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2012 Debates

TheShadow said:
I'd say that Obama could take some debate lessons from his #2, and he'd likely do alot better come next week.
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There's both potential and peril here. If Obama learns what an advocate can do, he'll clean Mitt's clock in Round 2. However, if he shows up with his incessant bipartisan nonsense and scholarly detachment, he'll look pathetic compared to Joe...and that will be very bad.
 
Part of what undid Ryan was his constant railiong against Obama's changes to Medicare as regards Medicare advantage. This seems to be his pet project. Did that blithering twit not get the memo that MA is too bloody expensive and does not deliver any better health care?

Biden also took him to the wood shed on military strength. He stated flatly that the Joint Chiefs did not want more troops over-all, but more Special Forces type formations.

Biden scored again when Ryan started carping about giving a day certain for withdrawl, and Biden simply told him that, without a clear deadline, the Afghan government was less likely to fully commit to assuming the full responsibility for their own defense.

When a Democrat has to lecture a Republicon on military strategy, that little pachyderm is in a world of hurt.

Remember the instant input graphs they had on screen when Obama debated McCain in 2008 in front of some undecided Ohio voters? Remember how McCain's line started dipping and Obama's rose when they were discussing the wars?

This does not look good for Willard and his side kick.
 
Wait, suddenly Republicans are complaining about smirking? Did they watch the first debate at all? :confused:
 
johnny karate said:
He absolutely schooled Ryan on Afghanistan. He made Ryan look like he had no idea what he was talking about.
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Did anyone else get the feeling that Ryan was doing his best to drop in place names trying to show off his knowledge of Afghan geography?
 
One thing I liked about this debate was the informal setting around the table. There was no opportunity for any cheating at the podium like the last debate.
 
Upchurch said:
Obama's foreign policy is falling apart because Americans are out of work here at home, maybe?

(I have to sift through the transcript and find that line.)
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LOL

If that's the best "point" Ryan scored, then the GOP is in a world of trouble.
 
Alferd_Packer said:
LOL

If that's the best "point" Ryan scored, then the GOP is in a world of trouble.
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from what I caught on the radio, Ryans point were devoid of substance.
Along the lines of "an American ambassador getting killed is indicative of a failed foreirn policy and crumbling US safety infrastructure".

Or something.

I've noticed that people on sceptical forums tend to look at substance and forget how much this is about perception.

You could have a guy confidently declare 'Eeny Meeny Miny Mo' with a serious look, straight face, booming voice and the right use of dramatic pauses. And he could be perfectly electable.
 
One thing that didn't work for Ryan:

He tried to score points with his anecdote about Romney's generosity toward car crash victims. He probably should have done a little bit of background research before choosing that particular anecdote.

I'm not sure, but Biden's tone might have turned a bit more aggressive after that. He was smirking and laughing right from the beginning, but during the middle portion of the debate he seemed downright angry and lecturing.

My wife is usually a much better judge of who "won" debates than I am. She's a psychologist and much more of a "people person" than I am. She thought Biden was too condescending. She felt that Biden probably thinks he's smarter than everyone around him, and it looked like he was offended that he had to share the stage with Ryan. On the other hand, she felt Ryan looked both immature and overwhelmed, like he didn't know what to do next. Overall, she thought it was a bit of a tie.

My own opinion, and this might be seeing through blue colored glasses, is that means the Democrats got the upper hand. The previous baseball metaphor seems really appropriate. The winning run is at second base and Obama is stepping up to the plate.

But I'm even more optimistic than that. I think it's a tie game and there's only one out.
 
It's funny - I just re-watched the second half because I'd initially been watching/listening to the TV coverage and alternating my attention to the CNN on-line coverage with the bar graph. I get a little obsessive-compulsive at times and I was so busy watching (and trying to figure out) the response bars on the screen that I hadn't even noticed the dodging when she asked them to answer her war hero's point about the dirty campaign. Biden got in 78% flag-waving and then at least tried to spin out an answer (blaming it on the uncontrollable PACs). Ryan, though, got in about 25% flag-waving and then 75% of bullet points attacking the administration and 0% of what he thought of the campaign tactics this year.

