Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[Skeptical Greg]

It's "Noll", not "Knoll". You must have missed it. I posted a post of Noll's on "ambulance chasing". He favors luring, still, evidently. There's a discussion on methods on BFF, which see.

And that has paid off, exactly how, as compared to ambulance chasing ?
You know Lu, there is a very good reason why no one has put together a dog team
and made an honest effort to track a Bigfoot.. Can you guess what it is ?
( No, it’s not because the dogs are scared. )


Aren't you one of the ones who argued P&G must've been lousey trackers if they couldn't find her in 3.5 miles on horseback?

It is not a question of how good they were, it is a question of the effort put forth. Most people get this point, whether they admit it or not . Some people, really are obtuse, and don't get it ...

The Skookum animal could have had an hours head start. They did broadcast calls and try to lure it in again, but tracking anything in that area is exceedingly difficult. The mudhole was in hard ground as colobus noted, by a road. Where would the tracks be to even point the direction?

"Which way did he go? Which way did he go?"

The imprint had priority. It was beginning to dry and crack.

Again, a bloodhound, or other trained tracking dog , doesn’t need ‘ tracks ‘ ..

Do you think ‘ tracking ‘ only means ‘ following tracks ‘ ?
What was that word again? Oh, yeah; ‘ obtuse ‘ … A few hours makes no difference to tracking dogs ..

We know all the excuses Lu .. Please spare us.

The point ( do you really not get it ? ), is spending all the time and effort on a cast,
when the real thing must be relatively close by… And these world class Footers make no
real effort to bag it…

 

[LTC8K6]

Try a creature that is perhaps 200 times more rare than a bear? How many lifetimes do I get?

So then you shouldn't pass up any opportunities you get....

Think those horses would enjoy me tying that thing up on their backs? I’ve tried to put a bloody bag of moose meat on a friend’s horse. It would have been easier and safer to pack it out myself.

P/G only had to get a chunk of it to their truck. They also had movie and still cameras with them to film the body. They should have had no trouble bringing a head, arm, or leg out, and I suspect you wouldn't either.

 

[LTC8K6]

Unless Roger and Bob were on foot, the horses weren't too scared to follow Patty for 3.5 miles.

 

[LTC8K6]

Hunting a sasquatch, even with fairly fresh sign around, isn't a walk in the park, folks.

Pure invention on your part Huntster. A totally unsupportable claim.

 

[RayG]

To whom it may concern: Green took Marx' film seriously at first. He was somewhat humiliated when Byrne exposed it, especially since he was fond of Byrne.

Green fond of Byrne? When? I have in my possession a letter dated March 30, 1998, in which John Green informs me that he "will never have anything to do with any public presentation in which Peter Byrne is also to appear." (Green wrote the letter because I had created a bigfoot website based on Green's book Sasquatch: The Apes Among Us, and on the website I had included a statement about bigfoot from Peter Byrne.)

He then opines that Byrne is nothing but a con artist who only pretends to be a serious researcher, and that he can show me "ample documentation" of that should I ever visit him again.

After some additional concerning Byrne, Green concludes his letter by saying, "...if you have Byrne you don't have me. Bob Titmus, who knew him before I did, and knew him better, always took the same stand."

I don't get the impression Green was fond of Byrne. Have you contacted Green directly, and asked him what his feelings are about Byrne, or are you just speculating?

But isn't it interesting Dahinden didn't challenge Krantz on those tracks? He's the one who counted 1089 of them.

I get the feeling Dahinden didn't have much use for Krantz or his methods.

Krantz also suffered persistent heckling from Dahinden, who despised his view that a corpse of Sasquatch was needed to satisfy the scientific community. He also felt Krantz’s endorsement of the 1967 Patterson film was worthless: "He never went and examined the filming site," he told me. "In fact, he never researches the stories people tell him, he never compares notes with other trackers and never spends any time in the bush."

It seems Green, Dahinden, Byrne, and everyone else eventually realized the farce at Bossburg for what it was. Everyone except Krantz. It could be that Dahinden was content to let Krantz pursue a dead-end to reduce competition.

RayG

 

[RayG]

Noll left before anybody. Eight curators resigned in a week. Who's left but the paying customers? (At least one of them left too.)

