Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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Just to make sure we don't miss another admitted hoaxer....

Page 32 of 'Big Footprints' by Grover S. Krantz 1992 2nd paragraph:

'The shape of a footprint can be dug into the ground with the fingers and/or a hand tool, the interior pressed flat, and it can then be photographed or cast in plaster. My first footprint cast was made by a student in just this manner (Fig.10). Roger Patterson told me he did this once in order to get a movie of himself pouring a plaster cast for the documentary he was making. (A few days later, he filmed the actual Sasquatch; See Chapter 4).'
 
Okay, so we don't know which cast is being poured here, the real or the hoaxed.

Does anyone find all the water in Bluff Creek odd in these stills? Is there water visible in Bluff Creek in the PGF?

2ndReelStills.jpg
 
Well, we KNOW he hoaxed the film (not as a prank either), we KNOW that he lived in Bossburg both during and prior to the hub-bub over the prints, and we KNOW he was the one finding tidbits to keep Dahinden interested. Why is it so hard to believe he may have hoaxed the prints as well?

RayG

"On page 56 of Dr. Grover Krantz's 'Bigfoot Sasquatch Evidence' book, it was mentioned that "some pathology" might have deformed the right foot of our crippled individual.

It has only four toes-the middle one is either missing or somehow raised above the other four, which have spread to fill the gap. More significant is the distortion of the entire foot, which is bent radically inward from the heel. Krantz calculated the natural adaptations in foot structure and stride necessary to enable a large, heavy animal with such an anatomical deformity to walk. "It was right on," he says. "Such an animal would have had to walk exactly as this one did: stride, angle of foot placement, distribution of weight -- it was all exactly as it had to be."

These footprints, in fact, were what converted Krantz from a Sasquatch skeptic to a believer.

"Before I examined these prints, I would have given you ten to one odds that the whole thing was a hoax," he says. "But there is no way that everything could have been tied together so perfectly in a fake."

"Various suggestions have been made as to what that pathology might be, with 'club foot' being the most popular opinion. I had not the expertise, time, nor the inclination to pursue this matter any further. Fortunately Jeff Meldrum did have all those attributes and has provided us with the likely answer. He researched the pertinent literature and found that metatarsus adductus is almost certainly the ailment in question.

This is a congenital condition, also known as 'skew foot,' where both heel and forefoot are twisted inward — just as in our crippled footprint. Metatarsus adductus usually occurs in about one per thousand children in varying degrees, usually in just one foot, and often improves over time without treatment.

(Interestingly, in one detailed report of fifteen patients it was bilateral in seven cases, affected only the left foot in one, and only the right foot in the remaining seven.) In any case, the actual bones are little affected, and they are simply forced apart as I had postulated originally. This does not necessarily make my foot-bone reconstruction exactly accurate, but it does at least offer some general support."

© Krantz, Grover S. 'Bigfoot Sasquatch Evidence' (1999, B.C.: Hancock House, pp. 298-299)

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/stories/bossburg.htm

Did Marx &/or Wallace fake all these too?

"The huge number of tracks that have been found and the remoteness of the areas where they have been discovered argue against large-scale faking. Some of these tracks extended for distances of three-quarters of a mile up to several miles with thousands of individual footprints. A series of three thousand footprints, each 16 inches long, was found on a logging road in the Cascade Mountains. On another occasion a long line of prints were discovered on Powder Mountain, about 65 miles north of Vancouver, by a man flying low over the mountain in a helicopter. The tracks were 4,800 feet up the mountainside and ran for five miles before disappearing into ice caves at the foot of a glacier (Hunter 1993)."

http://home.clara.net/rfthomas/bf_prints.html

Check out the video.

Typical stride is four to six feet.

About those variations:

"Finally, there is the question of how the fakers manage to produce footprints that are so biologically convincing (Napier 1974, p.125). If they were all the same a hoax would automatically be suspected but Sasquatch footprints vary — some anatomical features are constant, but they are sufficiently different for individuals to be recognised by their footprints."

http://home.clara.net/rfthomas/bf_prints.html
 
Okay, so we don't know which cast is being poured here, the real or the hoaxed.

