Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[SUSpilot]

Regarding the quote from Reed: cherry picking again, kids. You stopped short of the relevant part, just like in the National Geographic quote. And you didn't include a very critical footnote that Reed had at the end of this section.

Basically, the full quote and procedure described shoots a 25,000 foot hole in your hypothesis that the precise surface coordinates were needed for successful rendezvous. It's a time and relative distance issue.*

Thanks for being a contestant, and be sure to try the home version.


ETA: just saw your reply to Captain Swoop. The post time was just after 0130 in New Delhi. Pretty dedicated. Of course, it was about 1300 in SFO...
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*Using a terrestrial-based analogy, a pilot flying a non-precision instrument approach (one without a glideslope) using ground-based NAVAIDS (i.e., not a GPS approach) needs to know when to execute the missed approach procedure if he doesn't see the runway environment. If the NAVAID involved is not located at the missed approach point ("MAP") then the only way for the pilot to know when to go missed is based on time from a known geographical point known as the "final approach fix (FAF)". So, if the FAF is 4.5 NM from the MAP (usually the runway, but there are other things) at 90 knots ground speed, say, the pilot, among other requirements would have to see the runway at 3 minutes from the FAF (for my fellow flight instructors/pilots here, I know that's not the full description of how to fly an approach).

That's what Reed, et al, did by getting a known good point from the CSM.

 

[Patrick1000]

Fine

Cherry picking again, kids. You stopped short of the relevant part, just like in the National Geographic quote. And you didn't include a very critical footnote that Reed had at the end of this section.

Basically, the full quote and procedure described shoots a 25,000 foot hole in your hypothesis that the precise surface coordinates were needed for successful rendezvous. It's a time and relative distance issue.*

Thanks for being a contestant, and be sure to try the home version.

-------

*Using a terrestrial-based analogy, a pilot flying a non-precision instrument approach (one without a glideslope) using ground-based NAVAIDS (i.e., not a GPS approach) needs to know when to execute the missed approach procedure if he doesn't see the runway environment. If the NAVAID involved is not located at the missed approach point ("MAP") then the only way for the pilot to know when to go missed is based on time from a known geographical point known as the "final approach fix (FAF)". So, if the FAF is 4.5 NM from the MAP (usually the runway, but there are other things) at 90 knots ground speed, say, the pilot, among other requirements would have to see the runway at 3 minutes from the FAF (for my fellow flight instructors/pilots here, I know that's not the full description of how to fly an approach).

That's what Reed, et al, did by getting a known good point from the CSM.

Fine SUSpilot, I am the last person that is going to argue with you about your point.

My point about Reed's situation is that he says when he arrived on shift, 07/21/1969 am, the 5 "options" available to him from his SELECT officer for the Eagle's place of rest on the lunar surface as determined by various methods were very different from one another. Reed wrote that. I did not.

Reed said that that the launch solution he did use featured lunar coordinates for the Eagle that were at least 25,000 feet , or 4.73 miles away from those 5 unsatisfactory options that he was initially presented with when coming on duty 07/21/1969. Those initial options from SELECT were unsatisfactory because there was no agreement among them. They were accuracy wise, for the purposes of a launch, disparate and therefore not useful. Reed wrote this. I did not.

If one looks at the Mission Report Table 5-IV, one sees the coordinate solution options which Reed had referred to in his writing as not agreeing, quite to the contrary, agreeing very well with one another for the most part. I did not publish these numbers, NASA did.

So NASA is jiving us, or Reed is making up his story. I believe Reed is telling the truth. I conclude therefore that NASA is lying.

Diagnosis; Duped Naive 20 Something Fight Officer

 

[Garrison]

"Writers" of all types Captain_Swoop add detail to enhance authenticity, or a sense of authenticity anyway. This is true whether writing fiction or non fiction. Indeed, good fiction writers are using the non fiction details of their own lives to make their "fiction" stories work, make them believable.

Script writers, including Apollo script writers, did the same.

