Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[LTC8K6]

Marx was just trying to make money with some tracks and a film to go with them.

 

[Huntster]

Do you really believe a big, stinky, crippled primate, would have gone undetected all this time?.....

Yes.

Big, crippled bears do it all the time. Even big, crippled, aggressive bears, like Old Groaner:

......A fascinating bear story from Canada took 12 years to unfold and teaches a powerful lesson. In 1933 Jack and Bruce Johnson, residents of Ketchikan, Alaska, were prospecting near the headwaters of the Unuk River in Canada, where they were tormented, mostly at night, by spine-tingling groaning sounds of a bear in great pain. Mining was promising, and the Johnson brothers returned seasonally to the remote Canadian wilderness for the next two years.
As they camped, they frequently heard the distinctive sounds of “Old Groaner� as he coughed and groaned a most chilling sound, almost as if each grunt would be his last. In spite of efforts to see the bear, he stayed out of sight, but in time he began trailing the miners, and they soon realized he was indeed stalking them, and getting braver. Once, in extremely thick brush, Old Groaner coughed, growled and advanced on Bruce but was discouraged when Bruce fired a .410 pistol several times over the bear’s head. He even destroyed their riverboat. Judging by his tracks, they knew the bear was enormous, and because of his now-aggressive behavior, rifles were always kept within easy reach.
One night he circled close to their camp, groaning, coughing and growling but staying in the shadows and out of the light of the campfire. Their dog chased him into the brush several times, but Groaner would soon return. The next morning, after keeping the fire roaring all night, with rifles in hand and getting no sleep, the Johnson brothers worked furiously to complete their small cabin, designed specifically to keep the troublesome bear out!
Mining season was coming to a close, so before heading back to Ketchikan, Bruce headed for their site to stake claim with his trusty dog Slasher following. As always he carried his rifle, a Winchester Model 1895 .38-72 WCF. While Bruce was marking the properly squared wooden stake, Slasher growled and ran to meet Groaner as he charged Bruce from a thicket only 15 feet away! The bear momentarily stopped his charge to swat the big dog with a paw and send him sailing 20 feet. This gave Bruce just enough time to grab his rifle and fire from the hip, with the bullet striking the big bear in the shoulders. Bruce barely jumped out of the way as the bear’s momentum carried him past, where he hit the ground. Instantly Groaner was up again and coming, so Bruce fired another shot into his neck, putting him down again but only for a moment. As Groaner regained his feet, Bruce managed to put his third and last shot into the brain, low just behind the ear, killing him instantly. His rifle was now empty.
In examining the old beast, he had only one eye, the other having been lost with a terrible head wound - a wound that had broken a large chunk of skull out many years before. The jaws were twisted and warped and covered with thick skin and scar tissue. His teeth were broken and festering. His hair was short and very thin and in many places there was no hair whatsoever. He was a ghastly sight!
Since the hide was no good they removed his head and began skinning it out, which unfolded a 12-year mystery. The severe wound that removed his right eye and a large portion of his skull was from a bullet. There was another old bullet wound that had crossed through the skull above the right eye and was almost completely grown over. Yet another bullet had creased the base of the skull. The right jaw hinge had been shattered and never healed. Embedded in the back of the jaw were two .33-caliber bullets and found in the gristle under the jaw were three .38-caliber bullets. It was obvious the horrible position Groaner’s victim had been in when these last three shots were fired! It was apparent that Jess Sethington, a well-known miner who had disappeared mysteriously on the Unuk in 1923, was the one who fired these bullets, as he owned a Winchester Model 1886 .33 WCF and a .38 Special revolver, which he carried with him at all times....

...Why did it stop leaving tracks after a couple of times?...

Obviously, you have little experience tracking animals.

One reason the men lost the tracks was because the tracks went down a steep slope that they didn't feel comfortable trying to negotiate (even without "fake feet").

Another reason is because the media on the ground varies. Some places are soft, some hard, some areas the snow is melted, other areas not, etc.

Ove a trackway that extended for miles like this one, you'll run into lots of different media.

 

[Huntster]

Hunster, what evidence is there that there were any more "cripple" prints than the couple that were cast?.....

Obviously, all we have today are the casts and the testimony.

...Why should anyone belive anything closely associated with Ivan Marx?...

When the evidence indicates so. Several very competitive and aggressive sasquatch hunters were there (including Patterson, two full years after his famous film, investing in hiring small aircraft, helicopters, and renting snowmobiles; not the kind of actions one would expect from someone who hoaxed a film before), saw the prints and trackway, and searched the area.

