General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Doctor Evil]

So your evidence is
- two videos from the IDF, saying 'These explosions are so large, they were obviously weapons depots'
and
- a second video, in which the perspective makes it impossible to tell how far the rocket launcher was from a building, let alone what the nature of the building was.

And NB that I'm not saying that Hamas never launches rockets from urban areas... but if what you presented as evidence, then here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=626&pictureid=6958

See? Hamas only launches rockets from empty fields.

Before posting I did not know if you were unaware of possible evidence to the tactics of Hamas. Your reply convinced me that in fact you will do everything to ignore such evidence when presented to you.

Lets start from my videos. Your response was simply "These explosions are so large, they were obviously weapons depots". Did you even bother do watch them? In one you can clearly see a rocket which was misfired due to the attack on the storage site. It just sits on the ground with its engine burning. I do not need to trust the IDF to know that they were right in this case.

Which brings me back to my question. Did you watch the video? I see two options. 1. You did not watch the video because you do not really care about evidence which may force you to change your views. 2. You watched this video but decided that being dishonest about its interpretation would be a good argument tactic.

The last part of your reply is in my view consistent with your approach, namely to avoid forming a coherent picture of the tactics of both sides in this conflict. Hamas does occasionally fire from open areas, but a majority of its launches are from the urban part of Gaza. There have been many instances in which journalists in Gaza either saw , filmed, or heard rockets being fired from their vicinity. I can find quite a few of those for you. I would do so if you will tell me how many of those would convince you that this is part of a Hamas strategy. Another aspect of Hamas strategy is related to a question I raised in my previous post, namely, where do Hamas store the 10000 or so rockets they still have? I ignored that question. I will give you my guess for the answer. There are two possibilities: 1. Hamas mainly store them in military installations, and 2. Hamas hides them in civilian areas. If the answer was 1. those rockets would have been destroyed by now. Those rockets are hidden in civilian buildings. This is one of the ways in which Hamas actions mean that civilian areas become legitimate military targets.

 

[Doctor Evil]

By the way, the previous page have included a discussion on whether Hamas targets civilians in Israel. People have argued about that for quite a while, but no one thought on actually looking at what Hamas is saying regarding this. Here are a few tweets from the military wing of Hamas, all from the last day:

01:55 Al Qassam brigades shelling #Ashdod with 5 Grad missiles.

Ashdod is a city in Israel.

Al Qassam Brigades shelling Ofakim with 5 Grad missiles.

Similarly, a civilian target.

20:00 Al Qassam Brigades shelling Netifot with 10 Grad missiles.

I assume they mean Netivot. Again, a city in Israel. There are many more.

Of course Hamas will also shoot at military targets, but my point is that they see no problem with targeting civilians, and they have no problem admitting that. You could argue that they are lying. After all some of their tweets are clearly false:

#Israeli media"17 Israelis reported killed since 7 days of confrontation,including 9 #IDF soldiers & 8 settlers,where 653 reported injured

As far as I know five Israelis were killed so far, including one soldier and 4 civilians. (Hamas calls all Israeli civilians settlers, as a means to justify targeting them.)

 

[Eddie Dane]

Conclusion: I do not know who is worse, the pro-Hamas group or the pro-Israel group.
At the end, they both claim to fight for the “right” side, but there are both on the “wrong” side.

Hamas is wrong not to accept the existence of Israel.
Israel is wrong on stealing Palestinian land.

Two bads do not make one good.
It is as simple as that.

Two wrongs don't make a right.
Unfortunately, two rights don't make a right either.

PJ O'Rourke.

 

[bit_pattern]

For the folk wondering why the UN can't send in peacekeepers, take the following statement, maybe you can have a guess what is wrong about it:

"a ceasefire, expressing support for international mediation efforts and urging the Palestinians and Israelis to resume broader Middle East peace talks"

I mean, is there a glaring reason as to why this sentiment is so unreasonable it should be blocked outright out of hand?

 

[JihadJane]

Conclusion: I do not know who is worse, the pro-Hamas group or the pro-Israel group.
At the end, they both claim to fight for the “right” side, but there are both on the “wrong” side.

Hamas is wrong not to accept the existence of Israel.
Israel is wrong on stealing Palestinian land.

Two bads do not make one good.
It is as simple as that.

No, it's not as simple as that. Such an analysis pretends that the past doesn't exist.

Hamas, a useful enemy to Israel and the US, is just the latest manifestation of Palestinian resistance to Israel's Zionist genocide, which has been going on for decades. The two "sides" have never been equal.

