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2012 Debates

citizenzen said:
I thought that ploy was particularly bizarre. It came off like an overly maudlin attempt to humanize Romney and felt fake. I was also curious about Ryan's claim that Romney gave 30% to charity. I'd like to know where that figure came from, because the figures that I've seen don't come close to that.
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I didn't think it came off the way you interpreted it. It may have sounded a little contrived but I feel it was good to counter the notion the Mitt Romney is a heartless person. It certainly matches with what I know of Mormons helping others.

As far as the 30% I must have missed the part where Ryan said it ( I was switching with the Yankee game) but the statement I have heard elsewhere was 30% charity plus taxes.
I know of several instances where wealthy people have acted exactly the same way.
Pop Warner football coach paid for several of his players to go to college without them knowing who their benefactor was, the owner of a farm I worked at paid for the complete dental work of a fairly new employee.
A succesful but not really wealthy lumber salesman would buy 1,000s of dollars of toys, dress as Santa and give them to the kids at the Little Flower Orphanage. These are anectdotal but they are not stories I read about these are cases I personally know.
 
Travis said:
I guess this election isn't a life or death issue for you like it is for me.
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As I told you before, this election is not life and death. I'll say the same thing to you as I would to someone who is afraid that Obama is a Kenyan born Muslim socialist: get a grip.

johnny karate said:
To have your assessment of the debate taken seriously?
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These debates are entertainment made for TV, and I take them as seriously as an episode of the West Wing. What I said before was only about style and performance. There is no substance about which I could seriously comment if I wanted to.
 
I think overall Biden won, but I don't think it was the devastating victory that some here portray it as. i think Ryan supporters think they got their message out, and while Ryan performed, at best (from Ryan-supporters' POV), even with the Veep, the message was delivered.

Biden seemed much more at ease, much better prepared with salient details, and much more willing to give the zinger. Ryan had one good zinger, while Biden probably had three or four, and he didn't have the grasp of the facts that Biden displayed.

On the other hand, I don't think Biden landed any fatal blows. Ryan came across as earnest, if untested. Sure, Biden's smirk was annoying; so was Romney's. I did think Biden interrupted a little too much, and, while many people seemed to like Biden's "You're no Jack Kennedy" retread, to me, it felt like Biden was trying to relive Lloyd Bentsen's 1988 moment. (And, despite it being a defining moment for Quayle... let's not forget that Quayle still became Veep.)

But these are quibbles. Biden managed to deflect most of the weak points in the Democratic position and highlighted Ryan's weaknesses very well. Ryan overplayed his hand when he cited Scranton's unemployment numbers and then claimed "That's happening all over the country", opening himself up to Biden citing actual facts that the economy is recovering.

Overall, Biden won the debate. But I don't think it was a crushing blow. Which is too bad, as I was really hoping Biden could end Ryan's national aspirations the way he helped to end Palin's.

It did energize the Dems. But that momentum can only carry them forward to the next debate. Obama cannot drop the baton Biden is handing him. He does not want to be seen as the weakest of the four debaters!
 
ravdin said:
As I told you before, this election is not life and death. I'll say the same thing to you as I would to someone who is afraid that Obama is a Kenyan born Muslim socialist: get a grip.
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Those of us who have followed Travis's posting history know that for him it is indeed a life or death issue, as it is for some members of my own family.
 
marksman said:
I think overall Biden won, but I don't think it was the devastating victory that some here portray it as. i think Ryan supporters think they got their message out, and while Ryan performed, at best (from Ryan-supporters' POV), even with the Veep, the message was delivered.

Biden seemed much more at ease, much better prepared with salient details, and much more willing to give the zinger. Ryan had one good zinger, while Biden probably had three or four, and he didn't have the grasp of the facts that Biden displayed.