Apollo 8 was the first "trip away from the earth" in any meaningful sense. If you read various accounts of the Apollo 8 Mission Captain_Swoop, you'll read this is the first time astronauts got sick in a meaningful way. Actually Lovell and Anders were said to have gotten motion sickness as well as Borman early on.

Because this was the first trip away from earth, the motion sickness "and then some" detail is added to make the whole thing more credible. Remember, the people you are trying to fool are not so easily fooled, flight officers and so forth. But if they hear about diarrhea in the cabin and what not, well who is gonna' make that ◊◊◊◊ up? It has to be real if Borman is crapping in outer space and the doctors are worried.

Remember also, the flight team to a member would consistently say they could never tell the difference between simulations and "real missions". So on the first "real mission" away from the earth, you throw in this poop stuff, sick astronaut to enhance its credibility as different and real, really happening, right there, diarrhea in outer space.

"The docs are worried see!"

Turns out it kind of backfired with their overdoing it. First of all, space sickness does not cause diarrhea, nor does secanol ingestion. So they are stuck with this bad viral gastroenteritis line, but that is not credible because then there are huge problems posed to the other astronauts in such a context; to Lovell and Anders with the infected poop launching itself and flying about, this way and that, like a vampire bat in space about to drop on you from above, bite you, and render you febrile, tachycardic and moon crazy.

Also, as I pointed out to loss leader in an earlier post, it does not matter what gives Borman the runs, secanol, space sickness/zero G flu, viral gastroenteritis, none of it is believable, and if it were, it plainly shows the cabin of the Columbia to not be safe, not a safe place to breath, let alone work, as there is a major flaw in the design of the phony sanitation system for the phony command module for the phony Apollo missions.

Diagnosis; Missions, and I emphasize Missions Pleural, all Bogus

What is bogus is your reasoning, it's been pointed out why these health issues are not the be all and end all you pretend they are and you simply ignore it. You make wild claims about secret military programs and when the real thing is explained to you that gets ignored as well.

I believe the only reason people are still answering your nonsense is the unpleasant possibility that refusal to answer might be taking as an inability to answer by some people reading these pages, and it wouldn't be right to leave those people to be influenced by your ignorance.

 

[Garrison]

My point about Reed's situation is that he says when he arrived on shift, 07/21/1969 am, the 5 "options" available to him from his SELECT officer for the Eagle's place of rest on the lunar surface as determined by various methods were very different from one another. Reed wrote that. I did not.

Yes but you are the one whose ignorance has led you to tie the truth in knots to make it sounds as if there is anything there to support your bizarre notions.

 

[Patrick1000]

I beg to differ

Yes but you are the one whose ignorance has led you to tie the truth in knots to make it sounds as if there is anything there to support your bizarre notions.

I beg to differ Garrison. There are no knots here. This is far far far from complicated.

H. David Reed wrote an excellent first person account of his experience working at his FIDO Mission Control console on the morning of 07/21/1969. The success of the mission, whether that mission genuine or simulated, depended on him.

NASA's report of those same events per its coordinate listing in Mission Report table 5-IV directly contradicts Reed. There are no knots. There is nothing complicated here. One or the other is lying.

I say Reed is honest. I say this because Reed has no reason to lie, none.

Diagnosis; We spent $130,000,000,000 on the world's most expensive video game/simulation consoles, Houston's Mission Control.

 

[GlennB]

..... First of all, space sickness does not cause diarrhea, nor does secanol ingestion.

MedlinePlus among others, note diarrhea as a possible side-effect.

And yet, after my post quoted above, you accepted that Seconal (note the spelling, Patrick ... tsk tsk that a medic like you should get it so wrong) can, in fact, cause diarrhea.

Now you deny something you previously accepted.

Whither goest thou?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

NASA's report of those same events per its coordinate table in the Mission Report 5-IV directly contradicts Reed. There are no knots. There is nothing complicated here. One or the other is lying.

I say Reed is honest. I say this because Reed has no reason to lie, none.

