General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Ziggurat]

How is genocide a matter of moral relativity?

I said it was a matter of subjectivity, not relativity. There is a difference.

Most societies throughout human history agree that killing is wrong, and even more so that mass killing is wrong.

Quite true. There are many subjective issues on which vast majorities agree. That doesn't make these issues not subjective.

It is clear that some societies choose to be subjective in their application of this moral principle, but the immorality of killing an entire segment of the human species has never been seen as something which is subjective.

And yet, it is subjective, regardless of whether people understand that.

You seem to have a problem with that conclusion. I wonder why. Perhaps you think that if you acknowledge that this value is subjective, you will have to abandon it. That is not true, but I can see no other reason to object to my position.

But let's not forget where this topic came from. bikerdruid tried to dismiss a claim about the superiority of Eastern European culture to Islamic culture on the grounds that this evaluation was subjective. And it is quite true that that evaluation is subjective. But you, for example, seem intent on defending the validity of a subjective value judgment. And the truth is that I actually share common ground with you in the sense that we both think genocide is an appalling wrong. That I consider this subjective does not mean I believe it any less firmly.

So if we have a subjective value that we consider valid and worth defending vociferously, then the fact that a value is subjective is not sufficient to dismiss it. bikerdruid's objection cannot withstand logical scrutiny without abandoning the very concepts of right and wrong. Now, you may or may not agree with Virus about his specific subjective evaluation of the merits of Arab culture vs. Eastern European culture, but in order to ague against his position, you need some grounds other than bikerdruid's to do so.

But of course, bikerdruid offered nothing more than pointing out the subjectivity of Virus's statement. It was an intellectually lazy response which has no logical coherence outside of absolute moral relativism, and that position itself would be in drastic conflict with your own expressed abhorence for genocide.

 

[JihadJane]

