Angelika Graswald

[Desert Fox]

I need to let people know that RW is on my ignore list. I don't hate him but just think his posts are this crazy useless mess of garbage.

 

[RWVBWL]

Greetings Shiner,
Looks like DF is mad at me again,
because I do not swallow the pro-innocence bull in this particular case,
even though I was accepted as ok in the old Amanda Knox case.

As Desert Fox is busting out credentials,
well allow me RW, to do the same, for I am the dude challenging The Experts in this case we discuss.
I don't wanna come across as arrogant, a know it all, for I'm not. But that said, I'm a very experienced, old surfer. 40 years of riding waves under my belt, I've earned paychecks back in the late 1980's from riding a surfboard in real, hard breaking waves. Been in a buncha surf mags too, like Surfer Magazine, where I, RW is seen here riding a wave, doing a floater at Rat Beach in Torrance back in the '88:


Nowadays, I look for sharks,
sometimes even from a kayak(!) in between photographing surf.

+


I live and breath waves, swells, water, wind.
Which is what this case is all about.

I told pro-innocence folks when I 1st was asked by Anglolawyer, old CW himself, to check into this case, that I believed Angelika was guilty. Before I'd ever even had a chance to paddle the same modle of kayak as Vincent Viafore last used. They seemingly did not like this and nowadays do not like me.
Bummer.

For I know that anyone who paddles a kayak with a low riding stern, like my own 15 ft 'Cobra Tourer' kayak is,
a kayak which I've paddled 100's of miles in all over the water of Los Angeles in, in all kinds of conditions:

and can even sail it into the wind too:

well a fella who has that kind of experience knows that paddling or sailing a low-riding kayak in strong, gusty winds, or paddling a low-riding kayak thru wind driven, open water white capping swells, well you just know that the stern will often be awash, all you have to do is look behind you. Yet you will notice that the cock-pit seating area does not really have a problem with crazy waves constantly crashing into it, unless you are in the shore break, dealing with real, hardbreaking waves that are surfer or body surfer could ride. So when I started do little tests paddles, videoing this happening, taking pix of it too, posting of it, well the hard workin' pro-innocence folks don't really dig it, it seems. Oh well.

So I'm 1 of the main dudes arguing for Angelika Graswald's GUILT!
Lock her up!

I know what would happen,
that did apparently indeed happen, if your gal, like Angelika,
for some reason, decides to un-screw + then remove the Drain-Age Plug
from your stern on a low riding kayak...
See you all next time.
RW

 

[Shiner]

I don't think Samson has ever been kayaking.

I try to, as much as possible, judge these cases using skepticism.

Have you ever heard of Hanlon's Razor
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor

I understand. I can see the argument that it was so rough they both capsized separately, but there are just too many other points.

I guess it's impossible to say whether Vincent capsized because the kayak was half full of water, or for other reasons. Once it's capsized, it's full of water.

Has there been much talk about the kayak experience of the pair?

 

[RWVBWL]

<snip>
Has there been much talk about the kayak experience of the pair?

He grew up there on The River, from what I understand.
I recall reading, and made note of it, that 1 of Vincent's friends wrote of after his death
that he knew Vincent had participated in kayak paddling races in some club he was in...

By the way,
for anyone that is interested in the alleged murder of Vincent Viafore,
who wishes to see what his model of kayak, the 'Fusion 124' looks like out on the Hudson River,
how it sits in the water, paddles, etc. here is a short 1:38 minute video clip from 48 Hours:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhEojnlGwDY

You can see in that 48 Hours video that the kayak is pretty stable, level...

My own tests show me this,
but I like sharing with interested folks what happens when you paddle this same model of kayak
in gusty winds, open water, choppy, white capping swell, for that was what happened when Vinny died.

Angelika should have never un-screwed + removed his Drain-Age Plug from the stern of his kayak.
RW

 

[Shiner]

Thanks, RW. Pleased to meetcha. I think?

 

[Desert Fox]

I understand. I can see the argument that it was so rough they both capsized separately, but there are just too many other points.

