Merged Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth - (Part 2)

[Aepervius]

Did that really happen, and if so, got links? I don't actively keep up with Doc threads, but that sounds like it would be worth checking out.

I know of one which confirmed later again the the thread. Although I think there were pre-existing doubt probably, and seeing DOCs shenanigan probably gave the last hit.

I did not knew about the other but would not be surprised.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

The most obvious evidence is a body that has been missing for 2000 years belonging to a famous historical person that most biblical scholars believe was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of Pontius Pilate.

Yes... The fact that we don't have bodies of unicorns proves that unicorns are imortal because there are no dead unicorns. Is that about it?

Even the Jews wrote hundreds of years later they believe the body was stolen.

Hey DOC, I asked you this several times in the past already but you continue to weasel out and avoid the question... How about giving it another go or of course continue to avoid the question and let more observers see how you dodge issues without responding and help make more atheists

The question was:
So why again are there still jews at all?
Why are all the people from around that time still consider you to worship a false messiah? Even after christians took over rome (no persecution excuses) you still have jews. Even when they were forced to convert or die throughout history, there are still jews who chose to die instead of worshiping your false messiah.

What does this tell us.

Excellent question indeed DOC. Well it were if you had bothered to put a ? in the end.

 

[welshdean]

Since DOC has merely returned with more drivel that has been trashed several times already, I feel it is more important to note the departure, temporarily, I hope, of Lothian. He will be missed.

Isn't this post off-topic?

 

[Agatha]

The most obvious evidence is a body that has been missing for 2000 years belonging to a famous historical person that most biblical scholars believe was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of Pontius Pilate.

From Wiki on the historical Jesus

The majority of biblical scholars who study Early Christianity believe that the Gospels do contain some reliable information about Jesus,[7][8][9] agreeing that Jesus was a Jew who was regarded as a teacher and healer, that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire.[10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

When you claim someone was resurrected, the fact that the body is missing is some evidence, it is not proof, but it is some evidence. Even the Jews wrote hundreds of years later they believe the body was stolen. What does this tell us. It tells us the Jews believed Jesus existed and they believe the tomb was empty. But the Jews have not presented any evidence the body was stolen.

Evidence (not proof) for the Resurrection of this historical person named Jesus (that the majority of biblical scholars believed existed and was crucified on the orders of Pontius Pilate) has been given:

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

The very first post of Part 1 of this thread gave some evidence that the NT writers told the truth. That post could have been written better by myself. It would probably be better to read Chapter 11 of the book cited in post #1 as it is much more complete. Here it is:

http://books.google.com/books?id=PC...6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Geisler 10 reasons&f=false

The following 2 posts give more evidence

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5959646#post5959646

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6366925#post6366925

Bottom line is there is much evidence the NT writers told the truth. It is not absolute proof but it is clearly evidence.

Oh, DOC. I asked for evidence and you give me claims.

A missing body (of a person about whom there is disagreement whether he actually existed) is not evidence that a supernatural event occurred. It doesn't even rise to the level of a claim of a supernatural event and certainly does not tend to support the contention that Jesus ever even existed. William of Ockham is spinning in his grave at your level of argument.

Once again you link to a resource which is not available outside the USA, and just to remind you that means over 95% of the population of the world are unable to access it.

I went back to the original thread and took a look at your very first post. It contains some spurious reasons why you think the NT writers wrote the truth, but no evidence that they did.

 

[Elizabeth I]

The most obvious evidence is a body that has been missing for 2000 years belonging to a famous historical person that most biblical scholars believe was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of Pontius Pilate.

Sigh. Again with this? We haven't found the body of Jimmy Hoffa, another famous historical figure who has been dead for going on forty years. Does that prove he's been resurrected?

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Sigh. Again with this? We haven't found the body of Jimmy Hoffa, another famous historical figure who has been dead for going on forty years. Does that prove he's been resurrected Is that evidence for his resurection?

Fix that for you before the unholy weasle grabs himself another excuse.

 

[amb]

Never mind the body. Where the heck was the tomb?