1. Ahmad Al-Ja’bary, 52 years old.
2. Mohammed Al-Hams, 28 years old.
3. Rinan Arafat, 4 years old.
4. Omar Al-Mashharawi, 11 Month old
5. Essam Abu-Alma’za, 20 years old.
6. Mohammed Al-Qaseer, 20 years old.
7. Heba Al-Mashharawi, six-months pregnant, 19 years old.
8. Mahmoud Abu Sawawin, 65 years old.
9. Habis Hassan Mismih, 29 years old.
10. Wael Haidar Al-Ghalban, 31 years old.
11. Hehsam Mohammed Al-Ghalban, 31 years old.
12. Rani Hammad, 29 years old.
13. Khaled Abi Nasser, 27 year old.
14. Marwan Abu Al-Qumsan, 52 years old.
15. Walid Al-Abalda, 2 years old.
16. Hanin Tafesh, 10 months old.
17. Oday Jammal Nasser, 16 years old.
18. Fares Al-Basyouni, 11 years old.
19. Mohammed Sa’d Allah, 4 years old.
20. Ayman Abu Warda, 22 years old.
21. Tahrir Suliman, 20 years old.
22. Ismael Qandil, 24 years old.
23. Younis Kamal Tafesh, 55 years old.
24. Mohammed Talal Suliman,28 years old.
25. Amjad Mohammed Abu-Jalal, 32 years old.
26. Ziyad Farhan Abu-Jalal, 23 years old.
27. Ayman Mohammed Abu Jalal, 44 years old.
28. Hassan Salem Al-Heemla’, 27 years old.
29. Khaled Khalil Al-Shaer, 24 years old.
30. Ayman Rafeeq Saleem, 26 years old.
31. Ashraf Hassan Darwish, 22 years old
32. Osama Mousa Abdel Jawwad, 27 years old
33. Ali Abdul Hakim Almana'ama, 20 years old
34. Mokhlis Adwan, 30 years old
35. Ahmed Osama Al-Atroosh, 22 years old
36. Mohammed Saleh Aloulhai, 22 years old
37. Awad Hamdy Al-Nahhal, 23 years old
38. Abdel Rahman Salem Al-Masri, 31 years old
39. Mohammed Mahmoud Yassin, 24 years old
40. Osama Abdel Jawad, 25 years old
41. Ali Hassan Ali bin Said, 25 years old, killed in an attack on his motorbike in Deer Al-Balah, central Gaza, at 8:10 pm, November 17.
42. Mohammed Sabri Al Weydaat, 25 years old
43. Osama Yousif Al-Qadi, 26 years old.
44. Ahmed Salem Salama Said, 42 years old
45. Hani Abdel Majid Aberriam, 21 years old
46. Samaher Khalil Qudeih, 28 years old
47. Tamer Al Hemry, 26 years old
48. Tamer Salameh Abu Sufyan, 3 years old
49. Jumana Salameh Abu Sufyan, 1 years old
50. Muhamed Abu Nuqira, age unconfirmed
51. Iyad Abu Khousa, 18 months old
52. Tasneem Zuhaer Al Halal, 13 years old
53. Ahmad Essam Al-Nahhal, 25 years old
54. Nawal Farag Abdelaal, 52 years old
55. Ahmed Hassan, 27 years old
56. Mohammed Jamal Al Dalou, (grandfather of Dalou family), Age Unconfirmed
57. Ibrahim Mohammed Jamal Al Dalou, 1 year old
58. Raneen Mohammed Jamal Al Dalou, 5 years old
59. Jamal Mohammed Jamal Al Dalou, 7 years old
60. Yousef Mohammed Jamal Al Dalou, 10 years old
61. Samah Al Dalou, 25 years old
62. Sulafa Al Dalou, 46 years old
63. Tahani Al Dalou, 50 years old
64. Amina Matar Al-Mzanner, 83 years old
65. Abdallah Mohammed Al-Mzanner, 23 years old
66. Jamal Al Dalou, (father of Dalou family), age unconfirmed
67. Hussam Abu Shaweesh, 37 years old
68. Suhail Hammad, 45 years old
69. Mo'min Hammad, 15 years old
70. Atiyyeh Mubarak, 54 years old
71. Mohammed Bakr Al-Of, 24 years old, killed in an attack on Al-Yarmouk st. in Gaza city.
72. Samy Al Ghfeir, 22 years old, killed in an attack on Shijaiyya area, west Gaza.
73. Nabeel Ahmad Abu Amrra, age unconfirmed
73. Ahmed Abu Amra, age unconfirmed
75. Hussein Jalal Nasser, 8 years old
76. Jalal Nasr, 39 years old
77. Sabha Al-Hashash, 60 years old.
78. Saif Al-Deen Sadeq, age unconfirmed
79. Ahmad Hussein Al-Agha, age unconfirmed
80. Emad Abu Hamda, 30 years old, killed after being seriously injured in as a drone fired a rocket at Beach camp, west Gaza.
81. Mohammed Salama Jindiyya, 31 years old and mentally disabled, killed in an attack on Helles roundabout in Shijaiyya, west Gaza.
82. Saadiyeh Al Tayyub, age unconfirmed