 

[JihadJane]

I'm not sold on the whole "if you bomb a terrorist another two onlookers will become outraged and take his place" concept. Germany and Japan were "broken" in WW2 and they had a profound cultural shift and have played nice ever since.

(Compared to Germany after WW1, where there were conspiracy theories of jewish "stabs in the back" and that they hadn't really been defeated - so they came back for more).

Calling community members, friends and family "onlookers" is a disgusting, psychopathic distortion.

 

[The Don]

No, it's not as simple as that. Such an analysis pretends that the past doesn't exist.

Hamas, a useful enemy to Israel and the US, is just the latest manifestation of Palestinian resistance to Israel's Zionist genocide, which has been going on for decades. The two "sides" have never been equal.

IMO the bolded part is just unhelpful hyperbole. The Israeli state is well organised and efficient. If their objective was genocide (as opposed to making sure of security or executing a land-grab, however you want to portray it) then they would have made a much better job of it.

 

[JihadJane]

IMO the bolded part is just unhelpful hyperbole. The Israeli state is well organised and efficient. If their objective was genocide (as opposed to making sure of security or executing a land-grab, however you want to portray it) then they would have made a much better job of it.

Sorry, I should have said Zionist ethnic cleansing.

It's an ongoing project. However well organized and efficient it might be (its easy defeat by Hezbollah in the north suggests otherwise), Israel is still dependent on an international community for survival. It cannot now do what it did in the early days - use wholesale massacres to drive hundreds of thousands of Arabs out of their country.

 

[Virus]

Although the statements against Israel employed by some people like JihadJane are just hysterical, imbecilic rhetoric, they do reveal a sinister motive. They psychologically need a narrative that allows Palestinians the right to kill civilians. That's why they never question terrorist war crimes. They believe they've earned the right to commit them.

 

[The Don]

Although the statements against Israel employed by some people like JihadJane are just hysterical, imbecilic rhetoric, they do reveal a sinister motive. They psychologically need a narrative that allows Palestinians the right to kill civilians. That's why they never question terrorist war crimes. They believe they've earned the right to commit them.

True, and portraying all Palestinians as terrorists who want to wipe Israel and all Jews off the face of the Earth is equally de-humanising. That path leads to never questioning the motives or actions of Israel and the IDF.

 

[Virus]

True, and portraying all Palestinians as terrorists who want to wipe Israel and all Jews off the face of the Earth is equally de-humanising. That path leads to never questioning the motives or actions of Israel and the IDF.

I never used the word "all" but it would be naive to think there isn't a critical mass of Palestinians that buy into Hamas's goals of wiping out the Jewish state in its entirety and view terrorism as a noble goal. They've been raised on an educational system and mass-media that is right out of Nazi Germany.

 

[a_unique_person]

I never used the word "all" but it would be naive to think there isn't a critical mass of Palestinians that buy into Hamas's goals of wiping out the Jewish state in its entirety and view terrorism as a noble goal. They've been raised on an educational system and mass-media that is right out of Nazi Germany.

They've been raised under a military occupation.

 

[bit_pattern]

Couldn't have put it better myself!

Although the statements against Israel employed by some people like Virus are just hysterical, imbecilic rhetoric, they do reveal a sinister motive. They psychologically need a narrative that allows Israelis the right to kill civilians. That's why they never question war crimes. They believe they've earned the right to commit them.

Bravo!

 

[Captain.Sassy]

I mean that the democratic tradition, relative secularism and freedom of the press are Israeli values. They are NOT Palestinian values (as can be seen from a look at Gaza and the west bank)(heck, anywhere in the Arab world).

But they are Arab Israeli values, right? So if former Palestinians can be turned into Arab Israelis, then maybe current Palestinians can be turned into Arab Israelis too?

Are you saying that you expect a new non-Israeli majority to suddenly become culturally Israeli ? On what are you basing this expectation?

Maybe it would need to be gradual integration.

Do you really think that these two arguments are of similar likelihood:

a) Jews wont be killed when they become a minority and Hamas, Fatah etc take charge
b) "white people in the US probably won't be killed when they become the minority there"

Cause I gotta say, that's not even an honest/sensible enough question to try and form a response to.

Well, I did note that this was a hypothetical. I put it forward directly in response to the previous poster's comment about pogroms and genocide.

Have Hamas and Fatah indicated that if a one state solution were implemented with everyone becoming full and equal citizens of Israel, they would take the opportunity to use their democratic franchise and majority status to kill the Jewish citizens of Israel?