 

[Akhenaten]

What duck?​

Come back soon, my friend.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Never mind the body. Where the heck was the tomb?

This one
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6539823#post6539823

 

[Elizabeth I]

Fix that for you before the unholy weasle grabs himself another excuse.

Thanks! **whew** That was a close one!

 

[amb]

This one
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6539823#post6539823

Sure it is. And I'm father xmas.

 

[joobz]

The most obvious evidence is a body that has been missing for 2000 years belonging to a famous historical person that most biblical scholars believe was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of Pontius Pilate.

There's no body from when Bilbo baggins left middle earth either.

When you claim someone was resurrected, the fact that the body is missing is some evidence, it is not proof, but it is some evidence.

Lack of evidence (no body) is not evidence.

The very first post of Part 1 of this thread gave some evidence that the NT writers told the truth.

No. it's, at best, evidence that the believed it was the truth. Not that it was true.

Bottom line is there is much evidence the NT writers told the truth. It is not absolute proof but it is clearly evidence.

Nope.
See above.

DOC, bad evidence (which is what you provided) is not evidence.

ETA:

Even the Jews wrote hundreds of years later they believe the body was stolen. W

We have evidence that grave robbery exists and is real. It's a hypothesis that at least fits with our understanding of reality.

Resurrections are another story. The fact that medical science has never seen a Resurrection makes it an extremely unlikely hypothesis. Based on our current understanding, a Resurrection is as unlikely as Aliens coming down and taking Jesus back to Mars.

 

[welshdean]

Re: Some Evidence the New Testament writers told the truth.

The most obvious evidence is a body that has been missing ... belonging to a famous historical person

Jimmy Hoffa anyone?

The majority of biblical scholars who study Early Christianity believe that the Gospels do contain some reliable information about Jesus,[7][8][9]

The majority of biblical scholars have a vested interest in preserving the myth. Their livelihoods depend on it.

...agreeing that Jesus was a Jew who was regarded as a teacher and healer, that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire.[10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20]

The truth is not now, never has been and never will be a democracy. The fact that biblical apologists agree with each other to support their own blind faith is evidence. Evidence that they agree with each other to support their own delusions, not evidence that the NT authors told the truth.
Incidentally DOC, can you point us to a Roman record of the charges of sedition and/or the trial and execution of an itinerant preacher called Jesus?

When you claim someone was resurrected, the fact that the body is missing is some evidence, it is not proof, but it is some evidence. Even the Jews wrote hundreds of years later they believe the body was stolen. What does this tell us. It tells us the Jews believed Jesus existed and they believe the tomb was empty. But the Jews have not presented any evidence the body was stolen.

Again, Jimmy Hoffa fits this criteria. No body, no grave/tomb, was he resurrected? The Jews haven't provided any evidence that the body was resurrected either DOC.
Can you not see how worthless the evidence you present is?

The very first post of Part 1 of this thread gave some evidence that the NT writers told the truth. That post could have been written better by myself.

In all fairness that post could have been written better by my 9yr old.

Bottom line is there is much evidence the NT writers told the truth. It is not absolute proof but it is clearly evidence.

Bottom line is DOC, that there is zero, none, not a jot of evidence for the veracity of the NT. None at all. What you present is piffle and apologetics. No evidence, simply nonsense.

Oh and DOC, please feel free to ignore this post, you seem to ignore every other post that 'calls' you out on your 'evidence'.


Unless of course I'm still 'blocked' from your threads?

 

[Resume]

The most obvious evidence is a body that has been missing for 2000 years belonging to a famous historical person that most biblical scholars believe was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of Pontius Pilate.

Amelia Earhart. Disappeared, but nobody's found a body. Ascended into the heavens too. Though not the way your hippie is alleged.

 

[welshdean]

DOC, how many, if any of these people were resurrected. All of them are dead and no body has ever been found.
This part is important DOC: Please state what evidence you hold for a positive or negative resurrection hypotheses.


