Angelika Graswald

[Samson]

I'm not sure if it was explained thoroughly here or not. So I'll have a go.

As RW showed, the kayak takes on a fair amount of water each time the back end goes underwater. The paddle was over a mile, which is a big paddle across current. . Not for an amatuer.

It was the melt, which means the river was running. It was windy. Any wind when you're kayaking is a PITA, unless it's on your back, and that's not very likely when you're crossing a river. Winds tend to gust along rivers
Lots of chop is a given. The stern submerging every few seconds as you're paddling across the current, hence chop ...... .

If the plug was removed before they paddled across, by the time they got to the island the kayak would have been noticably heavy. You would be aware that it was full of water and sort it out before returning.

It's my opinion that the plug was removed while they were on the island. Always was.
I haven't seen anything to change my opinion yet. I'm not even sure if the prosecution have suggested it because I haven't followed it. I made up my mind from a few news articles last year when it happened.

I've never been a life jacket wearer, but it just recently became law here. Apparently it's law in NY, so I agree with all that he takes some credit here too. I think if I was going to paddle a big icy river like that I'd wear one though. We don't really have icy rivers in Oz.

No one would defend her if she unscrewed the plug on the island, that is a sufficient but also necessary condition to pin her with murder 2.

No one has ever suggested it of course.

 

[Desert Fox]

3. I disconnect the brake lines on your car. You never check, and drive off down the freeway and die in a horrible accident.

Same deal. I am causally detached from the events...

With the exception of RW, every Kayaker (including instructors) has argued that the plug was not a cause of Vincent ending up in the water. We are not even sure that his kayak flooded and he did not just fall out.

The real cause of the accident is that he was either right at the line of being legal intoxicated or over it. In fact he had a whole cooler of beers found in his kayak when it was recovered.

 

[Desert Fox]

Do you discount the witness reports that she paddled away from him as he drowned?

Or the reports, again from witnesses, that she waited 20 minutes before calling 911, and then appeared to deliberately capsize her own craft ?

This is all basically BS. . . .That 20 minutes was something that the prosecutor presented basically unsupported. There probably was a short delay when neither realized how serious the situation was.

 

[Desert Fox]

You think the rescuers turned up as she hung up from the 911 call? Why?

As far as I remember, she was on the phone when she dropped the phone in the water. She did not hang up as far as I remember.

Do you not imagine that spare parts are available for kayaks?

If Viafore had a bit of a brain and noticed that the drain plug was missing, he could have stuck a rag in there. The fact is that either he did not notice it or considered it not important.

 

[RWVBWL]

Great White Shark, on my 2 o'clock!

Wind, waves, swells.
I deal with them all the time when I kayak for fun or launch my kayak thru real, hard breaking waves
to look for sharks near the shoreline were I, and many others too, surf.

Check out my 2 o'clock:

A juvenile GWS is slowly cruising the line-up.

* * * * *

As the case we discuss is about wind and open water swells, err, what they call waves out there on The Hudson River, let's look at a pic of a Google map of Bannerman Island, with the Iwindsurf.com wind report overlaid below it, taken from the adjacent weather station tower out there on The Hudson River right next to BI on April 19, 2015, the Sunday that Vincent Viafore lost his life.

Wonder what the wind strength was? Look at the graph and times.
Wonder what direction the wind was blowing from? Look at the little yellow arrows:

Leaving Plum Point at 4:30pm,
(this being what she told police after being rescued that evening)
Vincent and Angelika were paddling into a wind, on their 2 o'clock position, blowing 15 to 18 mph,
they would have been getting a little splashed on the paddle over to Bannerman Island, in my opinion.

The stern of Vincent's 'Fusion 124' kayak should have been having water awash over it, just like as happens when I paddle, in windy conditions here in Los Angeles, to The Buoy. Water should have entered the open Drain-Age Plug hole, if the plug was un-screwed + removed prior to the paddle to Bannerman Island.

Vincent Viafore (or Angelika) should have noticed this water inside when he landed, opened his cargo hatch, grabbed some cold Modelo beers, maybe even took out a DSLR camera from his dry gear bag to shoot pix for a sexy photo shoot, supposedly the reason they paddled over to Bannerman Island in the 1st place.