...Weren't cripple prints hoaxed long before? Sorry, I mean found...

Not that I know of.

 

[LTC8K6]

Does anyone know why this still from the Bossburg track video, and this picture of Krantz at Bossburg, appear to show normal right footprints?

 

[Huntster]

http://www.vancourier.com/issues01/07101/news/07101N1.html

How can anyone even begin to take the bossburg prints seriously?

Because of the evidence and testimony.

 

[Huntster]

Not to mention paddling or swimming across the Columbia River.

RayG

While the Columbia River isn't a spa, therapy in water is among the treatments for humans with crippled feet/legs.

A previously injured or seriously diseased foot doesn't prevent swimming.

 

[LTC8K6]

Old Groaner had nowhere near the number of people to avoid, though.

 

[LTC8K6]

Because of the evidence and testimony.

Well, that's why they are most likely a hoax.

 

[Huntster]

Huntster, don't you find it a little puzzling that no further pursuit was attempted for the situations described?....

Which situations are those?

...The same things seems to happen on BFRO expeditions. Enough of an encounter to keep paying customers showing up, but never any pursuit of the pesky squatch....

I'm highly skeptical of BFRO "expeditions". While I can understand the possibility that the organization might be on to something, and may be hording information/evidence, as time goes on and no revelations are released, that becomes less likely.

They seem to be way too private and withholding while simultaneously making fantastic claims to be believable.

 

[Huntster]

Old Groaner had nowhere near the number of people to avoid, though.

Maybe more.

There were lots more people running around in the woods during the gold prospecting years than are out there today.

 

[LTC8K6]

There were lots more people running around in the woods during the gold prospecting years than are out there today.

Yeah, and bears are disappearing....

I think there were more people to avoid in the Bossburg area, and quite a few finally went looking specifically for cripplefoot.

 

[Huntster]

Because of the evidence and testimony.

Well, that's why they are most likely a hoax.

I disagree.

Several people saw the tracks. We have casts. They look very good, and certainly unique.

You, as a so-called skeptic (I think more of a denialist), have nothing but the fact that Marx and other locals tried to pull off hoaxes related to the trackway upon the arrival of seemingly money-paying sasquatch hunters like Patterson. The competitive circus-like atmosphere of the various hunters isn't surprising when people smell money.

When the science community, the media, and the environmentalists start smelling money to be made from sasquatchery, the circus will really start.

 

[Huntster]

Yeah, and bears are disappearing.....

Maybe where you are located, "Directly under a deadly chemtrail"....

There are more bears running around my neck of the woods than at any time in recorded history.

And that's despite the heavy bear hunting pressure (which is widely variable, depending on game management unit).

Maybe if you folks down there would get a clue regarding wildlife management, how to live with wildlife, and how to even recognize when they're around, you'd still have some bears in the woods.

Maybe there are more bears around than you know about......

But, then, maybe you're too "skeptical" to acknowledge that bears exist.........

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, foot would only have had to swim about half a click, it looks like.

 

[LTC8K6]

Huntster, we just had a prolonged argument about whether large mammals were disappearing in the Eastern US. You eventually conceded that black bear populations were actaually rising in the Eastern US, and you said that it was good news.

Our position was that Bigfoot should also be thriving.

My remark about bears disappearing was a sarcastic reference to your earlier position.

How you can already have completely forgotten your defeat in that argument, is beyond me.

 

[LTC8K6]

There are more bears running around my neck of the woods than at any time in recorded history.

Seems at odds with earlier comments about bears and surveys, etc.

How do you know this?

 

[Huntster]

.....How you can already have completely forgotten your defeat in that argument, is beyond me.

Defeat?

Victory?

Is that what this is all about for you?

Is that what science is all about?

By now claiming that "bears are disappearing", are you not falling into the same trap that you set for me before?

Are you still "winning"?

 

[RayG]

Which situations are those?

The two Diogenes mentions -- Skookum cast and Patterson film.

Explain to me again, why Knoll, with a fresh Sas butt print, didn't find the nearest bloodhound, and go after the greatest find of the 21st century ?...

Think again about P&G..
Tracking Patty would have been the most logical thing in the world to do ..

It was absolutely known that the trail was fresh, but it was totally ignored, supposedly while the great Sas hunters cast tracks.