Does anyone find all the water in Bluff Creek odd in these stills? Is there water visible in Bluff Creek in the PGF?

2ndReelStills.jpg

Been all over this, including the "sundial" with a link to the BFF thread on it. Roger cast the two best tracks after the filming. The stills are from the second reel, are they not?

The water rose during the rainstorm, didn't it?
 
Just to make sure we don't miss another admitted hoaxer....

Page 32 of 'Big Footprints' by Grover S. Krantz 1992 2nd paragraph:

How is doing a reenactment for a documentary a hoax? P&G went to California with a specific intent to film some of the tracks that were being reported. Most were too deteriorated to be of use by the time they got there.

If Patterson was trying to fake tracks, why on earth would he tell Krantz about it? How is this an admission of hoaxing?
 
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The initial Bossburg trackway was 1/2 mile long, not miles long.

The other set of tracks may not even be those of the cripplefoot.

There was an earlier sighting of two individuals in the area.
 
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A lot of the comments here are worthy of attention, since they point at specific weak spots in the data used to build the hypothesis in question, among wich the most important one is "bigfeet are real". The avaliable data is inconclusive at best.


Dr. Meldrum was referring specifically to comments about "fakes" on his webpage. I PMd him a sample and he responded on BFF. He said it wasn't worth his time and I agreed it's a waste of time - I had one particularly opinionated poster in mind (he seems to have verified my opinion since). I suppose it sounded like I meant the whole board.

So, you've seen the PGF on TV and never, to my knowlege seen any casts firsthand but you're qualified to state the available data is "inconclusive at best"?

Have I ever wrote that you "claim to be an atheist woman who once lived at PNW and thinks bigfeet are real"?

Would there be anything wrong with stating that?

And note that I offered you a way to check if I am or not a poseur. Your next move will be to?

Ignore that.

We've been over all this before, including my objections to your tendency to misquote me, which you owned in one case, and what I take at times to be arrogance and condescension on your part (calling me biased, e.g., for trying to confine my comments to an area I knew well), which I've stated to you on this board, not TBFF. Why do you insist on rehashing it?

I'd rather talk about why Meldrum seems to think you don't know what you're talking about on the foot argument.

Most of times I post at threads where I think I can somehow contribute. And I learned a lot about many issues -from the nature of counsioussness to quantum mechanics- here at JREF. Call this place a waste of time is a prejudiced behavior. The standard fundamentalists and creduloids ususally consider this place as a waste of time, since they fail to obtain new converts here...

I've noticed we don't often resort to name calling and generalizations. I'm interested in countering misinformation, which is rampant on this board. Roger and Hunster seem to be doing that as well.

Perhaps we should just let wild claims and unsubtantialed assertions go unchallenged so that no one is asked to actually think.
 
That's fine, Hunster. Except that the Bossburg prints are an obvious hoax to others.

You don't think it's a bit suspicious that a film of a crippled bigfoot turns up around the time crippled bigfoot tracks show up?

I don't believe it for a minute. Anyone would think that was suspicious.

Who that actually saw them thought they were a hoax?

Marx was called in because of his known interest. He was on the Slick expedition. Evidently when things wound down he devised a way to "keep things going" and stay on the payroll. Green's animosity toward anything connected with Marx is certainly understandable given that he was duped. Bryne exposed Marx (and we all know Green's opinion of Bryne) after a couple of kids revealed the location of his filming. Do you really believe anyone so stupid as to fake a film in his own backyard was smart enough to pull off a hoax with the tracks? Since the tracks were from a cripple, of course he would include the crippled gait in his film. He produced a documentary of sorts too.

Wallace was inspired by actual events, but please read what Green had to say about Wallace's antics and the actions of his family after his death.
 
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I provided that link. Here it is again (Post #532).



Dfoot is reporting my words?

Let me guess; by PM?



Yes, those are my words.

Now go to Dfoot's post (#529, on the same link). Look at the figure in the photo.

That is the photo everybody is commenting on.

