Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Hokulele]

Yea, but there must be some main reasons. I just asking what are the 2 or 3 main reasons why supposedly what I said made someone deconvert. If they can't answer that question it makes the claim suspect.

Here is carlitos' post where he talks about this:

No, it's OK. I'm trying to figure it out as we speak. My wife and I are not Catholic, but we help with a local Catholic food pantry, and we laugh when they say "oh, you are Lutheran - that's like Catholic light." Ha ha. This place does great work, and the nun who runs it should be a saint. But I don't feel super Lutheran-y lately. Let alone Catholic, which they would love us to convert to.

I have started a dialogue with my wife about this lack of faith thing, but it hasn't resolved itself yet. We both are a little lapsed in our churchgoing, but we used to be faithful.

The "E" in JREF for me is having watched 9/11 conspiracists, UFO proponents, bigfoot fans and Christians all using the same flawed thought processes to defend their claims. I am about to read a Christopher Hitchens book, for God's sake.

My bolding.

If I am reading it correctly, it isn't so much your specific posts or claims, but the (lack of) reasoning behind them.

 

[John Jones]

Here is carlitos' post where he talks about this:




My bolding.

If I am reading it correctly, it isn't so much your specific posts or claims, but the (lack of) reasoning behind them.

DOC, I hope you were paying attention.

 

[Rincewind]

Well of course I cannot speak for those who were driven to doubt by DOC's posting. But for me it is unlikely to be the lack of evidence presented: faith is not in that arena so far as I can see.

I was not a believer in the first place: but I have a lot of time for some of those who are religious and I have learned much from some. If it is true that anyone has been turned off religion by DOC I would venture to suggest it would be due to the same things which cause me not to respect what I have seen here: the main thing which appals me is the complete lack of respect for his own (and everybody else's) intelligence. It is a sad sight to watch someone who is unable to admit error and who will say anything at all in defense of his position no matter how twisted and illogical: no matter how dishonest.

This is not due to DOC being a christian: it is due to something else. I don't know what that something else is but I see the same phenomenon on other topics. I do not see it very often (though more on the net than in RL). Whatever it is due to one consequence of it is that it appears to remove all self respect from the person who has this mindset: and all sense of shame

Thank you Fiona - it encapsulates what I've come to "believe" about DOC.

In fact, I'm beginning to feel sorry for him/her.

I don't know if I'm one of those listed by DOC, but I'll volunteer my recent story.

When I was much, much younger, I was confirmed into the Presbyterian Church - I really, really bought into it back then. However, for a number of reasons it started to feel a bit irrelevant, so I drifted away. A few years ago, my monther - the "real" Christian in the family - died after eight years of Alzheimer's. I seemed to me that this was a very poor reward to her - if God really existed.

At this point, I felt that perhaps I needed to review my situation, and give Christianity another chance.

So I'd been checking out Christian websites to see if I'd made a mistake in my drift away, these sites ranging from the fawning ("I think Jesus is wonderful!" "So do I, but more than you!") - to the downright scary ("The only good Atheist is a dead Atheist"), but noticed that asking the wrong sort of questions was a good way to get banned. So, if anything, these websites weren't helping me return to the fold.

I found the JREF, ironically enough, thanks to Apollo deniers pointing me at the excellent Bad Astronomer's site where I found here.

Imagine my surprise and pleasure at finding a large thread discussing the correctness of the gospels. So, since then, I've read through the whole thing, taking breaks to stop my brains leaking out of me ears.

I've learnt a lot here, but sadly nothing from DOC. I like to think that the small contribution I've made to this thread has been more valuable than all of DOC's 135 million posts.

I don't think I've ever met anybody like DOC. How somebody can ignore advice - excellent advice - and keep to so many discredited beliefs, is beyond me.

For pretty much everybody here, evidence isn't guesswork, wishful thinking, appeals to various false authorities, etc, etc. We're looking for corroboration, that's apparently impossible for DOC to provide.

Also, many of us are looking for information - and/or an interesting and challenging discussion.

Alas, alas.....

I guess I have to admire his/her persistence -to keep returning to the same old, same old requires a huge amount of tenacity. Actually, I don't admire this - as mentioned above, I feel sorry for anybody who feels the neccessity to do this.

