Merged Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth - (Part 2)

[joobz]

Actually from memory I asked one of the alleged people which post deconverted you and I didn't get an answer.

For record's sake, here is one poster who said as such.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5524628#post5524628

This is strong evidence that DOC's thread has deconverted people away from christianity.

If things like the evidence in post 670 deconverts someone so be it, but I don't believe it.

What you believe or don't believe doesn't matter.
Evidence is evidence.

 

[zooterkin]

Actually from memory I asked one of the alleged people which post deconverted you and I didn't get an answer.

If things like the evidence in post 670 deconverts someone so be it, but I don't believe it.

The same memory that tells you you've posted evidence in this thread? And why must it be one specific post? More likely it would be the cumulative effect of your body of work.

 

[joobz]

How many predicted they would be raised, and how many were executed by orders of the most powerful man in the area and had a public execution. And how many had a soldier standing guard over their tomb. And how many had many of their friends dying and risking their lives after their death.

special pleading.

Your "evidence" for Jesus' resurrection is a supposed lack of a body.
If that evidence is good, than it should also be evidence of a resurrection for all those other missing body cases. In fact, your special pleading is tacit admission that you do not believe a missing body is evidence of a resurrection. After all, if it was evidence, you wouldn't need to add so many special qualifiers to exclude those other cases.

 

[DOC]

For record's sake, here is one poster who said as such.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5524628#post5524628

This is strong evidence that DOC's thread has deconverted people away from christianity.
.

If the thread is deconverting people why do some skeptics, especially you, want it to go away. You should be happy it's up if it is deconverting people.

 

[joobz]

If it deconverting people why do skeptics, especially you, want it to go away. You should be happy it's up if it is deconverting people.

I do not want to "deconvert" people. I am only interested in the exchange of truthful information. I only wanted the thread closed because you have yet to provide any evidence as the thread promised.

you have repeated failed logical fallacies and claimed these were "evidence". This is true. But logical fallacies are not evidence.

 

[carlitos]

I could be wrong, but I believe one of them was carlitos. However, I'm not going to risk my sanity by trawling through that thread to verify it

Confirmed. That thread tipped me over the edge. And yes, it's true that DOC demanded to know which "one post" of his that was responsible. You could probably just look through my first several posts to see it, but I cant be bothered.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Actually from memory I asked one of the alleged people which post deconverted you and I didn't get an answer.

That is because not a single one of your posts DOC did it. It's all of them combined. It's because of the fact that you and all other apologetics throughout history have failed to produce anything even remotely close to evidence.

Not to mention dodging and avoiding answering simple basic questions raises so many red flags it's not even funny. The truth shouldn't be afraid of itself DOC.

And when your silly attempt lasts for so many years and still continues to spew the same debunked idiocies, people begin to realize the reason you don't present anything is because there is nothing to present.

But of course, as I said, your posts speak for themselves.

If things like the evidence in post 670 deconverts someone so be it, but I don't believe it.

I'm sorry. Can we reinstate the earlier reward you got for stupidest post ever to this one?

The only actual evidence presented in the thread is something you don't believe in?

If the thread is deconverting people why do some skeptics, especially you, want it to go away. You should be happy it's up if it is deconverting people.

Well, because it's not really fun anymore if you don't come up with new material. Most tv shows get stale after a couple of seasons.

I think it's time for another spin off.

 

[Mojo]

And how many had many of their friends dying and risking their lives after their death.

Franklin, for one. Arctic exploration was pretty hazardous.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

How many of the listed people predicted they would be raised

You need to first prove that your individual predicted that.
And you cannot use the bible to do so

and how many were executed by orders of the most powerful man in the area and had a public execution.

Umm... Doesn't Spartacus qualify? Either way, first you provide evidence that your example was executed. Heck, provide evidence he even existed.
And you cannot use the bible to do so

And how many had a soldier standing guard over their tomb.

Provide evidence there was a guard, heck provide evidence there was a tomb.
And you cannot use the bible to do so

And how many had many of their friends dying and risking their lives after their death.

Would the list of friends include Simon the Zealot?
How did he die again?

 

[DOC]

Even the Jews wrote hundreds of years later they believed the body was stolen. What does this tell us. It tells us the Jews believed Jesus existed and they believed the tomb was empty...

Do you see the problems with the bits I've put in bold?...

Matthew 28: 11-15

"While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day."