Is that the same image as what he posted in post #550?

No - I got those words from earlier in the thread (around page 75, I think), not from a PM.

My work net-nanny is not letting me go to your links because they are 'Occult' - the programs words, not mine of course.

Anyway I see the picture LTC8K6 posted below, where it appears Dfoot pasted Patty into a parking lot - I will wait to see the matching frame from the original film before I comment further.
 
It's an exact match to an alderfoot to me, Lu.

The fact that you don't have a picture of that particular alderfoot means nothing.

I tried to take up a collection for glasses, but no one would contribute.

The crack, split or whatever in one of Wallace's carved feet (he had three or four sets, as I recall), is not in the right place to match any photos of prints or photos that I know of. So, if they're not a match, it must be some other set of carved feet? Does it bother you that carved feet can't leave tracks showing midtarsal bends and articulating toes?
 
There you go, Dfoot. Just say you were making a documentary.... :D

That apparently allows you to hoax things, including bigfoot footprints, some of the best evidence known, in an area where a bigfoot was filmed.

The 1089(88?) footprint Bossburg trackway was 1/2 mile long, Lu.

If Patterson was trying to fake tracks, why on earth would he tell Krantz about it?

To explain an odd sequence of events on the film, such as Patterson casting prints before he filmed Patty. Patterson would have to explain that if it's on film, wouldn't he?

I am assuming the stills with the guys on horseback are the ones taken before Patty was filmed, so that makes the water level wrong to me. The assumption is that this is the second reel, but does anyone really know for sure? It could be from the first roll, and the casting could be the hoax for the documentary.

Is there something in the stills that proves they are from the second roll? As William Parcher pointed out, the shadows during the casting could well be wrong for the time frame of events given by P/G.

The second roll is usually reported as lost, anyway. Was it lost or not?
 
No - I got those words from earlier in the thread (around page 75, I think), not from a PM.

My work net-nanny is not letting me go to your links because they are 'Occult' - the programs words, not mine of course.

Anyway I see the picture LTC8K6 posted below, where it appears Dfoot pasted Patty into a parking lot - I will wait to see the matching frame from the original film before I comment further.

Post #550


Five toes - Saskets


Group: Members
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Member No.: 1,483



wolftrax -- Early on I'd been told that Heironimus claimed sticks were used in the forearms and other things. The truth is that he never said any such thing.

I did an overlay of his body onto the suit walking in the film. This is something that could have easily been done by anyone with an editing system. I don't think it was done because it was assumed that anyone could look at the suit walking and then watch Heironimus walk and see the obvious. I went the extra mile. I put a see-through Heironimus' body inside the suit as it walked. It is him. He does match.

Heironimus would have no experience with creature suits. He wouldn't know the smell of a suit that's been stuck in a closet for 6 months nor did he ever try to examine it the two times he says it was slid onto him. He has no more knowledge of the way the feet in creature suits are made than you do. Probably less. He just made his best guess about what he saw based on what he knows and what he was told. That's all.

The important thing is that he describes for us how it was put on in three sections. Most people who know nothing about suits would think it had a zipper like the one Morris used. It didn't. What Heironimus says actually shows that he was in the suit. His description is correct. That is how the pro level gorilla suits were made and put on. Morris heard from Heironimus that some sort of helmet was used and Heironimus said it felt like one of those old time football helmets with some kind of mouthpiece and mask on the front. What Morris came up with clearly shows the man had no clue about how gorilla suits worked. A check with Bob Burns or any of the old gorilla guys would have shown what Heironimus was trying to describe.

What you are doing regarding Chambers is very much what fans do with actors and things they read. They prefer the PR hype and will go to their graves believing it - even if the person responsible for creating the thing they watched on television steps forward to speak about it. If it doesn't fit what the fan has built up in his mind, then the truth is loudly denounced and all sorts of excuses created for why this just isn't so. It's an amazing thing to watch.

