15 years will be good to see. Hell, even 10. Far better than the ridiculous slap over the wrist he got last time. This is a good day for the SA justice system.
Oh good, we don't disagree on everything
15 years will be good to see. Hell, even 10. Far better than the ridiculous slap over the wrist he got last time. This is a good day for the SA justice system.
Except he successfully defended his girl friend from endangerment from an evil intruder.
Sampson, I await a retraction and apology for being so wrong.
Justice for Reeva at last. He's a murderer and Masipa is an incompetent judge. She will be directed to make sure the sentence is appropriate this time, that's for sure.
Pistorius murder verdict: key points
The appeal court found that Judge Thokozile Masipa had made errors in law when reaching her original verdict of culpable homicide.
The appeal judges said Masipa was wrong in her application of dolus eventualis, as Pistorius “must have foreseen” that firing into the door could cause the death of whoever was behind it.
Masipa also wrongly conflated the test of dolus eventualis with dolus directus in accepting that the defence argument that he did not know the person behind the door was Steenkamp meant he could not be guilty of murder.
Masipa’s verdict was premised upon an acceptance that Pistorius did not think Steenkamp was in the toilet, but this was also wrong: the key thing is that the perpetrator knows his actions could kill that person, whoever it is.
The failure to take into account all the evidence – in particular, key ballistics evidence – amounted to a failure in law, the judges said.
Sampson, I await a retraction and apology for being so wrong.
This reversal is a travesty. Masipa understood that the sequence was 4 gunshots, then Pistorius screaming in anguish as he realised he had silenced his girlfriend with gunshots, then 4 strikes with the bat.I wouldn't push this too hard. You may have missed an attempt at humour or irony.
This reversal is a travesty. Masipa understood that the sequence was 4 gunshots, then Pistorius screaming in anguish as he realised he had silenced his girlfriend with gunshots, then 4 strikes with the bat.
This is an absurd judgement.
.....Masipa understood that the sequence was 4 gunshots.........
I find it incomprehensible that the world at large has determined that this act falls within any statistical norm, if in fact Oscar Pistorius knew Reeva was behind that door. It fails every test. What occurred was a collective voyeuristic wish that this extreme act aligned neatly with an extreme character, and we could all rejoice as the pack deconstructed it. I am perfectly certain that Oscar's account is true and the only one that makes sense and fits the facts. As a non gunner, I don't particularly object to his pending fate.And she was wrong. Comprehensively.
And she was wrong. Comprehensively.
That's all you need to know. At that point, having had a reasonable expectation that those shots would kill whoever was behind the door, he is guilty of murder.
The state of the bladder is a silly aside.
I see this case as a one trick pony, where the only interesting fact to be ascertained is the "knowledge of Pistorius". All punishment should accommodate this fact finding, and I agree completely with Masipa. I have said before that Icerat and Leila Schnepps made identical findings to Masipa, three fiercely independent analysts. I was shocked when everyone I mentioned the case to said guilty as sin as one, when I decided with no knowledge, the proposition of a wealthy man deliberately shooting his girlfriend was absurd, and that a completely plausible alternative theory was available.Yes she was dreadfully wrong.
And Samson, I think that in this case, you've come to the wrong conclusion based on the available evidence. The critical point is that it is, in law, immaterial who Pistorius thought he was shooting at through the door. The important thing is that 1) he knew there was a human being behind the door, 2) he knew that his gun and its ammunition were easily capable of passing through the door and hitting the person behind the door, 3) he must (not should or could) have known that he was not in imminent danger of injury or death from the person behind the door, and 4) he must (not should or could) have known that by firing his gun and its specialist ammunition with aimed shots through the door four times there was a significant probability that he would seriously injure or kill whoever was behind the door.
All those four things, taken together, mean that dolus eventualis for murder has been met in this instance. The court never had to show that he knew (or even must have known, or even ought to have known) that it was Reeva Steenkamp behind that door rather than the mythical intruder. Personally, I think that as a search for the truth, its highly more likely than not that he did indeed know that it was Steenkamp behind the door. I believe that the most likely scenario by far is that they had an argument of escalating severity in the bedroom, and that she started to get dressed to leave the house. I think he threatened her or even physically assaulted her in the bedroom at that point, causing her to abandon getting dressed and run to the bathroom with her phone. I think she locked herself in the toilet, pursued by Pistorius with a gun in his hand. I think she probably signalled to him that she was about to phone either the police or a friend/relative, and that this is what pushed him over the edge as he realised the potential repercussions to him, both reputationally and potentially also legally. I think this is what enraged him into firing the shots through the door.