So - I came to this thread with high anticipation. This evaporated fairly quickly, but I've been trying to keep an open mind since.

However, I "believe" that I'm heading at an increasing rate in an Atheistic direction - and it's mainly thanks to you, DOC!

Perhaps I ought to say, "God bless you DOC!"


And ask "Whatever do you think you're achieving here"?

 

[dafydd]

There you are Doc,far from finding converts,you are turning away potential believers. Keep up the good work.

 

[Aepervius]

There you are Doc,far from finding converts,you are turning away potential believers. Keep up the good work.

In a way , DOC-like people are the best way to convince other doubting believer of the flaw of religious argument.

 

[DOC]

... If it is true that anyone has been turned off religion by DOC I would venture to suggest it would be due to the same things which cause me not to respect what I have seen here: the main thing which appals me is the complete lack of respect for his own (and everybody else's) intelligence.

Give some posts where I allegedly disrespected my own intelligence and also gives some posts where I allegedly disrespected someone elses. Making a derogatory statement is one thing , backing it up with specific and well explained examples is another.

It is a sad sight to watch someone who is unable to admit error and who will say anything at all in defense of his position no matter how twisted and illogical: no matter how dishonest.

Give 2 examples in this 434 page thread where I made an error, and then didn't admit to that error when I was asked to acknowledge that an error had been made. Once again, making a derogatory statement is one thing , backing it up with specific and well explained examples is another.

 

[Aepervius]

LOL doc, this has already been pointed to you numerous time, but you will simply DODGE it by saying you disagree, without justification, or ignore it again.

 

[zooterkin]

Give 2 examples in this 434 page thread where I made an error, and then didn't admit to that error when I was asked to acknowledge that an error had been made. Once again, making a derogatory statement is one thing , backing it up with specific and well explained examples is another.

Number one, when you claimed that Christians were told to worship on Sunday in the New Testament. When this was pointed out, you tried to justify it with a spurious reference; this was pointed out and since then you have ignored the question.

 

[Lothian]

Give some posts where I allegedly disrespected my own intelligence and also gives some posts where I allegedly disrespected someone elses.

Here

 

[DOC]

Here is carlitos' post where he talks about this:




My bolding.

If I am reading it correctly, it isn't so much your specific posts or claims, but the (lack of) reasoning behind them.

Well then, give some specific examples; making a derogatory statement is one thing, backing it up with specific examples is another.

 

[DOC]

Number one, when you claimed that Christians were told to worship on Sunday in the New Testament. When this was pointed out, you tried to justify it with a spurious reference; this was pointed out and since then you have ignored the question.

I don't remember ever saying Christians were "told" to worship on Sunday, but the bible does mention Christians breaking bread (a specific act that Christ said to do in remembrance of him at the Last Supper) on the first day of the week. Don't you agree Sunday is the 1st day of the week.

http://charlesdailey.net/lord_sup.html

 

[Fiona]

Give some posts where I allegedly disrespected my own intelligence and also gives some posts where I allegedly disrespected someone elses. Making a derogatory statement is one thing , backing it up with specific and well explained examples is another.

There are many, as others have pointed out. But your story which sought to conflate mistake/contradiction with difficulty is a good illustration. Others have explained what is wrong with it so I won't reiterate any of that here. But it really does trample on your own intelligence and insults everybody else's. ,

Give 2 examples in this 434 page thread where I made an error, and then didn't admit to that error when I was asked to acknowledge that an error had been made. Once again, making a derogatory statement is one thing , backing it up with specific and well explained examples is another.

One example: you said there was no paper
A second: you said there was no fiction

Both have been comprehensively shown to be wrong. If you have acknowledged that then I have missed it. But I will be happy for you to point to the posts

ETA: you will not improve your position if, as I expect, you try to deal with this by saying that those precise words are not yours: I do not claim that they are. Nevertheless it is perfectly obvious to everyone that that is the gist of your claim on those aspects.