Before 1800

• 71 BC – Although he was presumed killed in battle, the body of the rebel slave Spartacus was never found and his fate remains unknown.[1]
• 53 BC – Ambiorix was, together with Catuvolcus, prince of the Eburones, leader of a Belgic tribe of north-eastern Gaul (Gallia Belgica), where modern Belgium is located. According to the writer Florus (iii.10.8), Ambiorix and his men managed to cross the Rhine and disappear without a trace.
• 117 AD – Legio IX Hispana, (Ninth Spanish Legion), was a legion alleged to have disappeared in Britain during the Roman conquest of Britain. Many references to the legion have been made in subsequent works of fiction.[2]
• 834 (circa) – Muhammad ibn Qasim (al-Alawi) led a rebellion against the Abbasid Caliphate but was defeated and detained. He was able to flee but was never heard from again.
• 1021 – Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah (36), sixth Fatimid caliph and 16th Ismaili imam, rode his donkey to the Muqattam hills outside Cairo for one of his regular nocturnal meditation outings and failed to return. A search found only the donkey and his bloodstained garments.[3]
• 1203 – Arthur I, Duke of Brittany, designated heir of the throne of England. He was supported by French nobility who did not want John of England as overlord. On 31 July 1202, Arthur was surprised and captured by John's barons and imprisoned at Falaise in Normandy. The following year Arthur was transferred to Rouen, and then vanished mysteriously in April 1203.
• 1291 (circa) – Vandino and Ugolino Vivaldi, Genoese sailors and explorers lost while attempting the first oceanic journey from Europe to Asia.[4]
• 1412 – Owain Glyndŵr, the last native Welsh person to hold the title Prince of Wales, instigated the Welsh Revolt against the rule of Henry IV of England in 1400. Although initially successful, the uprising was eventually put down, but Glyndŵr disappeared and was never captured, betrayed, or tempted by royal pardons.[5]
• 1483 – Edward V of England (12) and Richard of Shrewsbury, 1st Duke of York (9), sons of King Edward IV of England, were placed in the Tower of London (which at that time served as a fortress and a royal palace, as well as a prison) by their uncle Richard III of England.[6] Neither was ever seen in public again and their fate remains unknown.
• 1499 – John Cabot, Italian explorer, disappeared along with his five ships during an expedition to find a western route from Europe to Asia.[7]
• 1501 – Gaspar Corte-Real, Portuguese explorer, disappeared on an expedition to discover the Northwest Passage from Europe to Asia. Two of his ships returned to Lisbon, but the third, with Gaspar on board, was lost and never heard from again.[8]
• 1502 – Miguel Corte-Real, Portuguese explorer, disappeared while searching for his brother Gaspar. Like his brother, he took three ships, and as with his brother, the ship with Miguel on board was lost and never heard from again.[9]
• 1526 – Francisco de Hoces, Spanish sailor, was commander of the San Lesmes, one of the seven ships of the Loaísa Expedition under García Jofre de Loaísa. It has been speculated that San Lesmes, last seen in the Pacific in late May, may have reached Easter Island or any of the Polynesian archipelagos, or even New Zealand.[citation needed]
• 1546 – Francisco de Orellana, Spanish explorer and conquistador disappeared while exploring the Amazon in November. His fate remains a mystery.
• 1590 – The Roanoke colonists disappeared, becoming known as The Lost Colony, in 18 August 1590, when their settlement was found abandoned.[10]
• 1611 – Henry Hudson was an English explorer and seafarer. He discovered New York Harbor for the Dutch East India Company. In 1611, mutineers set him, his son and six others adrift in a small boat in what is now Hudson Bay. They were never seen again.
• 1779 – Thomas Lynch, Jr. (30), signatory of the United States Declaration of Independence, boarded a ship bound for the West Indies with his wife and was never seen again.
• 1788 – Aimée du Buc de Rivéry, daughter of a wealthy plantation owner on the French island of Martinique. After being sent to a convent school in France, she was returning home in July or August 1788 when the ship she was on vanished at sea. It is thought that the ship was attacked and taken by Barbary pirates. It has been suggested that she was enslaved and eventually sent to Istanbul as a gift to the Ottoman sultan by the Bey of Algiers. It is unconfirmed if she was the same person as Nakshedil Sultan, consort of the sultan.