83. Nawal Abdel Ali, age unconfirmed
84. Ahmad Najeeb, age unconfirmed
85. Nisma Abu Zour, 19 years old
86. Mohammed Iyad Abu Zour, 5 years old
87. Sahar Abu Zour, age unconfirmed
88. Ahed Al Qattati, 38 years old
89. Al Abd Mohammed Al Attar, age unconfirmed
90. Rami Al Shandi, 1 year old
91. Ibrahim Suleiman Al Astal, 46 years old
92. Omar Mahmoud Mohammed Al Astal, 14 years old
93. Abdullah Abu Khater, 21 years old
94. Mahmoud Saed Abu Khater, 34 years old
95. Rashid 'Alyan Abu 'Amra, 45 years old
96. Amin Zuhdi Bashir, 40 years old
97. Tamer Rushdi Bashir, 30 years old
98. Hussam Abdeljawad, age unconfirmed
99. Ramadan Ahmad Mahmoud, 20 years old, died of injuries after two days
100.Mohammed Riyad Shamallakh, 23 years old
102.Hassan Al Nahhal, age unconfirmed
103.Mohammed Sha'ath, age unconfirmed
104.A'ed Rady, 50 years old
105.Ameen Malahi, age unconfirmed
106.Ramez Harb, Commander of Al Quds Brigades, age unconfirmed
107.Saleem Sweilaam, age unconfirmed
108.Mohammed Ziyad Tbeil, age unconfirmed
109.Arkan Abu Kameil, age unconfirmed
110.Ibrahim Al-Hawajir, age uncofirmed
111.Khalil Shehada, age unconfirmed
112.Osama Shehada, ahe unconfirmed
113.Amina Hijazi, (mother of Hijazi family) age unconfirmed
114.Sohaib Fouad Hijazi, 2 years old
115.Mohammed Fouad Hijazi, 3 years old
116.Fouad Khalil Hijazi, (father of Hijazi family) age unconfirmed
117.Hamza Falah, 25 years old
118.Rushdi Tamimi, age unconfirmed
119.Ahmad Tawfeeq Al Nasasra, 17 years old
120.Mohammed Tawfeeq Al Nasasra, 15 years old
121.Akram Ma'aroof, 38 years old
123.Mohammed Daghmash, died of injuries, age unconfirmed
124.Mohammed Rezaq Al Zahra, age unconfirmed (30s)
125.Yahya Mohammed Awad, 15 years old
126.Bilal Al Barawi, 20 years old
127.Aberrahman Hamad Abu Hamza, 22 years old
128.Mohammed Bader, age unconfirmed
129.Ahmad Doghmoush, died of injuries, age unconfirmed
130.Sobhiu Doghmoush, age unconfirmed
131.Salah Doghmoush, age unconfirmed
132.Ameen Al-Dod, 22 years old
133.Ayman Rafiq Abu Rashid, age unconfirmed
135.Saber Bulbul, age unconfirmed
136.Tareq Hjeila, age unconfirmed
137.Zia Abu Al qaray, age unconfirmed
138.Mohammad As-Shour, 8 years old
139.Mahmoud Al-Koomi, age unconfirmed
140.Hussam Salama, age unconfirmed
141.Mohammed Musa Abu Aisha, age unconfirmed
142.Hassan Yousef Al-Oustaz, age unconfirmed
143.Salim Ayesh Abu Sitta, age unconfirmed
144.Khaled Abed Abu Mour, 19 years old
145.Ahmed Abed Abu Mour, 24 years old
146.Mosaab Doghmosh, 22 years old
147.Mohammed Abu Sitta, age unconfirmed
148.Yosra Al-Shawwa, age unconfirmed
149.Mahmoud Al-Shawwa, age unconfirmed
150.Ibrahim Ahmad Mahmoud Hamad, age unconfirmed
151.Mahmoud Khalil Al Arja, age unconfirmed
152.Shawqi Abu Sneimi, age uncomfirmd
153.Abdallah Asseela, age unconfirmed
154.Mustafa Awad Abu Hamidan, age unconfirmed
155.Ahmad Abuiyyan, age unconfirmed (known to be a child)
156.Fares Sbeita, 23 years old
157.Ameera Abu Nasser, 21 years old
158.Ibrahim Abu Nasser, 70 years old
159.Mohammed Adnan Al-Ashqar, 22 years old
160.Mahmou Abu Khusa, age unconfirmed (known to be a child)
161.Talal Ak-Asasly, 47 years old (father of Al Asasly family)
162.Ayman Talal Al Asasly, 17 years old
163.Hadil Talal Al Asasly, age unconfirmed
164.Abdul Rahman Na'eem, 6 years old
165.Riham Al-Nabaheen, 4 years old
166.Mubarak Ibrahim Abu Houly, age unconfirmed
167.Mohammed Mohammed Baker, 27 years old
168.Ibrahim Mheisin, age unconfirmed
169.Ramy Abeid, age unconfirmed
170.Mohammed Salama Abu Eteiwy, age unconfirmed
171.Nidal Hassan Abu Riyad, age unconfirmed
172.Sa'dy Abu Kmeil, age unconfirmed
173.Ahmad Abu Kmeil, age unconfirmed