Eight curators? My list shows at least 40 members leaving, including Noll and Meldrum.

It has always been my opinion that the BFRO calling itself a scientific organization is an insult to scientists. (and laughable)

I'm not so sure there's a huge difference between Ivan Marx, Paul Freeman, and Matt Moneymaker.

RayG

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I think lots of folks on this forum think that “hunting a sasquatch” would be an easy task.

No they don’t !

They think it would be a fruitless effort.

The evidence suggests that, deep down, Bigfoot believers think it would be a waste of
time also; since they obviously make no serious effort to try .

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I'd like to give it a try some day, but not until after retirement, when I can devote a good month or so on site, and not without adequate resources (like dogs and handler a phone call away).

Sounds like the thing to do if you are seriously interested in documenting this creature..

The payoff would be priceless. Are we to believe people like Noll and Meldrum are not aware of this ?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

A student of Krantz' reported to him he'd found tracks like that 5 or 6 years later, twenty miles away. And a farmer reported he'd seen them 20 years earlier.

Long naps between outings, huh ?

 

[LTC8K6]

Skew foot. Note the toes.

http://www.orthopediccare.net/view/templates/figure.asp?figureid=293580368

 

[RayG]

Other than Bossburg, which best evidence?

Anything associated with Marx or Freeman (Bossburg, 'wrinkle foot', handprints from the two men that Krantz writes about, the 40 tracks that Meldrum examined), the Skookum cast, and yes, the Patterson film.

Patterson was not a known hoaxer, and I don't think he qualifies as a huckster.

I guess that depends on how one defines huckster. (One who uses aggressive, showy, and sometimes devious methods to promote or sell a product.*)

Who on the Skookum expedition is or was a known hoaxer? MM didn't get grabby until years later, apparently. That hardly negates the findings.

MM was the expedition organizer, and based on his behavior to date, it's my opinion that he was hoping to cash in on the Skookum cast in a big way. Ummm... wait a minute... he did exactly that. How much money is he raking in now from his 'expeditions'? You know, those trips out into bigfoot land where every 'expedition' results in some sort of encounter. Can I prove MM faked the Skookum cast? No. I DO believe however, that MM has used the Skookum cast as a way to promote or sell his 'expeditions'. And don't forget, not so long ago, he was trolling for a sugar-daddy supporter to finance his lifestyle... er.. I mean his 'expeditions'. I'm surprised his picture isn't in the dictionary next to huckster.

And then there are all those casts over decades in widely separated areas.............

YOU might classify those casts as some of the best evidence, I don't.

RayG

*http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=huckster

 

[LTC8K6]

I don't believe the skookum cast is fake or a hoax.

 

[William Parcher]

See the walk here:

http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=67036

http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=66988

And the confirmation for the kid's story is what? The Morris suit stank?

For some reason, I can't get those video clips to play (it could be a technical problem on my end). But, I have seen these videos of Bob Heironimus walking before. To me, he walks a hell of a lot like Patty did. I can imagine it would be even more convincing if he walked across sand with clown feet. BH has a rather odd way of walking. Residents of Yakima and BH's family have seen this first-hand. I doubt that anyone would have said that BH "walks like Bigfoot" prior to seeing the PGF. After that, folks might say that he does walk like Bigfoot... because their idea of how a Bigfoot might walk would have been related to watching Patty. It's easy for these people to draw the direct connection of BH to Patty, because many dots are connected that point to BH being Patty. BH naturally walks like Patty because BH was Patty.

Confirmation that BH's nephew saw the Patty costume in the car trunk and donned the headpiece for fun? I don't think that confirmation could be secured, even if it were absolutely true. This is personal recollection and anecdote. The nephew isn't the only one who recalls seeing the Patty suit in the possession of BH. Yes, there are multiple witnesses who say they saw the costume itself. BH says that even Patty Patterson saw the suit when he tried it on outside of her house, with her husband Roger helping BH put it on. All of those recollections make perfect sense within the context of the PGF being a hoax.