Actually we have evidence that many Jews (that weren't converted to Christianity) circulated the story that the body had been stolen as soon as about 35 years after the crucifixion. Notice the bold above. Why would Matthew risk putting that in there when it could easily be questioned or denied by those of his day.

 

[joobz]

Matther 28: 11-15

While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.

Actually we have evidence that many Jews (that weren't converted to Christianity) circulated the story that the body had been stolen as soon as about 35 years after the crucifixion. Notice the bold above. Why would Matthew risk putting that in there when it could easily be questioned or denied by those of his day.

that's not evidence. That's just a story claiming something....without evidence.

ETA: DOC, when do you believe Mark was written and how does this gel with the supposed "hundreds of years" claim that Mojo was commenting on?
You have a pickle of a problem here.

 

[Lucian]

Actually from memory I asked one of the alleged people which post deconverted you and I didn't get an answer.

If things like the evidence in post 670 deconverts someone so be it, but I don't believe it.

"Alleged people"? Are you suggesting Carlitos may be non-human?

 

[welshdean]

How many of the listed people predicted they would be raised, and how many were executed by orders of the most powerful man in the area and had a public execution. And how many had a soldier standing guard over their tomb. And how many had many of their friends dying and risking their lives after their death.

All of them and I've got better evidence for each and everyone of them compared to yours.

Confirmed. That thread tipped me over the edge. And yes, it's true that DOC demanded to know which "one post" of his that was responsible. You could probably just look through my first several posts to see it, but I cant be bothered.

No need to go looking, DOC knows.

Actually from memory I asked one of the alleged people which post deconverted you and I didn't get an answer.

If things like the evidence in post 670 deconverts someone so be it, but I don't believe it.

"Alleged people"? Are you suggesting Carlitos may be non-human?

Oh yes, especially now that he's a heathen, immoral, raping 2M babies, bastard, atheist.

 

[welshdean]

Sigh. Again with this? We haven't found the body of Jimmy Hoffa, another famous historical figure who has been dead for going on forty years. Does that prove he's been resurrected?

Ahem:

I know how it looks, but I was in the midst of replying when you and others stole the march. I did think of it first though. [ uhhh time-zones anyone ]

Wow, that's a lot of resurrected bodiless missing people! I stand in awe.

I loves a missing body me, just loves 'em I do.

And, if I might be permitted to add, what about Judge Crater?

Permission? For royalty? Oh My Queen, don't flatter me.
But NO, you can't. I stopped my list at the [very] early 20th century, specifically so DOC couldn't dispute their 'deathness' or 'missing body-ness'.


And I've got better evidence than he has.

 

[Akhenaten]

Did that really happen, and if so, got links? I don't actively keep up with Doc threads, but that sounds like it would be worth checking out.

Actually from memory I asked one of the alleged people which post deconverted you and I didn't get an answer.

Funny thing, DOC, but my memory tells a different story.

As luck would have it though, we need not rely on so poor a slave servant as memory.

Well I asked the first person who made that claim to give the exact post that allegedly made him deconvert. I don't believe he ever did. so I'm asking both (I don't remember who the second one is) right now what are the top 2 or 3 posts that allegedly made you deconvert. Let's take a look at those posts because you might have misunderstood something I stated if you are really sincere in what you say.

I think it was "body of work" rather than any specific post.

Yea, but there must be some main reasons. I just asking what are the 2 or 3 main reasons why supposedly what I said made someone deconvert. If they can't answer that question it makes the claim suspect.

Failing to provide any evidence would be the main one.

Yea, but there must be some main reasons. I just asking what are the 2 or 3 main reasons why supposedly what I said made someone deconvert. If they can't answer that question it makes the claim suspect.

1. You are completely unable to provide a skerrick of evidence that the New Testament writers told the truth.
   
   
2. You present information from sources that are suspect at best and outright lies at worse and persist in doing so no matter how many times it's pointed out to you, thus making you every bit as dishonest as your sources, if not more so.
   
   
3. You are incapable of posting anything that doesn't contain a logical fallacy. This, of course, reflects very poorly on the veracity of your professed beliefs. Again, your refusal to acknowledge these fallacies and your choice to continue committing them again and again is nothing less than morally bankrupt.

Are you sure 2 or 3 is enough? I have hundreds more.

Well of course I cannot speak for those who were driven to doubt by DOC's posting. But for me it is unlikely to be the lack of evidence presented: faith is not in that arena so far as I can see.