However,
IF the Drain-Age Plug on Viafore's 'Fusion 124' was screwed in, where he had last left it the year before, well he would not have had hardly any water inside his kayak when he arrived at Bannerman Island.

Angelika,
his wing-girl, well she though, would have/should have seen what the low riding stern of Vincent's kayak was doing on their original crossing, it would have been constantly awash as the kayak went up + down, up + down thru the little Hudson waves, err, wind chop out there, just like it does so with my own 'Fusion 124' kayak. This very easily could have given her the idea, that day, to sabotage his gear, make it look like an "accident".

I too am now of the belief that she un-screwed the Drain-Age Plug out there on Bannerman Island, right before they started the paddle home.

15 minutes into the paddle, halfway home, wind and swell at his 8 o'clock, behind him at an angle, water constantly awash over his stern, his kayak filling with water from that open hole, Vincent might have/should have finally looked back, seen the problem, might even have tried to reach back and somehow plug the hole, lost balance, capsized. That'd be the only time I can really visualize the 'Fusion 124' kayak, which has super stable Dihedral Hull Design, suddenly flipping.

Angelika is allegedly charged with unscrewing + removing his Drain-Age Plug, un-screwing + removing a locking ring on his kayak paddle, all seemingly hoping to sabotage him. If she did do so, do you think that she was then going to paddle over and help Vincent then plug the open 3/4" hole on his stern that was causing him to slowly sink? Or call 911 for help immediately?

Nah, she was battling her "Angels + Demons" out there
as her Fiancè, in 46° water, got cold quickly, froze, where he then drowned...
My opinions only,
RW

 

[Shiner]

This is all basically BS. . . .That 20 minutes was something that the prosecutor presented basically unsupported. There probably was a short delay when neither realized how serious the situation was.

BS, basically, probably. I see.

 

[Shiner]

With the exception of RW, every Kayaker (including instructors) has argued that the plug was not a cause of Vincent ending up in the water. We are not even sure that his kayak flooded and he did not just fall out.

The real cause of the accident is that he was either right at the line of being legal intoxicated or over it. In fact he had a whole cooler of beers found in his kayak when it was recovered.

Do you mean in this thread? You've claimed to be a kayaker haven't you? But I get the feeling your experience is limited. I saw one other who appeared to know his stuff and he seemed to be on the fence.

Of course if we call the witness accounts "BS", then we can assume all sorts of things.
Afaik, wifnesses watched his kayak sink. I'm not seeing the point of suggesting otherwise.

 

[quadraginta]

Do you mean in this thread? You've claimed to be a kayaker haven't you? But I get the feeling your experience is limited. I saw one other who appeared to know his stuff and he seemed to be on the fence.

Of course if we call the witness accounts "BS", then we can assume all sorts of things.
Afaik, wifnesses watched his kayak sink. I'm not seeing the point of suggesting otherwise.

Did the kayak actually sink? As in ended up on the bottom of the river?

Isn't that a bit unusual for modern kayaks, even ones with their drain plugs out?

 

[Shiner]

Did the kayak actually sink? As in ended up on the bottom of the river?

Isn't that a bit unusual for modern kayaks, even ones with their drain plugs out?

I don't know for certain. That is how I took it from what I read of the witness statements. My favourite kayak has no positive bouyancy and is a current model.
ETA. It also has no drain plugs.


If it was heavy enough in the water, I guess it wouldn't need to be completely submerged for you to end up in the water in a decent swell/chop.

 

[quadraginta]

I don't know for certain. That is how I took it from what I read of the witness statements. My favourite kayak has no positive bouyancy and is a current model.
ETA. It also has no drain plugs.


If it was heavy enough in the water, I guess it wouldn't need to be completely submerged for you to end up in the water in a decent swell/chop.

Sure, but you can still hang on to something that's completely awash.

If it goes to the bottom, not so much.

 

[Desert Fox]

Do you mean in this thread? You've claimed to be a kayaker haven't you? But I get the feeling your experience is limited. I saw one other who appeared to know his stuff and he seemed to be on the fence.

Of course if we call the witness accounts "BS", then we can assume all sorts of things.
Afaik, wifnesses watched his kayak sink. I'm not seeing the point of suggesting otherwise.

Well, I have kayaked on tidal rivers. . . . .As far as I know, RW had not.
In addition, several of the posters involved in the discussion in the Injustice Anywhere forum are very experienced kayakers.