1800 to 1899

• 1803 – George Bass (32), British explorer of Australia, set sail from Sydney for South America and was never heard from again.[11]
• 1809 – Benjamin Bathurst (25), British diplomat, disappeared from an inn in Perleberg.
• 1812 – Theodosia Burr Alston (29), daughter of U.S. Vice President Aaron Burr and sometimes called the most educated American woman of her day, sailed from Georgetown, South Carolina, aboard the Patriot, which was never seen again.
• 1826 – William Morgan (52), resident of Batavia, New York, disappeared just before his book critical of Freemasonry was published.
• 1829 – John Lansing, Jr. (75), American politician, left his Manhattan hotel to mail a letter at a New York City dock and was never seen again.
• 1848 – Khachatur Abovian (38), Armenian writer and national public figure of the early 19th century, credited as creator of modern Armenian literature, left his house early one morning and was never heard from again.
• 1848– Ludwig Leichhardt (34), Prussian explorer and naturalist, disappeared during his third major expedition to explore parts of northern and central Australia. He was last seen on 3 April at McPherson's Station on the Darling Downs, en route from the Condamine River to the Swan River. His fate after moving inland, although investigated by many, remains a mystery.
• 1872 – Captain Benjamin Briggs (37), his wife Sarah Elizabeth (31), daughter Sophia Matilda (2), and all seven crew members were missing when the Mary Celeste was found adrift in choppy seas some 400 miles (640 km) east of the Azores. Their unexplained disappearances are the core of "one of the most durable mysteries in nautical history"[12]
• 1880 – Lamont Young, a government geologist inspecting new goldfields on behalf of the New South Wales Mines Department, together with his assistant, Max Schneider, and boat owner Thomas Towers and two other men all disappeared near Bermagui, New South Wales, Australia.[13] The location where the abandoned wreck of their boat was discovered was subsequently named Mystery Bay.[14]
• 1888 – Boston Corbett (56), the Union Army soldier that fatally shot John Wilkes Booth, later went insane and was incarcerated in a mental asylum in 1887. He escaped from the facility a year later and was never seen again, though some historians suspect that he may have perished in the Great Hinckley Fire of September 1, 1894.[15][16]
• 1890 – Louis Le Prince (48), motion picture pioneer, disappeared after boarding a Paris-bound train at Dijon, France.
• 1896 – Albert Jennings Fountain (57) and his son Henry (8) disappeared near Las Cruces, New Mexico, United States.

1900s

• 1900 – Three lighthouse keepers working on the Flannan Isles (off the northwestern coast of Scotland) disappeared in a mystery commemorated in the ballad Flannan Isle and the opera The Lighthouse.
• 1909 – Joshua Slocum (65), Canadian-American sailor and first man to sail single-handedly around the world (1895–1898), disappeared after setting sail from Vineyard Haven on Martha's Vineyard alone, bound for South America, aboard the same 36 ft 9 in (11.20 m) sloop Spray he had used for his circumnavigation.[17]

1910s

• 1910 – Dorothy Arnold (25), Manhattan socialite and perfume heiress, vanished after buying a book in New York City. She intended to walk through Central Park but was never seen again.[18]
• 1912 – Bobby Dunbar (4), disappeared during a fishing trip in St. Landry Parish, Louisiana. A child found in the custody of William Cantwell Walters of Mississippi some eight months later was ruled to be Bobby Dunbar by a court-appointed arbiter, and Walters was found guilty of kidnapping. The child grew up as Bobby Dunbar, had four children of his own, and died in 1966. In 2004, DNA tests proved that the child found was not related to Bobby Dunbar's brother, Alonzo.[19]

• 1912 – Marten Nordgren Davidsen (34), arrived in Boston, Massachusetts, June 14, 1912 from Norway. His wife, Petra soon followed, but never located him. Records confirm he was booked to Boston after arrival, but there is no record of him since. He had planned to stay with famous violin maker, Peter Baltzerson.[citation needed]