I was not a believer in the first place: but I have a lot of time for some of those who are religious and I have learned much from some. If it is true that anyone has been turned off religion by DOC I would venture to suggest it would be due to the same things which cause me not to respect what I have seen here: the main thing which appals me is the complete lack of respect for his own (and everybody else's) intelligence. It is a sad sight to watch someone who is unable to admit error and who will say anything at all in defense of his position no matter how twisted and illogical: no matter how dishonest.

This is not due to DOC being a christian: it is due to something else. I don't know what that something else is but I see the same phenomenon on other topics. I do not see it very often (though more on the net than in RL). Whatever it is due to one consequence of it is that it appears to remove all self respect from the person who has this mindset: and all sense of shame.

Well I asked the first person who made that claim to give the exact post that allegedly made him deconvert. I don't believe he ever did. So I'm asking both (I don't remember who the second one is) right now what are the top 2 or 3 posts that allegedly made you deconvert. Let's take a look at those posts because you might have misunderstood something I stated if you are really sincere in what you say.

hilighting mine


As I recall, you got schooled pretty badly when you asked that last time...
As zooterkin pointed out, it was a body-of-work thing.

Yea, but there must be some main reasons. I'm just asking what are the 2 or 3 main reasons why supposedly what I said made someone deconvert. If they can't answer that question it makes the claim suspect.

hilighting mine


And now you are lying. You quite clearly asked for posts, not reasons.

As far as reasons go, I think Akhenaten has nailed it.

It's a mixture of:
- your inability to provide evidence (coupled with your fractal misunderstanding of the concept),
- the flagrant dishonesty you continuously fall back on to attempt to support your claims whenever they have been proved wrong and
- all the actual knowledge, research and history brought forward by those in this thread who actually know something about the history of your religion (I'm frankly amazed that you, who professes to be such a good Christian and keeps proselytizing, know so damn little about your own religion).


Where's c.j.23?
He's the only Christian in this thread who has provided any real evidence for the claims in the OP, and been able to support his arguments with logic and evidence.
You certainly have not managed that, DOC. Not on the first page, not on this page, not on any of the pages in-between. Despite what you may fondly wish to believe, you've done your cause no good at all. I suppose it comes from blindly following the morons of apologetics, and not having enough actual understanding of your religion to even know that the likes of Muncaster, Geisler, Turek, and every other apologist whose arguments you've used are idiots of the truest breeding.



Go back and read c.j.'s posts. See if you can understand why he has earned respect and you only derision. Maybe then you'll understand why people have left the fold after reading this thread.

Maybe then you'll understand what Fiona, Akhentaten, Mojo, Zooterkin, Lothian and myself are saying. Heck, maybe you'll even learn something. But first you'd have to let go of your cherished, but wrong, beliefs.

Yea, but there must be some main reasons. I just asking what are the 2 or 3 main reasons why supposedly what I said made someone deconvert. If they can't answer that question it makes the claim suspect.

Here is carlitos' post where he talks about this:

No, it's OK. I'm trying to figure it out as we speak. My wife and I are not Catholic, but we help with a local Catholic food pantry, and we laugh when they say "oh, you are Lutheran - that's like Catholic light." Ha ha. This place does great work, and the nun who runs it should be a saint. But I don't feel super Lutheran-y lately. Let alone Catholic, which they would love us to convert to.

I have started a dialogue with my wife about this lack of faith thing, but it hasn't resolved itself yet. We both are a little lapsed in our churchgoing, but we used to be faithful.

The "E" in JREF for me is having watched 9/11 conspiracists, UFO proponents, bigfoot fans and Christians all using the same flawed thought processes to defend their claims. I am about to read a Christopher Hitchens book, for God's sake.

My bolding.

If I am reading it correctly, it isn't so much your specific posts or claims, but the (lack of) reasoning behind them.

Well of course I cannot speak for those who were driven to doubt by DOC's posting. But for me it is unlikely to be the lack of evidence presented: faith is not in that arena so far as I can see.

I was not a believer in the first place: but I have a lot of time for some of those who are religious and I have learned much from some. If it is true that anyone has been turned off religion by DOC I would venture to suggest it would be due to the same things which cause me not to respect what I have seen here: the main thing which appals me is the complete lack of respect for his own (and everybody else's) intelligence. It is a sad sight to watch someone who is unable to admit error and who will say anything at all in defense of his position no matter how twisted and illogical: no matter how dishonest.

This is not due to DOC being a christian: it is due to something else. I don't know what that something else is but I see the same phenomenon on other topics. I do not see it very often (though more on the net than in RL). Whatever it is due to one consequence of it is that it appears to remove all self respect from the person who has this mindset: and all sense of shame

Thank you Fiona - it encapsulates what I've come to "believe" about DOC.