Was Roger Patterson a hoaxer/huckster? Hell yes! The article I linked contains a personal recollection that Roger was creating fake Bigfoot tracks (then plaster-casting) and asking people (at least one) about how they looked. He modified his fake footprints so that they would be more believable after hearing critical comments about earlier fake versions. Why was Patterson trying to perfect fake Bigfoot track castings prior to October 20, 1967? Is this evidence of planning a hoax?

Then there was the incident(s) where Patterson had Bob Gimlin wear a long-haired wig, so that he could adopt the false visual persona that he was an Indian tracker. Gimlin was an actor (wearing wig costume) in Patterson's "documentary" film about searching for Bigfoot. I understand that Patterson even had Gimlin wear this wig in live promotional presentations. Dfoot has more info on this debacle. Is this evidence of hoaxery by Roger Patterson?

We might also focus on the actual date of the PGF film processing. This seems to be a very gray area. Even some devoted PGF-advocates are strongly suggesting that the film of Patty was developed prior to October 20th. They go on to suggest that this ought not detract from its authenticity. Explanations are given as to why Patterson might have lied about the film developing, even though he had captured a real Bigfoot on film. Is this evidence of hoaxery by Patterson, that is even possibly admitted to by PGF advocates?

 

[William Parcher]

I don't believe the skookum cast is fake or a hoax.

Okay, that's fair. But what would you say about its subsequent vigorous promotion as being the imprint of a reclining Bigfoot reaching over for an apple? Would you say that this promotion is an example of confirmation bias?

 

[William Parcher]

Eight curators? My list shows at least 40 members leaving, including Noll and Meldrum.

It has always been my opinion that the BFRO calling itself a scientific organization is an insult to scientists. (and laughable)

Ray, why on earth would Dr. Jeff Meldrum be associated (as a member) with a pseudoscientific organization like the BFRO in the very first place?

 

[Huntster]

Yes I see the claw marks. So your point is what? That all bear tracks leave claw marks?....

Almost always. Even on level, sure-footed ground (if it's soft enough to show prints at all).

If the ground is extremely slippery (muddy), you can expect to see the clawmarks.

...Having to argue over bear tracks as evidence for bigfoot is ridiculous....

Conversely, trying to argue that individual prints found in a trackway of unexplainable footprints look like bear prints is ridiculous.

Yet there you are!..........

... Kinda shows what little real "proof" there is for bigfoot...

It also shows how some people will argue against the possibility of sasquatch over such irrelevant details.

 

[LTC8K6]

Would you say that this promotion is an example of confirmation bias?

Absolutely. They talked themselves into believing it was made by a sasquatch. They followed the leader. Once they had been told what it was, they could not disagree. This is evident in the report.

 

[Huntster]

Yes, dogs are allowed to hunt for ALL game in BC. They are used for bear, but most commonly for cougar.

Guess what?

Both black bear and cougar will tree when the dogs get close. That's why dogs are used in that way.

Don't try it with a griz. You'll loose some expensive dogs.

Griz don't tree. They'll stand and fight.

We don't know what sasquatches will do. The reports indicate that they fight, and do so well. So well that dogs are reluctant to run them.

Just like griz.

So, I'd speculate that one would need dogs trained to chase dangerous game, and smart enough to stay alive if the game doesn't tree.

Know where I might find such dogs?

 

[LTC8K6]

Almost always. Even on level, sure-footed ground (if it's soft enough to show prints at all).

Nope, the claw marks may or may not show in any type of soil.

 

[Huntster]

Hunster, I have never claimed that bears are disappearing.

You are the one who claimed that earlier regarding the East coast. You were shown to be wrong, and admitted same.......

I admitted that bears are returning. They very much had been disappearing. That is because you Eastern folks are now into emotional preservation (instead of conservation), and are more afraid of firearms and hunting than bears (for good reason, I suppose; if you're in the streets more than in the woods).

...You also went on and on about the lack of bear surveys in your area. Relating it to the lack of people in the woods who might see bigfoot. That point was also disputed by myself and others....

Disputed with no basis of knowledge, few references, and unsuccessfully. I stand by my point. There are few people, let alone biologists, roaming the rainy side of the coastal ranges of the PNW.

...Now you seem to know how many bears there are in your area....

I referred you to the ADFG. They may not know fully, but they damned sure know more than you.