I guess it's impossible to say whether Vincent capsized because the kayak was half full of water, or for other reasons. Once it's capsized, it's full of water.

Has there been much talk about the kayak experience of the pair?

From what I have read was that they were inexperienced. Also, I do not believe that they had taken a safety course or read any books on kayaking. I suspect that even after just one year, I am more experienced than they were.

He apparently owned a power boat before that was repossessed but I have large sail boat experience and navy ship experience - It certainly does not help with kayaking.

 

[Samson]

From what I have read was that they were inexperienced. Also, I do not believe that they had taken a safety course or read any books on kayaking. I suspect that even after just one year, I am more experienced than they were.

He apparently owned a power boat before that was repossessed but I have large sail boat experience and navy ship experience - It certainly does not help with kayaking.

Shiner you should be pleased to meet RW.
And I hope DF reconsiders the ignore function.
I am a strong supporter of RW bringing a prosecution view.

RW now relies on ANjie removing the plug on Bannerman Island, this did not happen.

 

[RWVBWL]

From what I have read was that they were inexperienced. Also, I do not believe that they had taken a safety course or read any books on kayaking.
<snip>

Inexperienced kayakers do not check the tides before paddling. Tides? What's that, an inexperienced person might ask, right?

Angelika told police they had checked the tides before launching to Bannerman Island.
Both had PFD's, Angelika's a wearable Type I, II, or III, Vincent's PFD - a Type IV, which has 18 lbs of floatation.

I suspect that even after just one year, I am more experienced than they were.

After a year, you have more experience paddling a Rounded hull 'Perception Arc' kayak, bro, NOT a V-shaped Dihedral hull 'Fusion 124' kayak. You still do not have a personal clue how the kayak that Vincent last paddled handles.


My opinion only,
RW

 

[RWVBWL]

<snip>
I am a strong supporter of RW bringing a prosecution view.
<snip>

Hi Samson,
I bring a watermans point of view,
from a fella that kayak paddles in waves and wind.
Not like the guys that they always show us on CBS or ABC News paddling in flat, calm conditions, proving, (hahaha) that a 'Fusion 124' kayak can not sink if the Drain-Age Plug is removed. Duh! So clue-less! It's flat out on the water, there are no wind waves nor swell to wash over the stern.



Angelika was kind of clowning the cops out there on Bannerman Island,
read the Huntley Hearing Courtroom testimony from June of 2016: You don't kayak, right officer? - as he asks her questions about what happened out there on the water, right before she was then transported by boat to Montgomery Barracks for her 5 hour interrogation session that happened over the span of 11 hours before her arrest.

The cops had no clue really about what she had done to Vincent's kayak.
It seems she thought they did, they were closing in on her, felt some guilt pressure, told them about the missing Drain-Age Plug, how she removed it, that locking screw too from Vincent's kayak paddle...
My random thoughts only,
RW

 

[Aepervius]

I need to let people know that RW is on my ignore list. I don't hate him but just think his posts are this crazy useless mess of garbage.

Are they ? because the post preceding yours is certainly present cogent argument. And the sunset is 19h30 on that date, so I am not sure either it was that dark.

 

[Desert Fox]

Shiner you should be pleased to meet RW.
And I hope DF reconsiders the ignore function.
I am a strong supporter of RW bringing a prosecution view.

RW now relies on ANjie removing the plug on Bannerman Island, this did not happen.

His posts are scattered every which way, present stuff that just is immaterial, and basically just are not useful. I will answer other people who get to the point and present stuff in an organized manner.

Edit: I found this article
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/21/n...nd-dangers-experts-say.html?ref=nyregion&_r=0

Does make a mistake describing their kayaks as white water kayaks not rec kayaks however.

 

[kali1137]

Are they ? because the post preceding yours is certainly present cogent argument. And the sunset is 19h30 on that date, so I am not sure either it was that dark.

I agree. I have found his posts quite enlightening. The only one I have considered putting on mute is Samson because he simply cannot stay on topic and leave other cases out of anything.