In fact, I'm beginning to feel sorry for him/her.

I don't know if I'm one of those listed by DOC, but I'll volunteer my recent story.

When I was much, much younger, I was confirmed into the Presbyterian Church - I really, really bought into it back then. However, for a number of reasons it started to feel a bit irrelevant, so I drifted away. A few years ago, my monther - the "real" Christian in the family - died after eight years of Alzheimer's. I seemed to me that this was a very poor reward to her - if God really existed.

At this point, I felt that perhaps I needed to review my situation, and give Christianity another chance.

So I'd been checking out Christian websites to see if I'd made a mistake in my drift away, these sites ranging from the fawning ("I think Jesus is wonderful!" "So do I, but more than you!") - to the downright scary ("The only good Atheist is a dead Atheist"), but noticed that asking the wrong sort of questions was a good way to get banned. So, if anything, these websites weren't helping me return to the fold.

I found the JREF, ironically enough, thanks to Apollo deniers pointing me at the excellent Bad Astronomer's site where I found here.

Imagine my surprise and pleasure at finding a large thread discussing the correctness of the gospels. So, since then, I've read through the whole thing, taking breaks to stop my brains leaking out of me ears.

I've learnt a lot here, but sadly nothing from DOC. I like to think that the small contribution I've made to this thread has been more valuable than all of DOC's 135 million posts.

I don't think I've ever met anybody like DOC. How somebody can ignore advice - excellent advice - and keep to so many discredited beliefs, is beyond me.

For pretty much everybody here, evidence isn't guesswork, wishful thinking, appeals to various false authorities, etc, etc. We're looking for corroboration, that's apparently impossible for DOC to provide.

Also, many of us are looking for information - and/or an interesting and challenging discussion.

Alas, alas.....

I guess I have to admire his/her persistence -to keep returning to the same old, same old requires a huge amount of tenacity. Actually, I don't admire this - as mentioned above, I feel sorry for anybody who feels the neccessity to do this.

So - I came to this thread with high anticipation. This evaporated fairly quickly, but I've been trying to keep an open mind since.

However, I "believe" that I'm heading at an increasing rate in an Atheistic direction - and it's mainly thanks to you, DOC!

Perhaps I ought to say, "God bless you DOC!"


And ask "Whatever do you think you're achieving here"?

There you are Doc,far from finding converts,you are turning away potential believers. Keep up the good work.

Ring any bells, DOC?

If things like the evidence in post 670 deconverts someone so be it, but I don't believe it.

There is not now, has never been and never will be anything as utterly irrelevant as what you believe.

 

[Akhenaten]

DOC, how many, if any of these people were resurrected. All of them are dead and no body has ever been found...

How many of the listed people predicted they would be raised, and how many were executed by orders of the most powerful man in the area and had a public execution. And how many had a soldier standing guard over their tomb. And how many had many of their friends dying and risking their lives after their death.

Although special begging would be closer to the mark, given the pathetic nature of this attempted defence of such a vacuous argument.

 

[Akhenaten]

Even the Jews wrote hundreds of years later they believed the body was stolen. What does this tell us. It tells us the Jews believed Jesus existed and they believed the tomb was empty...

Matthew 28: 11-15

"While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day."

It almost looks as though you're making the point that the book of Matty was based on hearsay written down hundreds of years after the event.

In fact, it looks exactly like that.

How embarrassment.

Actually we have evidence that many Jews (that weren't converted to Christianity) circulated the story that the body had been stolen as soon as about 35 years after the crucifixion.

We do? Where?

Notice the bold above. Why would Matthew risk putting that in there when it could easily be questioned or denied by those of his day.

If 'his day' was actually hundreds of years after the event, as you've claimed, it wouldn't be much of a problem, now would it?

 

[zooterkin]

Would the list of friends include Simon the Zealot?
How did he die? Again, and again, and again...

FTFY.



abc

 

[Rincewind]

I was about to chip in with my story again - but clearly that's not necessary now!

Thanks!

 

[Mojo]

Even the Jews wrote hundreds of years later they believe the body was stolen.

Matthew 28: 11-15

"While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day."

Actually we have evidence that many Jews (that weren't converted to Christianity) circulated the story that the body had been stolen as soon as about 35 years after the crucifixion. Notice the bold above. Why would Matthew risk putting that in there when it could easily be questioned or denied by those of his day.