 

[Giz]

By this logic, the United States went to war with Japan unprovoked.

Japanese planes bomb Pearl Harbour,
threaten peace between US and Japan
World community worries US will start war

Exactly - much clearer than how I put it!

 

[Morrigan]

Ok, what relevance does this picture have?

If there is one, don't expect JihadJane to clarify it for you. It's her standard MO to come in threads like these, spam with links, context-less images and lists without ever really discussing anything (except to call people she disagrees with "psychopathic child killers", maybe). See her latest post:

[spam edited]

Do you have a point? Something you wish to discuss? What's the purpose of doing this? You know your MO is ineffective in changing people's mind and contributing to the discussion, right?

By this logic, the United States went to war with Japan unprovoked.

Hah, yeah. I don't know if that headline was really biased or just a poor choice of word, though.

 

[JihadJane]

If there is one, don't expect JihadJane to clarify it for you. It's her standard MO to come in threads like these, spam with links, context-less images and lists without ever really discussing anything (except to call people she disagrees with "psychopathic child killers", maybe). See her latest post:

Thanks for the introduction!

I haven't called anyone in this thread a "psychopathic child killer".

Do you have a point?

Yes: Comparisons with Japan and Germany are not relevant because the Palestinians remain undefeated.

Apartheid South Africa might be a more fruitful comparison.

Something you wish to discuss? What's the purpose of doing this? You know your MO is ineffective in changing people's mind and contributing to the discussion, right?

I am not so arrogant as to think that I can change people's minds.

You need to look up a definition of spam, e.g. "Spam is the use of electronic messaging systems to send unsolicited bulk messages, especially advertising, indiscriminately."

Here's something for you to discuss: What has Israel's latest round of weapons testing/marketing achieved?

 

[WildCat]

A cease fire has been reached:
CNNhttp://www.cnn.com/2012/11/21/world/meast/gaza-israel-strike/index.html?hpt=hp_t1http://
My prediction:
We'll soon see more bizarre headlines such as "Rocket attacks threaten cease fire"

Of course, only Israel can actually break a cease-fire.

 

[WildCat]

Took barely 40 minutes for Palestinians to break the cease fire and fire more rockets.

Those were rockets of peace.

 

[Ziggurat]

Here's something for you to discuss: What has Israel's latest round of weapons testing/marketing achieved?

Quite a lot.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

So I thought it was bigoted when Virus and Ziggurat said Palestinians would never want peace because of, respectively, culture and religion.

And then someone else pointed out how settler activity is closely tied to Judaism.

True, but plenty of Jewish people oppose the settlements. I bet plenty of Palestinians aren't genocidal.

I was gonna be like 'f 'em all' but now I'm gonna be optimistic again.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Kiss goodbye to the ceasefire

http://m.theage.com.au/world/blast-on-israeli-bus-injures-at-least-10-20121121-29qm3.html

I noticed that you were the only one that actually posted about this, though without the usual condemnation that you reserve for Israel doing something horrible, like blowing up an ammo dump next to a house. Funny thing, I didn't see a single post from the pro-palestinian side condemning the deliberate bombing of a civilian Israeli bus. I guess that injuring and killing civilians is only bad when it is done by Israel.

 

[PhantomWolf]

So I thought it was bigoted when Virus and Ziggurat said Palestinians would never want peace because of, respectively, culture and religion.

And then someone else pointed out how settler activity is closely tied to Judaism.

True, but plenty of Jewish people oppose the settlements. I bet plenty of Palestinians aren't genocidal.

I was gonna be like 'f 'em all' but now I'm gonna be optimistic again.

A survey a in 2008 found that 76% of Israelis favoured a pull back and 2-State solution. But then Israel has favoured a 2-State solution since 1948, it's the Arab League and the Palestinians that want a 1-State solution, theirs and no other.

 

[tyr_13]

Not sure if serious...

On the chance that you are: A "truce" normally implies that folks have stopped shooting at each other. However, when the Palestinians resumed rocket attacks, instead of saying "Palestinians break truce" the headline instead implies that the truce will only be broken when Israel fires back (bad Israelis - breaking truces!!).

Umm... really? I thought it was blindingly obvious.

If you're firing off rockets, you aren't threatening the truce, you're breaking it.

Ohhh! I kept going through ways trying to figure out how it was biased against the Palestinians and I couldn't figure out how.

Yes, it is pretty obvious now.

 

[portlandatheist]

I noticed that you were the only one that actually posted about this, though without the usual condemnation that you reserve for Israel doing something horrible, like blowing up an ammo dump next to a house. Funny thing, I didn't see a single post from the pro-palestinian side condemning the deliberate bombing of a civilian Israeli bus. I guess that injuring and killing civilians is only bad when it is done by Israel.

The "pro-Palestinian" side also didn't comment on the Palestinian murdered and dragged through the streets on the back of a motorcycle either. There are definitely pro-Palestinians whose primary concern is the genuine welfare of the Palestinian people and then there are those that don't give a **** about them at at all but instead are consumed with their anti Israeli hatred and for them, Palestinians are only worthwhile as a propaganda device to further that intention.

 

[trustbutverify]

A survey a in 2008 found that 76% of Israelis favoured a pull back and 2-State solution. But then Israel has favoured a 2-State solution since 1948, it's the Arab League and the Palestinians that want a 1-State solution, theirs and no other.

Guess they and their UI's around the globe have resigned themselves to the fact that a military rout over the cowardly Zionists isn't going to be as easy as originally thought. Maybe they can 1-state Israel from the pages of time.