Chambers made all sorts of suits. Something like Patty is no biggie for someone like him and the lines pointed out by CHRIS WALAS actually fit some of the patterns he used. It turns out that once I investigated what Walas was saying he turned out to be right. Imagine that; an expert on creature suits actually knows more about what a creature suit is than we do. We don't want it to be so but it's a fact.

Vulich was just giving his opinion. But the friend of Chamber's who spoke to me wasn't. That's all I can tell you. Yet we don't really need to know exactly WHO attached the hair, or who molded the face, or where the hands were made when it is so obviously a suit. Once you know the difference between what ONLY appears in creature suits and what is never seen in a real animal (and the creature suit-makers do) then and only then will you be able to see what is on the film.

Till then... it's fanspeak all the way to the Bigfoot convention and back.


Giganto -- You're looking at a totally different suit. The dark red suit you've drawn lines on is the altered Wookie suit worn by the dummy. The arms I made various lengths in different shots as an experiment. That has nothing to do with the black suit being tested.

soarwing & LAL --- Believe me, the first thing I said about the pic was "blobsquatch" also. But my buddy said that this was the same quality as the PG film and if I started trying to make it better I wouldn't be making a true recreation of Patty, I'd be making some newer, clearer enhanced version of a Bigfoot. He may be right. So for now I'm making this early test by attempting Patterson's quality and not attempting to imitate some of the varied (and often suspicious) "enhanced" versions of the film. Though I will get to that too.

Check out these three pics from the backyard. I told him that I wanted him to imitate the shot where McClarin walked behind a tree and also do the thing at the beginning of the film when Patty walks over the little hill.

I realized later that because my fur was so black the shadows made it harder for my camcorder to separate the blacks in the footage. It might be better if I avoid the shadows altogether and try doing the whole walk in the bright sun. Still... my friend said later when he looked at the PG film that he compared the two he could see no difference in what we did and in Patty. He said it's basically the same thing - just shot on video instead of film.

You tell me. Is this Patty or another Morris thingy? Is it even close or is it back to the drawing board again?

- Dfoot


post-1483-1141229916_thumb.jpg


http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=13887&st=540
 
Does it bother you that carved feet can't leave tracks showing midtarsal bends and articulating toes?

You know very well that I don't see any midtarsal breaks or articulating toes in any bigfoot tracks, so what is the point of this "question", Lu?

You know very well that the midtarsal break has been seen with shoes and with human feet too, Lu.

Did you forget, again, Lu?
 
Green's credibility is in the toilet, imo.

He examined tracks in situ on several occasions. Did you?

Getting fooled by Marx doesn't blow the rest of his work out of the water. He was a bit overeager in that case. Marx wasn't a "known hoaxer" at the time.

Still waiting for the credentials that show you have some expertise in anything.
 
You know very well that I don't see any midtarsal breaks or articulating toes in any bigfoot tracks, so what is the point of this "question", Lu?

You know very well that the midtarsal break has been seen with shoes and with human feet too, Lu.

Did you forget, again, Lu?

You don't seem to understand what a midtarsal break is. A pressure ridge is not the same thing.

Evidently you haven't found pictures of Titmus' casts yet or noticed the splayed toe prints in several pictures that have been posted. That, or you refuse to see them. I already know what you think of half tracks, but I'm still baffled about how you could think that.

My memory's fine, thank you. Asking for a source when my links had gone dead or missing posts because I didn't skim back far enough is hardly proof of Alzheimer's, if that's what you're referring to.
 
He examined tracks in situ on several occasions.

Where else can you examine tracks, Lu?

Well, Krantz can examine copies of copies of tracks and come up with a foot skeleton, so I guess he has more qualifications than anyone, eh?

Did you also forget that I believe Green was fooled by alderfeet?

Once again Lu, I believe we are all qualified equally well to speculate on bigfoot.

What no one is qualified to do is to go as far as some folks have in describing bigfoot as if they had the facts.
 
Fakes, or bear tracks Lu? Which did you PM him about?

"Fakes", as I stated. Your bear track argument is much worse that "simply without merit" and I didn't include it, but he may have seen it if he perused the list. It would then be included in his comment. Evidently he didn't think much of the thread.
 
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