The Power of Prayer.

[Aepervius]

But the power of Prayer does exist in the experiences of those (perhaps billions) who use it.

The 'agency' credited depends on the particular Meme which the individual is aligned with and supports.

The individual does the crediting, or acknowledges and supports the leaders of whatever particular Meme the individual belongs to and supports - in agreeing with those leaders as to the agency.

Oh, and like gods, prayer never healed an amputee. Or woke up deads.

 

[Aepervius]

Tell them to pray they will live forever.

At the point their prayer fails, they will cease to believe.

At the point their prayer fails, they will cease to believe

 

[s4zando]

Navigator, I'm trying to get a clear picture of your core argument here. Are you trying to say that because there are so many people who believe that prayer works, it is useless to try to convince them otherwise? Is that what you mean by 'power' of prayer, aka 'force' to be 'reckoned' with?

 

[Navigator]

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/nomdart/powerofprayer.pdf

It seems obvious that the expression 'The Power Of Prayer' can be confused for "Prayer is Powerful"

That is understandable and exactly why I used it.

The way I used it though was not dishonest because the OP explained that I was referring to the power of influence that this belief has over billions of people, which is truthful and pertinent.

This is not to say that prayer, the personal practice of - is a bad thing or useless thing. It is simply a subjective thing which has the ability to assist the individual seeking clarity and understanding which might not even be available to the individual any other way, or those other ways might not be attractive to that individual as better alternatives.


That can in itself be a powerful thing for the individual. Anything which may help the individual help themselves and by association help others, is indeed a powerful thing.

No amount of mockery (no matter how 'intelligent' it presents,) would change that or overcome it in any way...it is more powerful than such monkey manners as sarcasm, personality attacks and other such forms adolescent like behaviors which signify 'still growing up' rather than 'have matured' and is more a tool used to stifle the art of good communication than to assist it.

Fortunately not all who use prayer act that way, anymore than those who don't.
I am fortunate that I know skeptics and believers and the somewhere in-betweeners who are mature enough having learned to forgo monkeying around in favor of refined intelligence. They are great reflections of the fact that Human Consciousness is indeed Evolving.
(May they spread and multiply)

Thank you for being that personality in relation to me...and if you are not, well it is not a biggy in relation to who I am in this awesome reality. It has no power to crush my sense of self appreciation or my appreciation for Human Consciousness - and if prayer helped me in some way to see this, then yes, it is more powerful.

 

[Aepervius]

Yes - I realized that was what you were referring to but that 'god' or any other outside force wont grow his legs back, he has an artificial one which he might consider was 'an answer to a prayer' which is what I will ask him...something like.

Q: Did you ever seriously ask 'god' or anything else for your leg back?

If "yes" then:

Q: Do you consider your artificial leg to be some kind of answer to that prayer from the invisible agent you were asking?

Which is the most stupid way to say amputee's prayer were answered, because if an amputee prayed or did not pray, it would not matter as it was the MEDICAL advance of a third aprty (doctor/researcher/prosthetic builder) which did the work.

You know pretty well what is meant when we say prayer /gods never answer to amputee : that no matter how much they pray, once their limb is gone, it is gone.

So be our guest. Find *one* amputee which prayed and got his limb grown back. And by amptuee I mean: bone was gone and there is a röntgen photo to prove it.

 

[Navigator]

Navigator, I'm trying to get a clear picture of your core argument here. Are you trying to say that because there are so many people who believe that prayer works, it is useless to try to convince them otherwise? Is that what you mean by 'power' of prayer, aka 'force' to be 'reckoned' with?

Funny you should ask s4zando, I just posted information which clarifies the intent of the thread and the confusion many have with the use and expression of 'The Power Of Prayer'.

I think the OP was more than adequate to explaining what direction I was 'coming from' especially if one actually read it before they decided to make argument against it.

And if not, there is always the sensible alternative of seeking clarification from the thread starter in regards to the OP.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Navigator, how do YOU think it works?

What kind of prayers do you think are answered, and what do you think answers them?

 

[Arcade22]

The way I used it though was not dishonest because the OP explained that I was referring to the power of influence that this belief has over billions of people, which is truthful and pertinent.

You said:

I have personally used it throughout the greater proportion of my life and have come to recognise the different ways it can be expressed – verbally, in the thoughts, through the emotions, and I have never been disappointed at the results although I can also say that the prayer may not have been answered in any specific way that I may have personally visualised, it does nonetheless show itself to be connected to my request and always shows itself to be a better – more well adjusted and useful – unfolding than any I may have imagined.

Show that your prayer is more than magical thinking and self-delusion.

 

[zeggman]

the power of prayer. It is an influential thing to which a large majority of the worlds population practice.
A power to be reckoned with.

No more than fortune cookies or horoscopes are a power to be reckoned with. They're incapable of doing anything other than wasting the time of their devotees.

It seems obvious that the expression 'The Power Of Prayer' can be confused for "Prayer is Powerful"

That is understandable and exactly why I used it.

Fuzzy thinkers frequently seek to hide their fuzzy thinking in deliberate confusion.

The feeble minded will sometimes mistake fuzziness for profundity. Fuzzy thinkers love it when that happens.

Anything which may help the individual help themselves and by association help others, is indeed a powerful thing.

Here's an example of the power of prayer:

"the scammers convince their targets that they face terrible tragedy that they can only avoid if they place their valuables in a bag — and then pray over it. Usually, the victims place their jewelry and money in a bag that the thieves swap out for an identical one. And then the thieves tell the women not to open the bag for days."