Back on topic. I am kayaker myself though I am no expert. RW has proven that a low riding hull with a missing plug will quite easily sink under the right circumstances. Mine runs the same except that my drain is at the front, in my line of view. But even at that, I don't know that I would notice it missing right away. Given the events, my theory runs that she didn't premeditate it happening, I think she saw the opportunity and took advantage. That plug had to have been removed at the island. He would surely have taken on water on the way out otherwise.

 

[Desert Fox]

Are they ? because the post preceding yours is certainly present cogent argument. And the sunset is 19h30 on that date, so I am not sure either it was that dark.

I have trouble even answering to because, to be blunt, I cannot understand how anybody would make the argument that you just made. If you ever have been outside at dusk anywhere, not even just on the water, you should know that visibility is sharply reduced. In some ways it can actually be worse because you cannot have your full night vision either.

I have never paddled in the dusk but have sailed in the dusk (and at night). I also was in the navy and had lookout watches during all times of the day including dusk. I also work at piers and often observe the sun coming up. Often it is hard to see a decent sized fishing boat some distance away in the water. Sunrise and Sunset can be some of the most beautiful times of the day but visibility is limited.

Kayaks are tiny things as is and hard to often see. There are multiple incidents per year where power boats run over kayaks in the water, not keeping a careful watch. As I type this, I can look out onto to James River. If there was a kayak in the middle of the river, I would have trouble seeing it (1500 with sunset being at 1814)

The trouble is that RW should know everything I just wrote here so I have to consider that he is being disingenuous.

 

[Desert Fox]

I agree. I have found his posts quite enlightening. The only one I have considered putting on mute is Samson because he simply cannot stay on topic and leave other cases out of anything.

Back on topic. I am kayaker myself though I am no expert. RW has proven that a low riding hull with a missing plug will quite easily sink under the right circumstances. Mine runs the same except that my drain is at the front, in my line of view. But even at that, I don't know that I would notice it missing right away. Given the events, my theory runs that she didn't premeditate it happening, I think she saw the opportunity and took advantage. That plug had to have been removed at the island. He would surely have taken on water on the way out otherwise.

Being that basically every expert in the field disagrees with you, I don't think we need to go on.

 

[kali1137]

Being that basically every expert in the field disagrees with you, I don't think we need to go on.

Sorry but you are going have to prove that one. One or two perhaps, but I require links to all the experts in the field that disagree. Then you can make a statement like that.

 

[Desert Fox]

Sorry but you are going have to prove that one. One or two perhaps, but I require links to all the experts in the field that disagree. Then you can make a statement like that.

I believe I have provided at least three in various posts.
ABC had their expert, CBS had their expert, and the newspaper had a third expert.

Edit: One one my big arguments is that even if the lack of the plug did contribute to him ending up in the water, she is not going to know that. If experts don't think it was a major contributing factor, I don't think that she could know that. Consider she was also drinking while kayaking.

Personally I don't think it was a major factor and question if the kayak even flipped due to flooding but instead just a bad stroke. With how wide his cockpit was and how he was right on the limit with regard to intoxication, I can easily see him as somehow either tipping or simply falling out of his kayak.

I should add that there is a good reason for my argument here. If Ms Graswald is convicted, it will decrease kayak safety not increase it. You need to be responsible for both yourself and your own boat. You don't go out in 46 degree water without a wet suit or dry suit. You don't go out at all without a life vest. Pay attention to the weather. You should not drink while kayaking - and it is against the law where if you are inebriated even while in a self powered craft, it si considered the same as if you are driving a car. If you are not trained in kayak rescue techniques, the best thing you can do is save yourself.

 

[Shiner]

I have trouble even answering to because, to be blunt, I cannot understand how anybody would make the argument that you just made. If you ever have been outside at dusk anywhere, not even just on the water, you should know that visibility is sharply reduced. In some ways it can actually be worse because you cannot have your full night vision either.

I have never paddled in the dusk but have sailed in the dusk (and at night). I also was in the navy and had lookout watches during all times of the day including dusk. I also work at piers and often observe the sun coming up. Often it is hard to see a decent sized fishing boat some distance away in the water. Sunrise and Sunset can be some of the most beautiful times of the day but visibility is limited.