We are not the important ones though but this
http://abcnews.go.com/US/york-kayak...ation-video-reveals-details/story?id=33696436

“The only thing that she could’ve done, would’ve been to have him hold onto her boat, and bulldoze him to shore,” said expert kayaker Carl Ladd, who is an American Canoe Association level-five instructor. “But with water temperatures that cold, he might not have made it... She was lucky to survive as well.”

“That she set out to kill him via the drain plug in my mind is ridiculous. I don’t see that as being plausible at all,” Ladd said. “If she wanted to kill him by kayak all she would have had to have done is basically capsize his boat and paddle away… [but] the kayaks they were in were not designed for the conditions that they were in.”

Oops
About Carl Lad
http://ospreyseakayak.com/about/staff/
Carl’s knowledge of the ocean started as a young boy, fishing and sailing on the waters of coastal New England. At Prescott College he discovered the world of paddle sports, first with white water in the rivers of the desert South West, then the bliss of sea kayaking in the Sea of Cortez. He and his wife Sam co-founded Osprey Sea Kayak Adventures as a paddle sports school in 01’. Osprey’s initial focus was sea kayak education but has since expanded to include Surf kayaking and Stand Up Paddle boarding (SUP). Carl’s coaching and instruction is constantly evolving. He is an American Canoe Association L3 Surf Kayak Instructor Trainer, Level 4 open water Sea Kayak Instructor Trainer and a Level 5 Advanced Open Water Instructor. He has a patient and relaxed style of coaching and is always finding new and fun ways to transfer his knowledge of the sea and small paddle craft. Carl has lead trips all over the globe, including the Sea of Cortez, The Virgin Islands and the Exuma Islands to The Greek Islands, Portugal and Greece. He can most often be found playing in the rocks and surf off the coast of his home in Rhode Island. Carl is proud to be a team paddler for P&H Kayaks and Werner Paddles.

 

[Desert Fox]

Do you mean in this thread? You've claimed to be a kayaker haven't you? But I get the feeling your experience is limited. I saw one other who appeared to know his stuff and he seemed to be on the fence.

Of course if we call the witness accounts "BS", then we can assume all sorts of things.
Afaik, wifnesses watched his kayak sink. I'm not seeing the point of suggesting otherwise.

I missed this the first time

Sorry, there were no witnesses that saw his kayak sink. It was getting dark and they do not appear to have had lights. Ms Graswald called for help and a rescue boat came out in time for her to end up in the water as well and have to rescue her.

She survived because there was a rescue boat right there and because she was wearing a life vest. Even wearing a life vest, if that rescue boat was not there, I would not have given her more than a 25% chance of survival.

 

[Shiner]

First off, I need to say, I'm only voicing my thoughts. I hope I haven't come across as too arrogant.

According to what Carl Ladd says, the kayak wasn't suitable for the conditions it was being used in. This was a thought I'd had looking at RW's pics. I don't see how he holds firm on the bung hole issue, whilst acknowledging that we have an unsuitable craft. I imagine in those conditions that the tail would be submerged almost continuously. And bulldozing wasn't the only rescue option. Tail towing is easier on both paddler and rescuee. But again, the water temps would come into play. Strength saps quickly.

But ..... there are no reports that a rescue attempt was made, are there?

 

[Shiner]

I missed this the first time

Sorry, there were no witnesses that saw his kayak sink. It was getting dark and they do not appear to have had lights. Ms Graswald called for help and a rescue boat came out in time for her to end up in the water as well and have to rescue her.

She survived because there was a rescue boat right there and because she was wearing a life vest. Even wearing a life vest, if that rescue boat was not there, I would not have given her more than a 25% chance of survival.

Do you have any links to confirm the info about the rescue boat? Do we have any accurate time scale?

 

[Desert Fox]

Do you have any links to confirm the info about the rescue boat? Do we have any accurate time scale?

The whole time scale is a matter of guessing. . . .I actually don't even trust Angela herself. She was likely drinking herself, suffering from hypothermia (which would have been made worse by the drinking), and scared half out of her mind.

You have to understand that I have read dozens of articles on the subject and watched two documentaries, all along with discussing the issue with other kayakers. Trying to find exactly where I read something is sometimes hard.