 

[bit_pattern]

Kiss goodbye to the ceasefire

http://m.theage.com.au/world/blast-on-israeli-bus-injures-at-least-10-20121121-29qm3.html

An explosion on a bus in Tel Aviv left at least 10 people injured, Israeli Army Radio reported.
The blast occurred near the military headquarters in the Israeli commercial hub. A witness who wasn't identified told Channel Two that it was a powerful explosion and many were hurt. Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said the cause of the blast wasn't immediately clear.

 

[Virus]

Couldn't have put it better myself!

Although the statements against Israel employed by some people like Virus are just hysterical, imbecilic rhetoric, they do reveal a sinister motive. They psychologically need a narrative that allows Israelis the right to kill civilians. That's why they never question war crimes. They believe they've earned the right to commit them.

Bravo!

Whatever dude. I'm not the one who gets played for a fool by pictures of dead babies that are fake as crap.

Can't even think up your own stuff to say and have to copy me.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

I can find quite a few of those for you. I would do so if you will tell me how many of those would convince you that this is part of a Hamas strategy.

I agree that Hamas and other Palestinian rocketeers do fire at Israel from urban areas. I disagree that this necessarily equates to deliberately using human shields.

Another aspect of Hamas strategy is related to a question I raised in my previous post, namely, where do Hamas store the 10000 or so rockets they still have? I ignored that question. I will give you my guess for the answer. There are two possibilities: 1. Hamas mainly store them in military installations, and 2. Hamas hides them in civilian areas. If the answer was 1. those rockets would have been destroyed by now. Those rockets are hidden in civilian buildings. This is one of the ways in which Hamas actions mean that civilian areas become legitimate military targets.

Wasn't one of the precipitating incidents of this latest increase in the violence the Israeli discovery of an explosives and ammunition cache in a tunnel in an uninhabited part of the Gaza strip? But that's neither here nor there.

Look, if you read my posts carefully you'll find I never say that ammunition depots aren't legitimate targets. I questioned whether the homes of Hamas officers' families are legitimate targets, and I questioned whether reporters working for Hamas' official media are legitimate targets, and I questioned whether fighting from an urban area or having Hamas-associated buildings in an urban area constituted deliberate use of human shields.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

I never used the word "all" but it would be naive to think there isn't a critical mass of Palestinians that buy into Hamas's goals of wiping out the Jewish state in its entirety and view terrorism as a noble goal. They've been raised on an educational system and mass-media that is right out of Nazi Germany.

People in Romania were taught to see The West as evil and raised on an educational system and mass-media that were right out of Soviet Russia. And yet, Romania is now a member of NATO and the EU.

How are Palestinians different?

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Man, am I psychic or what? I should apply for the $1 million.

Thanks for acknowledging that I'm not coming from that position!

 

[Doctor Evil]

Wasn't one of the precipitating incidents of this latest increase in the violence the Israeli discovery of an explosives and ammunition cache in a tunnel in an uninhabited part of the Gaza strip? But that's neither here nor there.

That was a tunnel directed at the fence on the Gaza Israel border. It was almost certainly part of a plan to attack Israeli soldiers patrolling the border, but some of the explosives were discovered by them. (My guess that the intention was to draw forces to that region and blow up the tunnel below them.)

Look, if you read my posts carefully you'll find I never say that ammunition depots aren't legitimate targets. I questioned whether the homes of Hamas officers' families are legitimate targets, and I questioned whether reporters working for Hamas' official media are legitimate targets, and I questioned whether fighting from an urban area or having Hamas-associated buildings in an urban area constituted deliberate use of human shields.

Fair enough. I will give you my opinion.

Homes of Hamas commanders are not a legitimate targets as long as they are not also used for military purposes. I will clarify. If a member of the Hamas military wing does not have a formal base, but gives directions to troops, and uses his house as a command center then his house is a legitimate target. We can discuss many similar scenarios. For instance, I wont see the house as a legitimate target if typically said Hamas commander direct his troops from a different place, and only occasionally uses his house. I would also say that in any case, I would not try to the house. I would try to hit the commander.

Reporters working for Hamas official media are not a legitimate target. I heard of one Hamas fighter which was killed in a car which was marked as a TV car. But according to the IDF he was involved in firing rockets, and not because he was a reporter.

Finally, setting a strategy of fighting from urban area is definitely using your own civilians as human shields. By doing that you essentially force your enemy to return fire which is directed towards your own civilians. This has a double effect of reducing the amount of fire power your enemy uses (assuming he wishes to avoid killing your civilians. I would not have tried this tactic against Russia.) and garnering domestic and international support when your civilians get hit. Hamas strategy is designed with both of those in mind. It is cynical and immoral.