But I reiterate, all the court had to decide was whether he knew there was a human being behind that door, that whoever Pistorius believed was behind that door posed no imminent threat to Pistorius (or anyone else), and that shooting through the door was likely to seriously injure or kill that person. I suspect that Steenkamp's friends and family will never be entirely satisfied that the court hasn't ruled that Pistorius knew it was Steenkamp at whom he was shooting, but that was never likely (or, indeed, necessary for proving murder).
Well no, the state of the bladder proves Pistorius' story. No woman fleeing a threat sits and urinates.That's all you need to know. At that point, having had a reasonable expectation that those shots would kill whoever was behind the door, he is guilty of murder.
The state of the bladder is a silly aside.
I see this case as a one trick pony, where the only interesting fact to be ascertained is the "knowledge of Pistorius". All punishment should accommodate this fact finding, and I agree completely with Masipa. I have said before that Icerat and Leila Schnepps made identical findings to Masipa, three fiercely independent analysts. I was shocked when everyone I mentioned the case to said guilty as sin as one, when I decided with no knowledge, the proposition of a wealthy man deliberately shooting his girlfriend was absurd, and that a completely plausible alternative theory was available.
Well no, the state of the bladder proves Pistorius' story. No woman fleeing a threat sits and urinates.
I infer you suggest Steenkamp urinated while terrified. I do not buy that. Not at all.No it doesn't. This post of yours is absolute rubbish.
... the proposition of a wealthy man deliberately shooting his girlfriend was absurd, and that a completely plausible alternative theory was available.
Yes she was dreadfully wrong.
And Samson, I think that in this case, you've come to the wrong conclusion based on the available evidence. The critical point is that it is, in law, immaterial who Pistorius thought he was shooting at through the door. The important thing is that 1) he knew there was a human being behind the door, 2) he knew that his gun and its ammunition were easily capable of passing through the door and hitting the person behind the door, 3) he must (not should or could) have known that he was not in imminent danger of injury or death from the person behind the door, and 4) he must (not should or could) have known that by firing his gun and its specialist ammunition with aimed shots through the door four times there was a significant probability that he would seriously injure or kill whoever was behind the door.
All those four things, taken together, mean that dolus eventualis for murder has been met in this instance. The court never had to show that he knew (or even must have known, or even ought to have known) that it was Reeva Steenkamp behind that door rather than the mythical intruder. Personally, I think that as a search for the truth, its highly more likely than not that he did indeed know that it was Steenkamp behind the door. I believe that the most likely scenario by far is that they had an argument of escalating severity in the bedroom, and that she started to get dressed to leave the house. I think he threatened her or even physically assaulted her in the bedroom at that point, causing her to abandon getting dressed and run to the bathroom with her phone. I think she locked herself in the toilet, pursued by Pistorius with a gun in his hand. I think she probably signalled to him that she was about to phone either the police or a friend/relative, and that this is what pushed him over the edge as he realised the potential repercussions to him, both reputationally and potentially also legally. I think this is what enraged him into firing the shots through the door.
But I reiterate, all the court had to decide was whether he knew there was a human being behind that door, that whoever Pistorius believed was behind that door posed no imminent threat to Pistorius (or anyone else), and that shooting through the door was likely to seriously injure or kill that person. I suspect that Steenkamp's friends and family will never be entirely satisfied that the court hasn't ruled that Pistorius knew it was Steenkamp at whom he was shooting, but that was never likely (or, indeed, necessary for proving murder).
But I reiterate, all the court had to decide was whether he knew there was a human being behind that door, that whoever Pistorius believed was behind that door posed no imminent threat to Pistorius (or anyone else), and that shooting through the door was likely to seriously injure or kill that person. I suspect that Steenkamp's friends and family will never be entirely satisfied that the court hasn't ruled that Pistorius knew it was Steenkamp at whom he was shooting, but that was never likely (or, indeed, necessary for proving murder).
I read all of the above points from the judgment, but i can't understand how the conclusion can be arrived at that Pistorius did not know he was in imminent danger.
.......I do wonder whether he'll appeal.....
Well no, the state of the bladder proves Pistorius' story. No woman fleeing a threat sits and urinates.
