how thing would be were there no eruption. I don't want to say that HF demands us to arbitrarily give credence to BF but it does, undoubtedly, put things in a new perspective. I think that's one of the great joys of not only paleoanthropology but science in general- thinking about what bombshell next awaits us. That said, I'm very curious about what that means (if anything) in context of this so-far 89 page discussion because it seems kicking around the authenticity of the PGF (I see an animal, not a costume- can't change it no matter how hard I try) or reminders of the burden of proof (obviously on BF advocates) was tired from the get go.
 
Well that's the great thing about our 'dogmas' of gravity and evolution is that they're not static, are they? They're constantly, umm, evolving. I apologize in being deliberate in steering things back to Homo Floresiensis but it just seems to me to have particular relevance when considering the issue at hand. Just look at how it's rewriting the textbooks, especially in bowling over our current models of human evolution. 'The Hobbit', if it is well and truly departed, only dropped off the scene between 8 -13K years ago which is hardly yesterday in evolutionary terms. If it is gone, the speculation is that a volcanic eruption was the culprit. Kinda makes you wonder how thing would be were there no eruption. I don't want to say that HF demands us to arbitrarily give credence to BF but it does, undoubtedly, put things in a new perspective. I think that's one of the great joys of not only paleoanthropology but science in general- thinking about what bombshell next awaits us. That said, I'm very curious about what that means (if anything) in context of this so-far 89 page discussion because it seems kicking around the authenticity of the PGF (I see an animal, not a costume- can't change it no matter how hard I try) or reminders of the burden of proof (obviously on BF advocates) was tired from the get go.
I do not see how the discovery of HF is "bowling over our current models of human evolution." At the moment it appears that HF was an evolutionary dead-end as was Neanderthal - its chief claim to fame being that HF coexisted with Homo Sapiens longer than did Neanderthal. Its pretty cool that HF may have existed even into historical times (a BIG maybe) but it does not change our family tree - except that we migt now have identified a long lost cousin of sorts; something unlooked for perhaps, but not unexpected.

Likewise, I do not see how it brings new perspective to BF cryptozoology. It does demonstrate, however, that it is possible to uncover evidence of something for which one is not searching; and, that evidence, even non-fossilized bones, can survive thousands of years and be found reasonably intact. Moreover, I can see no evidence of a circling-of-the-wagons by anthropologists in defense of any existing paradigm - a reaction in the scientific community that would be predicted by BFer conventional wisdom. Quite the contrary, in fact.
 
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As Metullus said, the Hobbits change very little our family tree. Its dicovery is just an evidence that one myth on wild men may have a been based on an extinct species previously unknown to science.

A little exercise:
Ask yourself if the hypothesis "Bigfeet are real creatures" can be falsified or not.
 
As Metullus said, the Hobbits change very little our family tree. Its dicovery is just an evidence that one myth on wild men may have a been based on an extinct species previously unknown to science.

A little exercise:
Ask yourself if the hypothesis "Bigfeet are real creatures" can be falsified or not.
Step #1. Collect every living organism and place them behind a fence with 1 gate.

Step #2. Release each NON-BIGFOOT organism, one at a time, through the gate.

Step #3. When there are no NON-BIGFOOT organisms in the enclosure, check the enclosure for BIGFEETS.

Step #4. If there are no BIGFEETS in the enclosure, BIGFEETS don't exist.

What's the problem? Perfectly feasible, no?
 
Its dicovery is just an evidence that one myth on wild men may have a been based on an extinct species previously unknown to science.

I think this definitely needs to be re-emphasized. There's been way too much a blithe acceptance that the orang whatsit myths were OF COURSE based on the Hobbits among certain communities, and I don't think conclusive proof of that has been established in any way.

For one thing, 13K years is a long ass time for an oral tradition to be established. It's not impossible, but it certainly has yet to be confirmed that this is the case here.

I am not entirely sure, for that matter, whether rock-solid confirmation of such a myth origin is even possible. It may be, or it may not be--I'd need more data before I could even begin to make a call there--but as they say, correlation does not neccessarily equal causation. We need more data, and until it's in, we should be very leery of any definite statement that the myths of the area were notably influenced by the existence of the Hobbits.
 
Likewise, I do not see how it brings new perspective to BF cryptozoology. It does demonstrate, however, that it is possible to uncover evidence of something for which one is not searching; and, that evidence, even non-fossilized bones, can survive thousands of years and be found reasonably intact. QUOTE]

Yes, I'm afraid that here in Washington state we have Kennewick man but not yet Kennewick Bigfoot.
 