Did he think he was running out of time and this was the only opportunity he'd have to run down this list? Or did he have no answer so just plain ignored the question?
 
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johnny karate said:
The assessment of this debate should be an interesting litmus on honesty and self-delusion. I don't recall many liberals claiming Obama won the last debate. Let's see how many conservatives will claim Ryan won this one.
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All of them. They have to. They have nothing else left.

Biden beat Ryan like a rented mule.
 
The guys you don't see in the inaugural parade

Halfcentaur said:
I think there's a very real possibility the "undecideds" think Obama has failed at getting the Republicans to compromise, whether that's due to Obama's lack of ability or if it's due to the GOP's unwillingness to budge does not matter. . . .
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All voters, especially the undecided, must realize that this election is probably not as much about the guys at the top of the ticket as it is about who they bring with them. In 2008, it was necessary to oust the Repubs to dislodge the neocons who were infecting the administration and running Bush. I fear that a Romney win would see the neocons trooping in again, this time closely followed by the so-called "Tea Party," which looks even more regressive than the neocons.

This is a truly appalling prospect.
 
Foolmewunz said:
It's funny - I just re-watched the second half because I'd initially been watching/listening to the TV coverage and alternating my attention to the CNN on-line coverage with the bar graph.
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Unfortunately, we recorded CNN. That stupid graph was so distracting it was maddening.
 
Lemastre said:
All voters, especially the undecided, must realize that this election is probably not as much about the guys at the top of the ticket as it is about who they bring with them. In 2008, it was necessary to oust the Repubs to dislodge the neocons who were infecting the administration and running Bush. I fear that a Romney win would see the neocons trooping in again, this time closely followed by the so-called "Tea Party," which looks even more regressive than the neocons.

This is a truly appalling prospect.
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This is the thinking of many better-informed voters this year. There are a whole lot of more conservative Dems (think Reagan Republicans) in Mass who are stating outright that in any other year they might actually give Brown a pass, but that with control of the Senate possibly riding on it, they won't take that chance.

And Biden took advantage of his reputation as a whacko to blurt out that bit about the Supreme Court. I can't recall but was it even remotely related to the topic/question of the moment? But that point was directed to the more far-seeing voters on the left who might not yet feel motivated to vote, I feel.
 
Meadmaker said:
One thing that didn't work for Ryan:

He tried to score points with his anecdote about Romney's generosity toward car crash victims.
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I thought that ploy was particularly bizarre. It came off like an overly maudlin attempt to humanize Romney and felt fake. I was also curious about Ryan's claim that Romney gave 30% to charity. I'd like to know where that figure came from, because the figures that I've seen don't come close to that.
 
citizenzen said:
I thought that ploy was particularly bizarre. It came off like an overly maudlin attempt to humanize Romney and felt fake. I was also curious about Ryan's claim that Romney gave 30% to charity. I'd like to know where that figure came from, because the figures that I've seen don't come close to that.
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Furthermore, I am way unimpressed with the notion of LDS tithing counting as charity -- as something that benefits needy people. Personally, I tabulate it as the opposite of charity.
 
varwoche said:
Furthermore, I am way unimpressed with the notion of LDS tithing counting as charity -- as something that benefits needy people. Personally, I tabulate it as the opposite of charity.
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But I don't think the average voting citizen would agree you.
 
Wow, Charlie Pierce isn't holding back any....

For years, Paul Ryan has been the shining champion of some really terrible ideas, and of a dystopian vision of the political commonwealth in which the poor starve and the elderly die ghastly, impoverished deaths, while all the essential elements of a permanent American oligarchy were put in place. This has garnered him loving notices from a lot of people who should have known better. The ideas he could explain were bad enough, but the profound ignorance he displayed on Thursday night on a number of important questions, including when and where the United States might wind up going to war next, and his blithe dismissal of any demand that he be specific about where he and his running mate are planning to take the country generally, was so positively terrifying that it calls into question Romney's judgment for putting this unqualified greenhorn on the ticket at all. Joe Biden laughed at him? Of course, he did. The only other option was to hand him a participation ribbon and take him to Burger King for lunch.

You know what's the difference between Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan?

Lipstick.
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