 

[Fiona]

I don't remember ever saying Christians were "told" to worship on Sunday, but the bible does mention Christians breaking bread (a specific act that Christ said to do in remembrance of him at the Last Supper) on the first day of the week. Don't you agree Sunday is the 1st day of the week.

http://charlesdailey.net/lord_sup.html

Where? Muslims have their holy day on Friday. Maybe that is neither the beginning or the end of their week, but I doubt it. Hindu's (IIRC) have their holy day on Thursday. Maybe that is neither the beginning or the end of their week, but again I doubt it. Do you have evidence that other faiths hold their holy days in mid-weeK? I suggest to you that the holy day is normally the beginning or the end of the week because that is kind of sensible for making calendars and counting time and stuff. In russian, I believe, the word for tuesday means second day: so for them monday is the first day of the week.

Sunday is the first day of the week because in judaism the Sabbath is the day god rested, I think. Christianity derives from that faith and so Sunday is their first day. But there is a move from international bodies to standardise on Monday as the first day: so it seems to me that there are possibly quite a lot of places where that is seen as normal.

Do you do much cross cultural comparison DOC?

 

[kmortis]

Do you do much cross cultural comparison DOC?

Of course he has. Look at the wealth of intimate knowledge he's shown about Native American, Jewish and Muslim cultures he's demonstrated.

 

[Agatha]

Exactly, DOC. Worship on the seventh day, the Sabbath (sabato, samedi, sábado, sâmbătă - Saturday in Italian, French, Italian/Portugese and Romanian) and break bread on the first day of the week.

 

[zooterkin]

I don't remember ever saying Christians were "told" to worship on Sunday, but the bible does mention Christians breaking bread (a specific act that Christ said to do in remembrance of him at the Last Supper) on the first day of the week. Don't you agree Sunday is the 1st day of the week.

http://charlesdailey.net/lord_sup.html

I see you haven't even bothered to go back and look at what you originally said.
Let's take a look:

Well Hoku's post really didn't address the main point of Geisler's argument. The first and second point of Geisler's argument was that the NT writers abandoned their long held sacred beliefs and adopted new ones. Why would historical people like the Jewish Peter and Jewish Paul and all the other 11 Jewish apostles abandon a perfectly good religion that was part of their culture and sacred heritage for over 1000 years. In their Jewish Religion they were the chosen race, with a special calling from God. Why throw all that under the bus and basically say to hell with worshiping on Saturday and your 1000 year old sacred tradition that we followed all of our lives -- we're now worshipping on Sunday because of what the dead Jesus taught. To hell with your (and formerly ours) 1000 year old sacred tradition of worship, we're now having communion and breaking the bread and drinking the wine because of what our dead Jesus taught. We're accepting the Gentiles now and not even requiring them to have our 1000 year old sacred circumcision because of what our dead Jesus taught,

Where did Jesus teach Christians to worship on a Sunday? As others have pointed out, Paul did not abandon going to the synagogue on the Sabbath, so that also goes against your point. It raises a red flag that you don't admit your mistakes.

 

[X]

And let's not forget the "Hindus have millions of Gods".

And of course there is the "Muhammed is the most popular name for baby boys in Britain" as well as the "Olis" debacle. I'm fairly certain DOC remembers those instances of error unadmitted, or else he wouldn't have limited his request to this thread only.

 

[dafydd]

One example: you said there was no paper
A second: you said there was no fiction

Both have been comprehensively shown to be wrong. If you have acknowledged that then I have missed it. But I will be happy for you to point to the posts

ETA: you will not improve your position if, as I expect, you try to deal with this by saying that those precise words are not yours: I do not claim that they are. Nevertheless it is perfectly obvious to everyone that that is the gist of your claim on those aspects.

Care to comment,Doc?

 

[Hokulele]

Well then, give some specific examples; making a derogatory statement is one thing, backing it up with specific examples is another.

That is the specific example you were requesting. Do you even remember what you ask people to provide?

 

[Fiona]

That is the specific example you were requesting. Do you even remember what you ask people to provide?

Course not. He has a little phrase he thinks is clever and he is using it. In fact this trait is the one thing which suggests he reads what other people say: he parrots phrases he thinks are impressive when other people use them. Trouble is he does not understand them...