Kayaks are tiny things as is and hard to often see. There are multiple incidents per year where power boats run over kayaks in the water, not keeping a careful watch. As I type this, I can look out onto to James River. If there was a kayak in the middle of the river, I would have trouble seeing it (1500 with sunset being at 1814)

The trouble is that RW should know everything I just wrote here so I have to consider that he is being disingenuous.

I think you're being a little narrow in your focus. Dusk is different on every river.

This whole incident happened between 1920-1940 hrs. Sunset @1930. It may well have been dark at 1940 when Angelika made the 911 call, but it could only just be dark.

I've lived and played on rivers and bays my whole life. I was a surfer too before I decided that the sharks have more right than I do out there. I've been in and on the water at dusk many times. I just don't agree that the visibility would be nil. Someone at an elevated position, with the last rays of sun shining from behind and down onto to the water, and with the aid of a telescope ..... sounds like he knows how to use the 'scope too. I can see the possibility that some things were witnessed.

I just don't discount the possibility that easily. An easy way to get an indication would be a webcam in the area. I couldn't find one in my searching just now.

Doing a little reading, I came across this seemingly innocent, yet telling blog about the current at Bannerman's Island.

We left planning to go rent a canoe and come back the next day. That evening, I called a friend who is an amateur local historian. "Sure I've been to Bannerman Island. It's covered with poison ivy. And it's infested with snakes and deer ticks. Oh, and watch out for the current. I once watched canoes paddle for hours trying to get to the island. Make sure you put in north of the island when the current is flowing south."

My nerve rushed away like a Hudson River tide. I began to look for a safer way to learn more about this abandoned castle.

http://www.hudsonriver.com/bannerman-island

 

[Samson]

I agree. I have found his posts quite enlightening. The only one I have considered putting on mute is Samson because he simply cannot stay on topic and leave other cases out of anything.

Back on topic. I am kayaker myself though I am no expert. RW has proven that a low riding hull with a missing plug will quite easily sink under the right circumstances. Mine runs the same except that my drain is at the front, in my line of view. But even at that, I don't know that I would notice it missing right away. Given the events, my theory runs that she didn't premeditate it happening, I think she saw the opportunity and took advantage. That plug had to have been removed at the island. He would surely have taken on water on the way out otherwise.

I have discussed many cases on different threads and message boards.
You must be unaware of the adage that those who do not learn the mistakes of history are bound to repeat them.
And the more cases I research, the more the fabric coheres. I never introduce another case to a thread without thinking carefully first. It is simply not possible to understand the complex mechanism underlying the narrative from questioning a witness, to charging that witness, persuading the relatives of the victim that witness is guilty, getting the prosecutor on side to fabricate a case to the jury, achieving a guilty verdict, jailing the witness, appealing the verdict and the sentence and so on without observing how often the pattern is repeated. This process can take decades, when a proper analysis of the crime or in this case accident scene will furnish all the answers.
Here we seem to have reduced the case by concensus to its simplest ingredient.
When was the plug removed by Angelika?

 

[Desert Fox]

I think you're being a little narrow in your focus. Dusk is different on every river.

This whole incident happened between 1920-1940 hrs. Sunset @1930. It may well have been dark at 1940 when Angelika made the 911 call, but it could only just be dark.

You do know that the Hudson river is in a valley with hills on the west and east sides, right? The sun is going to go behind the hills earlier than sunset would indicate.

 

[Shiner]

You do know that the Hudson river is in a valley with hills on the west and east sides, right? The sun is going to go behind the hills earlier than sunset would indicate.

I had assumed that the Hudson Valley has hills to the west, yes. But after consulting a topographic map of the area ....... I'm not seeing any significant elevation due west of Bannerman's Island. The river ia over a mile across there.The hills that I do see appear to be 30 miles to the west. Yes there is elevated ground to the East, South, and less so to the North, but the ground rises very gradually to the west until we get to the Wurtsboro Ridge.

ETA: this video seems to confirm that.