If you are correct, then Reed must have been absolutely flabbergasted when he read the Mission Report. Why, I just bet he kicked up a storm at the wrong figures being published in the official account. He must have raised the roof. What a slipshod way to operate. Quite intolerable.

Can you quote for us what Reed said about this travesty of a report?

 

[twinstead]

If you are correct, then Reed must have been absolutely flabbergasted when he read the Mission Report. Why, I just bet he kicked up a storm at the wrong figures being published in the official account. He must have raised the roof. What a slipshod way to operate. Quite intolerable.

Can you quote for us what Reed said about this travesty of a report?

This is like all the thousands of thousands of experts around the world who haven't spoken up about how "compelling" the evidence is that 9-11 was an inside job; Reed is either afraid to come forward, to stupid to realize the official account is wrong, or "in on it".

There's no other explanation

 

[Garrison]

I beg to differ Garrison. There are no knots here. This is far far far from complicated.

It is indeed. Apollo went to the moon and you are an inept, sockpuppeting, troll. Very simple.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

This is like all the thousands of thousands of experts around the world who haven't spoken up about how "compelling" the evidence is that 9-11 was an inside job; Reed is either afraid to come forward, to stupid to realize the official account is wrong, or "in on it".

There's no other explanation

I guess you're right. Poor guy, "they" must have got to him... Oh! Wait a minute! That can't be right: in "The Trench", Reed is writing after the mission report. He puts his figures out there for everyone to see. So they didn't get to him after all!

Patrick must just have skipped over the bit where Reed lambasted NASA as liars and incompetents. I bet that was it. If we ask Patrick to check his book again, we'll be able to see the actual quote where Reed explains that the Mission Report is a phoney and his are the true figures.

Any time now, I feel sure.

Patrick?

 

[drewid]

Why no environmental report specifically addressing this important occurrence?

I apologise for the Pat style wall, but it is worth a read if you're interested in the medical background.

It's from the "Preliminary clinical report of the medical aspects of Apollos 7 and 8." The PDF doesn't display correctly but the text is still there, you can also view it as html. I've spaced it a bit to aid readability.

Prior to the Apollo 8 mission, there was a virtual epidemic of acute viral gastroenteritis which appeared to last for 24 hours occurring among personnel in the Cape Kennedy area. A number of NASA personnel at the Cape developed this "24-hour intestinal flu."

During the Apollo 8 mission, the commander had difficulty falling asleep during his sleep period scheduled for 11 hours ground elapsed time (g.e.t.) 1 - 13 g.e.t. He took 100 milligrams of Seconal which induced 5 hours of "fitful" sleep. On awakening, he complained of nausea and a moderate occipital headache. He took two aspirin for the headache and assumed his position on the couch for the next duty cycle.

The nausea continued, terminating in repeated retching and vomiting on two occasions. This was accompanied by a feeling of irritation or soreness of the throat, probably due to the vomiting, and some gastrointestinal distress which produced a soft stool. He was afebrile.

Based on a presmptive diagnosis of viral gastroenteritis, he was advised to take dipnenoxylate hydrochloride, atropine sulfate, and cyclizine should he have continued difficulty. He rapidly improved, however, and required no treatment.

During the postflight debriefing, the commander stated that he felt the illness might be due to the ingestion of Seconal. In the preflight drug testing, two of the crewmen had noticed some gastrointestinal upset the morning following the use of Seconal on the first trial. This was attributed to the viral gastroenteritis which was prevalent in the Cape area.
Another trial on two of the crewmen produced no similar symptoms and, unfortunately, the commander did not repeat the preflight test.

A postflight check of the Seconal exposure will be done as soon as practical and a final diagnosis can then be made at that time.

It is of interest that the waste managment fecal bags were successfully used to contain the vomitus and the loose stool. We were concerned about the possible aspiration of the vomitus, but this proved to be no problem in the actual situation and the crewman was able to contain all the vomitus easily in the fecal bag.