Likewise, I do not see how it brings new perspective to BF cryptozoology. It does demonstrate, however, that it is possible to uncover evidence of something for which one is not searching; and, that evidence, even non-fossilized bones, can survive thousands of years and be found reasonably intact. QUOTE]

Yes, I'm afraid that here in Washington state we have Kennewick man but not yet Kennewick Bigfoot.
Wit the advent of HF you may soon be inundated with sightings of Kennewick Littlefoot.
 
First, 2 apologies- 1. I'm sorry for the continued lack of spacing, I'm having keyboard issues. 2. I made an overstatement by saying that the Hobbit is 'bowling over our current models of human evolution.' I'll be mindful of that in the future. I also want to restate that the Hobbits discovery does not demand that we give credence to BF. I don't want to come off as a bf'er trying to use the Hobbit as superficial support for BF because that just doesn't work. However, I do think the Hobbit's discovery brings us to a place where the unlikeliness of a creature like BF existing somewhere in our world decreases and seems less far-fetched than it once was. I realize that seems contradictory so I'll do my best to try and get across where I'm coming from.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------In an earlier post I used HF in a hypothetical situation mentioning ebu gobo and orand pendek (I like UrsulaV's orang whatsit better). For the record let me just say that Correa Neto and others have quite aptly shown here that, as much as bf advocates continue to try, submiting myths as evidence, while maybe tempting, is an excercise in futility. It's at least somewhat problematic when trying to correlate the Hobbits with gogo and whatsit considering that the Hobbits were highly intelligent, possessed technology of high quality, and it seems may have also possessed language. I hope I did not give the impression of trying to make such a correlation.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Though I earlier overstated myself the discovery of the Hobbits is, nonetheless, of immense significance to the anthropological community and has been challenging many commonly held ideas. Some here have stated HF has little impact on our family tree and that may well be true considering only our direct lineage. Metullus likened it to finding a long lost cousin, unlooked for but not unexpected. While I agree with Metullus on many other points he raised, here, I'm inclined to disagree. IMO, finding the Hobbits is not the fortuitous discovery of a long lost cousin but rather the discovery of a very recently (most likely) departed, very weird cousin, the finding of which came out of the blue. On top of that the extent of the weirdness of said cousin has yet to be established. We have not even established if this weirdness came about solely on and was limited only to Flores or began prior to the arrival and they may have gone elsewhere. I have found nothing yet that has indicated that any aspect of the discovery of HF was expected, but maybe I'm wrong.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------This brings one to wonder if there had been any other weirdo cousins lurking about out there. To me this certainly puts the family tree in a new light and makes me wonder just how many variant branches there may be.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------But, here is where it comes back to bigfoot for me. I've held out for the possibility of such a creature and tried to be open minded but it seems increasingly difficult. I got BF problems, lots of BF problems (why do I feel like that's gonna come back and bite me in the a$$). I can sum them up mostly as this- A lack of good, solid evidence coupled with the global nature of BF phenomenom indicates to me (and, let's be honest, most everyone else) a social construct at work. That being said, while the door for BF is closing on me it has not yet shut. A little hairy man running around until recently and maybe (BIG maybe) even in to historical times makes a big hairy man in a similar context not so impossible. For the Meldrums and the Krantzs with there Giganto this, midtarsal that, and all the BF websites till Kingdom come there's a lot of talking out the bottom going around. But maybe, just maybe, in the seed of the monster social contruct there was at least at some point, somewhere, maybe even now, some element of truth. Like finding some mushy bones in Bai Lingua Caves we find some large, abnormal looking jawbone on a mountain or in a forest somewhere in the PNW or China similarily recent and a whole new set of possiblities are opened up. For me it would be those who pounce on it and say, "Here, Skoftic #$%&! MUWAHAHAHA!! Here's your friggin' bigfoot!" who would be the truly ignorant.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------If I seem a little shizo on BF, it's because I'm still trying to separate the BS and I'm not sure social construct and hoaxing explains everything. This does, however, seem the right place to do it.
 
However, I do think the Hobbit's discovery brings us to a place where the unlikeliness of a creature like BF existing somewhere in our world decreases and seems less far-fetched than it once was.

I think it actually makes bigfoot a bit more far-fetched than it already was. We should have found some sort of evidence by now.

In my mind, each time we find a new living animal, or the remains of a previously unknown animal, it shows how strange it is that we haven't found similar evidence of bigfoot, past or present.
 
LTC8K6,
In a way I have to agree. Agree to the extent that given the how far and wide bigfoot is reported we still don't have acceptable proof. Bf'ers endless band-aid excuses aside, a 7ft+, bipedal primate across the hemispheres continually eluding discovery is a hard pill to swallow. But that also makes me think about the circumstances, especially for the bigger ones, that were involved in the discovery of those animals.
 
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