This is one I could find
http://www.canoekayak.com/news/kayak-murder-mystery/#ryfCyds1q6J7cA3a.97

Edit: One should also note that in the exact same river, Ian Jones drowned. He was the boyfriend of Tali Lennox, daughter of Annie Lennox, and they were both on the river. Tali survived but Ian Jones did not. Tali was smart enough not to talk to the cops. Perhaps after seeing the Graswald case, her lawyers told her to just stay away from the cops.

 

[Shiner]

The linked blog says she was already in the water when the rescue boat got to her.

The news article isn't clear, but also says she was in the water.

Nothing about her trying to stand up as it approached.

Graswald called 911 before being tossed in the rough waters herself. She remembers seeing rescue boat lights shortly after she lost sight of her fiance.

http://westchester.news12.com/news/...lls-last-moments-she-saw-him-alive-1.10323591

ETA. Another article on the same site says she was recued by a nearby boater. A recreational power boat.

That would make a lot more sense to me. I doubt there are rescue boats just waiting around to respond within seconds to any incident.

 

[Desert Fox]

When did I write that she tried to stand up?
Is there something I missed somewhere?

Edit: With respect to the rescue boat, my reading is that it was a boat from the local marina that went out to rescue them.

 

[Shiner]

When did I write that she tried to stand up?
Is there something I missed somewhere?

Edit: With respect to the rescue boat, my reading is that it was a boat from the local marina that went out to rescue them.

I didn't mean to imply that you said she stood up. That was something that Samson has said a couple of times. Something about falling off a log.

You don't stand up in kayaks, especially in rough water.

 

[Desert Fox]

I didn't mean to imply that you said she stood up. That was something that Samson has said a couple of times. Something about falling off a log.

You don't stand up in kayaks, especially in rough water.

I don't think Samson has ever been kayaking.

I try to, as much as possible, judge these cases using skepticism.

Have you ever heard of Hanlon's Razor
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor

 

[RWVBWL]

Sorry, there were no witnesses that saw his kayak sink. It was getting dark and they do not appear to have had lights. Ms Graswald called for help and a rescue boat came out in time for her to end up in the water as well and have to rescue her.
<snip>

What are you talking about, Desert Fox?
I think that you, friend in debate, are following toooo many pro-innocence cases
to remember all the important little details in this particular case we discuss.
I do not. That said, allow me to help refresh your memory, ok?

Angelika texted Barbara,
1 of the gals that she co-volunteered to work with out there Bannerman Island at 7:04 pm that Sunday evening, saying they were leaving.

Barbara Gottlock lives with her husband Wes right near Plum Point,
where Vinny's white Jeep was parked at, where they unloaded the kayaks, launched at about 4:30pm that Sunday afternoon. These older folks were aware that Vincent + Angelika were heading home. Angelika makes no mention that the winds are out of control, the waves are crazy, the waves are too big, help us get off of here, we are scared, etc. Eerily calm, the text is something about the birds, IIRC.

You can easily see Bannerman Island in the distance from their house. Check the screen grab here:

Wes has a telescope in his house.
From what I recall, Wes stated that he saw them and their kayaks on Bannerman Island then,
but could not make out their faces some 1 +1/4 to 1 + 1/2 mile away whie looking thru his telescope.

Angelika told Police that the 'accident' happened 1/2 way home, around 7:20pm.
Wes G. saw some things out there on The Hudson River. He did indeed testify, from what I recall,
in front of The Grand Jury, but there is now a gag order...

I've wondered what a guy can see with a telescope?
My little brother David, into Astronomy, just bought himself a neat telescope to look at the stars, Moon, etc.
Of course RW had to have a lookie here at the beach the other day were I look for sharks.

What can I see out on the beach or the open waters here of Los Angeles 3/4's to 1/2 a mile away? Plenty.

Witness Wes Gottlock saw things out there on The Hudson River that evening. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but it was not pitch black dark when the 'accident' happened. What Wes Gottlock saw as a witness, well it'll be interesting to find out when Court commences.
My opinion only,
RW


PS - I seem to recall Angelika asking for Wes to keep an eye out for Vinny as the search for his corpse went on. Chick must have known of the telescope in his living room. Used him for a witness to the 'accident' that she caused by her sabotage of Vincent's gear. After he had called off their up-coming wedding, it seems...