RayG

 

[Huntster]

There are more bears running around my neck of the woods than at any time in recorded history.

Seems at odds with earlier comments about bears and surveys, etc.

How do you know this?

I can't find the specific statement at this time. I hope this will help:

...Numbers of grizzly bears have probably increased in Interior Alaska since the 1950s. We base this on incidental observations by older hunters, local residents, cabin owners, and Native elders, who all indicate that grizzly bear numbers have increased. This is corroborated to some degree by modern studies. For example, grizzly bears were recently found to be significant predators of moose calves on the Yukon Flats and are commonly seen by local residents, whereas 20-30 years ago, observations of grizzly bears were rare.

Grizzly bear populations appear to be much more resilient to harvest than previously believed. During the last 10 years, the Alaska Board of Game has made a deliberate effort to reduce numbers of grizzly bears in a few important hunting areas (e.g. Game Management Unit 13-the Nelchina Basin) by increasing the bag limit and extending hunting seasons. So far, these new regulations have had no noticeable affect on grizzly bear populations even though hunters have taken an increased number of bears....

Again, note the dependency that professional biologists have with the reports of Natives, rural residents, and hunters (the precise data you reject with regard to sasquatches).

ADFG has learned that the era of regulated hunting and the era of economic assistance and development of the Native populations had greatly expanded the number of game animals, especially those that aren't commonly eaten or sold. Earlier in the century, bears were exterminated by the federal government statewide. Since statehood, ADFG has pulled all species (including salmon, which was the driving force behind statehood for Alaskans, since the federal mismanagement days and the declarations of economic disaster when the salmon stopped running).

The bears are literally everywhere, and the state now is working toward predator control, which is fought fiercely by environmental organizations.

Just another tidbit of information:

...Because Alaska contains over 98 percent of the United States population of brown bears, and more than 70 percent of the North American population, it has a special responsibility for this large carnivore....

That's not to mention the largest black bear population in the United States, as well as a healthy population of polar bears (which haven't been legally hunted by whites since 1966).

We are, literally, crawling with bears.

 

[Huntster]

Explain to me again, why Knoll, with a fresh Sas butt print, didn't find the nearest bloodhound, and go after the greatest find of the 21st century ?...

Well, I’m not sure where one goes to "find the nearest bloodhound". I’ve stated on BFF that, despite being a big game hunter, I know of no bear hunting dogs, and thought that trained dogs were no longer around, because hunting bears with dogs has become illegal nearly continent-wide. Rockinkt replied that dogs are still used in BC. I believe him. I guess one would run to town, get on the Net, and Google “hunting dogs – BC”?

I think lots of folks on this forum think that “hunting a sasquatch” would be an easy task. Again, I’ve stated many times on BFF that, despite being an accomplished big game hunter, I wouldn’t even try it. I have a hard enough time getting shots at moose, caribou, bear, and deer. Never mind wolf hunting (boy, when you see a wolf, he’s already seen you twice). Try a creature that is perhaps 200 times more rare than a bear? How many lifetimes do I get?

Was Knoll alone? Does he have any hunting experience? Was he afraid? How did he know the creature was still around? Did he set camera traps, and consider that good enough rather than tromp around in the woods making noise and stinking it up (probably a good decision).

Think again about P&G..
Tracking Patty would have been the most logical thing in the world to do. It was absolutely known that the trail was fresh, but it was totally ignored, supposedly while the great Sas hunters cast tracks....

Patterson and Gimlin were certain that they had the goods. I’m sure they never imagined the crap that is played over and over again on websites like this among pseudo-scientists who are arguing from a position of pure denial.

If I just got the thing on a movie camera, and had good footprints to go with it, and knew the horses obviously didn’t like the creature, I’d figure I had enough, and go back to camp and pile up a whole bunch of firewood for the coming night in case the damned thing came back.

Of course, seeing what has happened with the Patterson film, now I’d simply pump several rounds of 300 WinMag or 338 WinMag into the thing. Then I’d be in a real fix, wouldn’t I?

Think those horses would enjoy me tying that thing up on their backs? I’ve tried to put a bloody bag of moose meat on a friend’s horse. It would have been easier and safer to pack it out myself.

Hunting a sasquatch, even with fairly fresh sign around, isn't a walk in the park, folks. I'd like to give it a try some day, but not until after retirement, when I can devote a good month or so on site, and not without adequate resources (like dogs and handler a phone call away).