 

[Stout]

The "pro-Palestinian" side also didn't comment on the Palestinian murdered and dragged through the streets on the back of a motorcycle either. There are definitely pro-Palestinians whose primary concern is the genuine welfare of the Palestinian people and then there are those that don't give a **** about them at at all but instead are consumed with their anti Israeli hatred and for them, Palestinians are only worthwhile as a propaganda device to further that intention.

Pretty much however I'd go with anti western hatred rather than anti Israel hatred. It's all about colonialism really, indigenous rights over those of settlers, the invasion and colonization of the new world and the guilt that brings. Israel just happens to be "us", the west.

 

[John Mekki]

The Israel/Palestinian issue in summary:
1) pro-Israeli groups blame Hamas for launching rockets and for not recognizing the State of Israel but say nothing about the fact that Israel occupies Palestinian land and does not want a Palestinian State
2) pro-Palestinian groups blame Israel about the fact that Israel occupies Palestinian land and does not want a Palestinian State but say nothing about the fact that Hamas is launching rockets and not recognizing the State of Israel
In conclusion, every of the two groups points fingers at what the other is doing wrong and does not look at what they are doing wrong themselves.
A typical case of “us vs them” mentality
And round and round we go..

 

[PhantomWolf]

The Israel/Palestinian issue in summary:
1) pro-Israeli groups blame Hamas for launching rockets and for not recognizing the State of Israel but say nothing about the fact that Israel occupies Palestinian land and does not want a Palestinian State

Except this part is demonstratably untrue. Israel has been for a 2-State solution for, well since 1948. Their main conditions have been that they are a) recognised as a State by the Arab world, and b) left along in peace.

Having said that, there certain are reasons for criticing Irael's action, including the continuation of building on the West Bank and the treatment of Israeli Arabs, but the 2-State solution is not one of them.

2) pro-Palestinian groups blame Israel about the fact that Israel occupies Palestinian land and does not want a Palestinian State but say nothing about the fact that Hamas is launching rockets and not recognizing the State of Israel

What you also have to understand is that Israel occupying Palestinian land means "Israel existing," as Palestinians see all of Palestine as Palestinian land. As long as Israel exists, there are those that will claim they are occupiers, even if they pulled back to the 1948 UN borders it wouldn't be good enough for many on the Pro-Palestinian side. You can also see how this falls into the whole "recognise Israel as a State" side of things.

In conclusion, every of the two groups points fingers at what the other is doing wrong and does not look at what they are doing wrong themselves.
A typical case of “us vs them” mentality
And round and round we go..

I disagree that everyone does this.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Guess they and their UI's around the globe have resigned themselves to the fact that a military rout over the cowardly Zionists isn't going to be as easy as originally thought. Maybe they can 1-state Israel from the pages of time.

I think they (The Arab League) have known since 1948 that they weren't going to be able to use a military solution to Israel. This is the reason they refused to allow Palestinian refugees to intergrate into the countries they fled to, and subsequently have refused to accept and recognise those refugee's families born in their countries. It's also why they didn't create a Palestinian State between 1948 and 1967. By creating whole cities of "refugees" they could stir the anger and build the population, then by demanding "the right to return" flood Israel with a pro-Arab population that could take over and restore the land to the Arabs. Israel know this and hence the sticking point over the right to return. Israel will never allow the right of return to occur because they know that in doing so they will cease to exist as a nation, and the Arab world will never accept peace without it because they know it's the only way to destroy Israel.

 

[WildCat]

So I thought it was bigoted when Virus and Ziggurat said Palestinians would never want peace because of, respectively, culture and religion.

And then someone else pointed out how settler activity is closely tied to Judaism.

True, but plenty of Jewish people oppose the settlements. I bet plenty of Palestinians aren't genocidal.

I was gonna be like 'f 'em all' but now I'm gonna be optimistic again.

The ones supporting Hamas certainly are. They appear to make up the majority at the moment.

Man, were they ever happy about that bus bomb! Bomb civilians, joy joy joy! Lovely people.

 

[WildCat]

The "pro-Palestinian" side also didn't comment on the Palestinian murdered and dragged through the streets on the back of a motorcycle either.

I'm sure those guys really were Israeli collaborators too, and it wasn't just some Hamas thugs taking the opportunity to snuff out rivals/undesireables/whoever they don't like. We know this from the transparent, fair, western-style trial they received in the 15 minutes between being accused of the crime and when they were shot and dragged through the streets.

I can't imagine why Israelis wouldn't want a one-state solution! They really seem to have their [stuff] together in Gaza.