• 1913 – Rudolf Diesel (55), German inventor and mechanical engineer, was lost overboard from the steamer Dresden. The mainstream consensus, based on the work of his biographers,[20][21] is that he committed suicide, but homicide theories abound, and no one can know for sure.
• 1914 – Ambrose Bierce (71), American writer known for "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" and The Devil's Dictionary, was last heard from in a letter of December 1913 bearing a Chihuahua postmark to his secretary and companion, Carrie Christiansen. Although alternative theories are plentiful,[22] he almost certainly perished in war-torn Mexico, possibly at the Battle of Ojinaga on 10 February,[23] or perhaps was executed as a spy in the municipal cemetery of Sierra Mojada, Coahuila, where a gravestone bearing his name was erected in 2004.[24]
• 1914 – F. Lewis Clark (52), businessman from the U.S. state of Idaho, disappeared while visiting Santa Barbara, California.
• 1914 – František Gellner (33), Czech poet, was recruited to the Austro-Hungarian Army at the beginning of World War I and went to Galicia, where he disappeared.[25][26]
• 1914 – Alejandro Bello Silva (27), a lieutenant in the Chilean Army, disappeared during a qualifying exam flight over central Chile. Although search efforts commenced within hours, no trace was ever found. His disappearance is reflected in a Chilean set phrase, "more lost than Lieutenant Bello", applied to people who stray off course or disappear en route.
• 1918 – USS Cyclops, collier, left Barbados on March 4, lost with 309 crew and passengers en route to Baltimore, Maryland.
• 1918 – Arthur Cravan (31), French proto-dadaist writer and art critic, disappeared near Salina Cruz, Mexico; he most likely drowned.[citation needed]
• 1919 – Mansell Richard James (25), a Canadian flying ace, was last seen in western Massachusetts on 2 June, just days after a record-setting flight between Atlantic City and Boston[27]
• 1919 – Ambrose Small (56), Canadian millionaire, disappeared from his office. He was last seen at 5:30 pm on December 2, 1919, at the Grand Theatre in London, Ontario.[28]

As an afterthought DOC, please also list (in alphabetical order or by 'class'), which of the victims of the Titanic's tragic sinking were resurrected. Obviously you need only consider the 'sinkers', we found the 'floaters' bodies.

 

[welshdean]

Sure it is. And I'm father xmas.

Ooh, ooh! I've been a very good boy. Any chance of a bike?

 

[Elizabeth I]

Jimmy Hoffa anyone?

Ahem:

Sigh. Again with this? We haven't found the body of Jimmy Hoffa, another famous historical figure who has been dead for going on forty years. Does that prove he's been resurrected?

DOC, how many, if any of these people were resurrected? All of them are dead and no body has ever been found.

<snipped for space>

Wow, that's a lot of resurrected bodiless missing people! I stand in awe.

And, if I might be permitted to add, what about Judge Crater?

 

[Mojo]

DOC, how many, if any of these people were resurrected. All of them are dead and no body has ever been found.
This part is important DOC: Please state what evidence you hold for a positive or negative resurrection hypotheses.

I'll add John Franklin to that - particularly because over 25 search parties were sent to look for him over the second half of the nineteenth century, with a dozen ships looking for him at one point, with the Admiralty offering a £20,000 reward - a huge sum of money at that time.

 

[DOC]

Did that really happen, and if so, got links? I don't actively keep up with Doc threads, but that sounds like it would be worth checking out.

Actually from memory I asked one of the alleged people which post deconverted you and I didn't get an answer.

If things like the evidence in post 670 deconverts someone so be it, but I don't believe it.

 

[DOC]

DOC, how many, if any of these people were resurrected. All of them are dead and no body has ever been found...

How many of the listed people predicted they would be raised, and how many were executed by orders of the most powerful man in the area and had a public execution. And how many had a soldier standing guard over their tomb. And how many had many of their friends dying and risking their lives after their death.