On the other hand, I don't think Biden landed any fatal blows. Ryan came across as earnest, if untested. Sure, Biden's smirk was annoying; so was Romney's. I did think Biden interrupted a little too much, and, while many people seemed to like Biden's "You're no Jack Kennedy" retread, to me, it felt like Biden was trying to relive Lloyd Bentsen's 1988 moment. (And, despite it being a defining moment for Quayle... let's not forget that Quayle still became Veep.)

But these are quibbles. Biden managed to deflect most of the weak points in the Democratic position and highlighted Ryan's weaknesses very well. Ryan overplayed his hand when he cited Scranton's unemployment numbers and then claimed "That's happening all over the country", opening himself up to Biden citing actual facts that the economy is recovering.

Overall, Biden won the debate. But I don't think it was a crushing blow. Which is too bad, as I was really hoping Biden could end Ryan's national aspirations the way he helped to end Palin's.

It did energize the Dems. But that momentum can only carry them forward to the next debate. Obama cannot drop the baton Biden is handing him. He does not want to be seen as the weakest of the four debaters!
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A nitpick - Biden did nothing to start Palin going downhill. She did that all by herself. Biden, if anything, by his kid gloves treatment of her gave her a little credibility for a short time.

And I don't think for the Dems it was a question of gaining momentum so much as making sure that the turn-around continued. The GOP got a bump after the first debate (which I tend to think of as the closeted Republicans among the undecided finally deciding to declare themselves) but after last Friday's monthly unemployment figures, it was already showing that Romney's numbers had peaked and were flattening out and as the foreclosure numbers and weekly employment numbers hit this week, that is likely to continue.

If Ryan had done a 360 slam-dunk over Biden, it could've re-ignited that little surge. He didn't, so while no one's deciding their presidential vote based on the veep debate, it reminds the voters that there are issues out there. Unlike Obama, Biden had an answer for every hair-brained argument that Ryan/Romney are throwing out there, he answered with passion, and his condescension (in spite of what Hannity and Peggie Noonan think) actually worked. How else are you to react to complete nonsense but to laugh.

Again, check out the post debate comments. After Romney/Obama I, many liberals stated that we felt Obama had lost, so we're obviously capable of a little introspection. Funny how you don't see anyone on the liberal side who thinks the laughing, nervousness, arrogance, condescension, whatever it was... cost him the debate or their respect.
 
Lets all keep it in perspective too. Here's some comments fro people on this forum who watched the Obama-Romney debate

SkepticalDrew said:
it's clear Obama is winning and that he resonates more with woman voters.
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In response to someone else saying Romney is winning the debate:
shemp said:
What debate are you watching?
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not_so_new said:
Really??
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shemp said:
I disagree, and I think [Obama]'s doing fine so far.
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not_so_new said:
Yeah, I think Obama is holding his own.
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MattusMaximus said:
That damn smirk of his is going to undo any progress he could have made during the debate.
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MattusMaximus said:
Yup, and that [smirk], more than any other aspect of the debate, is what's going to stick with people who are watching it... especially the undecideds.

Romney shoots himself in the foot, yet again :rolleyes:
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Molinaro said:
Your comment [of Obama struggling] bears no resemblance to the reality of what I'm watching.
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MattusMaximus said:
Incidentally, since - from what I've heard about the Romney Smirk and his body language - I don't think this will really go that well for Romney
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not_so_new said:
Well, I don't think we need the dust to settle at all. It's pretty obvious that Romney didn't get that huge knockout he needed and without that he is in trouble....
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MattusMaximus said:
Between that and the Romney Smirk, I think he just blew it. Well, allow me to clarify: by "blew it", I mean that he blew his chance at scoring any kind of knockout against President Obama. If Obama came across as stuttering, etc in the debate, Romney could have really made some headway, but he had to have the damn Smirk on his face the whole time. Which basically screams "I'm an arrogant jerk".
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Denver said:
I feel the debate winner is tough to call. I don't see a clear winner.
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Slocie's said:
As Mitten's goes down in flames.
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Molinaro said:
Romney got spanked, hard.
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BenBurch said:
Obama did exactly what he needed to do. Not lose.
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R.Mackey said:
Well, without reading what the professionals have to say, I'm going to call this a marginal strategic victory for Obama.
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To be fair, a handful of posters who support Obama said that Romney won. (Had I been posting in this thread at the time, I would hope I would be one of them.) But let's keep this in mind as we discern how objectively all of us are viewing things.
 