Some more patient scammers will exchange small sums for "prayer cloths" or the promise to pray on behalf of the victim. So prayer has the power to separate the gullible from their valuables, at least.

No amount of mockery (no matter how 'intelligent' it presents,) would change that or overcome it in any way...it is more powerful than such monkey manners as sarcasm, personality attacks and other such forms adolescent like behaviors which signify 'still growing up' rather than 'have matured' and is more a tool used to stifle the art of good communication than to assist it.

Fuzzy thinking and the deliberate use of confusion also stifles good communication.

And if not, there is always the sensible alternative of seeking clarification from the thread starter in regards to the OP.

At this point, I think the most sensible alternative is to avoid conversations with fuzzy thinkers.

I haven't read "Mind and Cosmos", but it sounds like it would be right up your alley. If you haven't already, maybe you should check it out.

 

[Polaris]

Navigator, how do YOU think it works?

What kind of prayers do you think are answered, and what do you think answers them?

God, and He answers the ones he wants to answer, duuuuUUUUuuuh!

 

[Navigator]

Navigator, how do YOU think it works?

Mark.
By ‘it’ I can presume you mean “Prayer?
As a system, prayer works something like:

Prayer in relation to the individual is itself a ‘personal request’ which involves the manipulation of events outside of ones own ability to effect in a way which ‘makes it happen’.

This does not signify that the person is not necessarily a part of that ‘make it happen’ process but that there are aspects involved which are outside of their ability to effect yet are necessary in order for the event to happen.

What kind of prayers do you think are answered?

Personal prayers - :
Furthermore, my personal understanding is this:

I have never been disappointed at the results although I can also say that the prayer may not have been answered in any specific way that I may have personally visualised, it does nonetheless show itself to be connected to my request and always shows itself to be a better – more well adjusted and useful – unfolding than any I may have imagined.

This is to say, while I can identify an answered prayer, it does not always manifest in the way I thought it might. The underlying power of this though, is that it allows opportunity for the individual to think/ponder/focus/wonder about how the answer manifested in relation to quite a number of things to do with the individuals’ growth, maturity, sense of self identity and purpose, and with this the opportunity to adjust behaviour accordingly as necessary.

What do you think answers them?

I can only speculate on ‘what’ that is.
For now I will say, I speculate that what answers them might be exactly that which prompts them to be asked in the first instance.

 

[Navigator]

Show that your prayer is more than magical thinking and self-delusion.

Or:
Explain that Prayer is inspired by 'magical' thinking and self helpful as a tool for personal growth and development of nurturing qualities in relation to personal life experience, purpose and of the wonder of Human Consciousness and its tiny little place in the Galaxy and the supportive qualities which arise from such 'magical' thinking - and while there may well be other tools which can do the job with equal intensity and secure the same results, to argue any one of them to be better than the rest is to argue which 'brand' of tool to use, which is a manufacturers prerogative when trying to sell the tool, but has no real bearing on actually getting the same job done.

 

[Anerystos]

I am beginning to get quite hacked off by this frequent descent into the god/prayer/spoon bending/mind reading/whatever you like universe versus [negate all the preceding] universe.

The non-believers will never convince the believers of the error of their ways.

The believers will never convince the non-believers of the error of their ways.

Give it a rest guys. Let’s get on with some serious discussions.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

Yes - I realized that was what you were referring to but that 'god' or any other outside force wont grow his legs back, he has an artificial one which he might consider was 'an answer to a prayer' which is what I will ask him...something like.

Q: Did you ever seriously ask 'god' or anything else for your leg back?

If "yes" then:

Q: Do you consider your artificial leg to be some kind of answer to that prayer from the invisible agent you were asking?

Ahhh so all those other people didn't ask "seriously" enough, You worship a very sick and demented deity.

ETA: Artificial leg =/= regrown limb

 

[Navigator]

You worship a very sick and demented deity.

I worship no deity. My general understanding is that anything which demands or otherwise requires worship cannot be considered to even be 'deity'.

 

[NoahFence]

"I pray that tornado doesn't hit there!"

<insert Moore, Oklahoma>

"I pray for those affected"

Prayer doesn't work.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Trying to justify prayer without a deity to pray to somehow makes prayer make even less sense.

If there's some giant sky wizard up there... asking him for sorta makes sense internally depending on how you look at it. It doesn't answer the question of why he nevers answers, but hey one step at a time.

Removing that from the equation pretty much turns praying into "Wanting stuff really hard makes it happen" and there far, far too few naked Tia Carrere's in my bedroom right now for that to be a reasonable possibility.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

I worship no deity. My general understanding is that anything which demands or otherwise requires worship cannot be considered to even be 'deity'.

OK, so what exactly am I supposed to be praying to then?

 

[Navigator]

The non-believers will never convince the believers of the error of their ways.

The believers will never convince the non-believers of the error of their ways.

That is it in a nut shell.

Same as:
The wooists will never convince the whop-de-doists
The whop-de-doists will never convince the wooists
....Republican - Democratic...Russians - Americans etc...etc...

...all memes engaged in significantly non appropriate use of intelligence...fortunately there is the path between extremes which is somewhat more sensible because it is not clouded by the labels and bias to which these oppositions are associated with and adhere to...and that which walks such a path is more able to focus on the real concerns of Human Consciousness to which I have and will continue to point to as a good thing to focus upon.
While the 'sides' battle it out, the world turns. Those engaged in the battle are missing the signs of peace.

 

[Navigator]

OK, so what exactly am I supposed to be praying to then?

Who said you were supposed to be praying to anything?