It is my reading that the only appeal he has left is to the constitutional court, and the only grounds for that would be that some human rights law has been breached during the trial. Legal experts have said that there appears to be no such case to even answer, so, if they are right, he won't be appealing because he can't.
Aislinn Laing then tweeted "Wonder if Judge Leach didn't perhaps nod to the open door to Constitutional Court appeal with ref to media glare?" and Dadic replied "Roux also mentioned it in his closing, at trial / sentence, it was always on the cards".4 - constitutional appeals are very hard to come by- I've only done 2 in 17 years - but I think he may have an argument- was his trial fair?
5 - Constitution calls for a fair trial - did the TV coverage allow for that? were witnesses intimidated by seeing Nel on tv?
7 - and again I really believe they have the finances to launch that appeal and I think n face value they have grounds to at least be heard.
To my understanding, unlike Stand Your Ground states in the U.S., apparently in South Africa the standard for the use of deadly force is not what the defendant claims to have believed but the 'reasonable person' standard. Would a reasonable person have believed that the use of deadly force was absolutely necessary in this situation to protect themselves from imminent serious injury or death? Being that Pistorius, at best, did not who was in the bathroom or why, that no threats had been made, that he had the means to safely escape the apartment, that he had the means to summon police, I would think the answer is no: a reasonable person would have thought there were many alternatives besides using deadly force.
You really should look up the Confirmation Bias fallacy.
No, the reasonable person test applies to culpable homicide - it's an objective test. That's why Pistorius was convicted of culpable homicide, because a reasonable person would have known that the force he used was excessive. Murder, on the other hand, depends on the person's beliefs and state of mind at the time, it's a subjective test. A person needs to have the necessary criminal intention to murder. If Pistorius believed there was an intruder and that his life was in danger from the intruder at the moment he shot, that's likely to be culpable homicide rather than murder (because he believed the shooting was lawful, hence lacked the necessary criminal intention).
Yes, but the court still has to decide whether this alleged "belief" was honestly held.
Example: I am walking down the street with a knife in my pocket when another man (whom I don't know and have never met before) approaches me walking in the other direction. As the man nears me, he reaches into his own pocket (it later transpired that he was reaching for his mobile phone). I pull out my knife and stab the man once in the heart, killing him. I might try to claim in court that I genuinely believed the man was reaching for a deadly weapon with which to assault me, and that therefore my own knife attack on him was justifiable self-defence. While this is a subjective test, the court can still decide that I am lying about what I claim to have believed, and thus convict me of murder.
And likewise, the judges in the Pistorius case are entitled to conclude that he is lying when he claims to have been acting in terrified self-defence. In fact, the confused and contradictory nature of Pistorius' defence and his various conflicting statements lends real weight to the prospect that Pistorius was making stuff up to try to avoid facing the harshest verdict and punishment. He contradicted himself on what he said he heard from behind the door, and whether he really believed the door was opening as he took aim to shoot.
Don't start that. The whole point of this forum area was to allow discussion of differing views about legal decisions without somebody who was so sure of their rectitude shouting "CT is thataway ----->"
Jeffrey MacDonald is a hell of a lot more obviously guilty than Pistorius, and that thread's still there.
Rectitude has nothing to do with it, it's based on fact, exactly as the Appeal Court judges have ruled.
In short: Oscar Pistorius guilty: He knew someone was in there. He shot to kill. And that is murder.
It just doesn't come any simpler than this case. The original judge made a legal error in not using that simple formula above. Any disagreement with that is both spurious and contrarian.
Never heard of him.
well I'm one who accepted Pistorius could be telling the truth, but I have no particular problem with this verdict. I understand the reasoning both behind the initial decision and this one and without sitting in the court and not being a South African legal expert, have to leave it to those experts.
Kinda where I was in the beginning.It was and is difficult for me to understand how the defendant could discount the obvious possibility that the reason his bathroom was mysteriously occupied was that the other person staying in his home was using it. I saw nothing in his defense that reasonably indicated why he felt that possibility was beneath consideration.
I think he murdered his girlfriend because he was enraged with her.
I think he murdered his girlfriend because he was enraged with her.
It was and is difficult for me to understand how the defendant could discount the obvious possibility that the reason his bathroom was mysteriously occupied was that the other person staying in his home was using it. I saw nothing in his defense that reasonably indicated why he felt that possibility was beneath consideration.
I think he murdered his girlfriend because he was enraged with her.