So the morning after the debate I've browsed a few different news sites, and listened to both some right-wing and left-wing radio. Overall, while there is spin where you would expect there to be spin, the rest of the sources seem to call the debate as pretty close. Just given what I've been reading, I'd give it to Biden, because the main negatives given against Ryan related to his content, and the main negatives given against Biden related to his demeanor. So I'd give it to the guy who had less problems with content.

But, I don't think the debate really mattered. It may have pushed the undecideds a little one way or the other, but that tilt will be overridden by the upcoming presidential debates anyway.
 
Alferd_Packer said:
One thing I liked about this debate was the informal setting around the table. There was no opportunity for any cheating at the podium like the last debate.
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I'm surprised there's not more talk of the format. I think it was easier for the moderator to control things given her proximity to the candidates.

I found this debate much more substantive than the presidential one, though I liked Obama's performace. I really thought it was great that he didn't jump into the mud with the 47% stuff. I was more impressed with Ryan's performance than Romney's, in terms of maintaining his cool most of the time against a veteran.
 
Foolmewunz said:
A nitpick - Biden did nothing to start Palin going downhill.
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I didn't say Biden started Palin downhill. I think that started with Katie Couric's interview and Biden just helped push the snowball down the mountain.

Foolmewunz said:
Biden, if anything, by his kid gloves treatment of her gave her a little credibility for a short time.
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Well, I guess we each have different memories of that debate. I thought Biden outshined her, outperformed her, and out"facted" her, all the while with a smile on his face.

after last Friday's monthly unemployment figures, it was already showing that Romney's numbers had peaked and were flattening out and as the foreclosure numbers and weekly employment numbers hit this week, that is likely to continue.
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I quite agree. An improving economy is much more important to Obama's reelection than anything Biden (or any other Veep) could have accomplished.

Again, check out the post debate comments. After Romney/Obama I, many liberals stated that we felt Obama had lost, so we're obviously capable of a little introspection. Funny how you don't see anyone on the liberal side who thinks the laughing, nervousness, arrogance, condescension, whatever it was... cost him the debate or their respect.
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Actually, some Obama supporters in this thread specifically said that Romney's smirks cost him his debate. I find that as absurd as the conservatives in this thread saying that Biden's laughs and smirks cost Biden the debate.
 
marksman said:
Actually, some Obama supporters in this thread specifically said that Romney's smirks cost him his debate. I find that as absurd as the conservatives in this thread saying that Biden's laughs and smirks cost Biden the debate.
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Well, I meant to refer to the overall commentary after the dust had settled, so perhaps I should've held off that point for another day or so.
 
Foolmewunz said:
Well, I meant to refer to the overall commentary after the dust had settled, so perhaps I should've held off that point for another day or so.
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Right, but "after the dust has settled" means "after they see their perceptions were not confirmed by the population at large" and they stopped claiming Obama won (or even tied) the debate. You have to look at the comments from before the assessments and polls are released.
 
citizenzen said:
I thought that ploy was particularly bizarre. It came off like an overly maudlin attempt to humanize Romney and felt fake. I was also curious about Ryan's claim that Romney gave 30% to charity. I'd like to know where that figure came from, because the figures that I've seen don't come close to that.
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http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2012/09/mitt-romney.html

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...mney-tax-returns-2011/70000874/1#.UHg1OVEZ9_M

I thought I saw the figures on politifact at one point but for the life of me I can't find which article that was in. But the 30% figure comes from his tax returns.
 
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