- Preliminary clinical report of the medical aspects of Apollos 7 and 8

And here are the team that Pat is calling incompetent

Mission Control and Management:
Charles A. Berry, M.D.
A. Duane Catterson, M. D.
W. Royce Hawkins, M. D.

Immuno-Hematology:
Craig L. Fischer, M. D.
Phillip Johnson, M. D.
William C. Levin, M. D.
Stephen E. Ritzmann, M. D.

Mission Control:
John F. Zieglschmid, M. D.
Kenneth Beers, M. D.

Bone Densitometry:
Pauline Mack, Ph.D.
Paul Rambaut , Ph.D.

Mission Control Staff Support :
Fred Humbert, M. D.
Gilbert Sales, M. D.
Charles LaPinta, M. D.
Keith Baird, M. D.
Elliott Thrasher, M. D.
Richard Pollard, M. D.

Food :
Malcolm C. Smith, D.V.M.
Rita M. Rapp

Water and Waste :
Richard L. Sauer

Physical Examinations:
Clarence Jernigan, M. D.
Robert Moser, M. D.
Daniel Spoor, M. D.
Alan C. Harter, M. D.
John Teegan, M. D.
J. M. Joiner, M. D.
Dolores O'Hara, R. N.

Virology :
James L. McQueen, D.V.M

Exercise Capacity:
W. R. Carpentier, M. D.
John Rummel, Ph.D.
Lawrence Morehouse, Ph.D.

Bacteriolom :
James Kelton Ferguson, Ph.D.

Endocrine :
Carolyn Leach, Ph.D.

Toxicology:
Elliott Harris , Ph.D.

Lower Body Negative Pressure:
Robert Johnson, M. D.
George W. Hoffler, M. D.
Roger Wolthuis, M. D.

Radiation :
Charles M. Barnes, D.V.M

 

[abaddon]

Pleural

What an intriguing spelling mistake.

 

[R.A.F.]

Like I said Toke, at least we can be thankful the thing is fake. Otherwise we'd be grossed out to death instead of giggling our fannies off.

No matter how you try and disguise it, no one here agrees with you. If you can't see that, then your "problems" extend far further than simply believing in the Moon hoax.

 

[Toke]

No matter how you try and disguise it, no one here agrees with you. If you can't see that, then your "problems" extend far further than simply believing in the Moon hoax.

Funny, I did not in any way see that WE as including me.
I just took it as referring to his composite nature/a bunch of kids.

 

[SUSpilot]

Funny, I did not in any way see that WE as including me.
I just took it as referring to his composite nature/a bunch of kids.

Ditto

 

[SUSpilot]

Fine SUSpilot, I am the last person that is going to argue with you about your point.

<snip>

If one looks at the Mission Report Table 5-IV, one sees the coordinate solution options which Reed had referred to in his writing as not agreeing, quite to the contrary, agreeing very well with one another for the most part. I did not publish these numbers, NASA did.

So NASA is jiving us, or Reed is making up his story. I believe Reed is telling the truth. I conclude therefore that NASA is lying.

Diagnosis; Duped Naive 20 Something Fight Officer

Wait a second. Aren't those the numbers from the post-mission analysis? What numbers did Reed have at the time of his solution from his SELECT officer? In other words, what raw numbers were to be had at that time?

 

[dafydd]

What an intriguing spelling mistake.

A doctor in his fifties? Don't make me laugh.

 

[abaddon]

A doctor in his fifties? Don't make me laugh.

Perhaps it is the sum of the ages of the gestalt entity known as P1K

 

[Patrick1000]

Reed's Coordinates

Wait a second. Aren't those the numbers from the post-mission analysis? What numbers did Reed have at the time of his solution from his SELECT officer? In other words, what raw numbers were to be had at that time?

The coordinates listed in the Apollo 11 Mission Report for the rendezvous Radar real-time solution are 0.636 north and 23.50 east. Adding and subtracting the correction factors puts one almost "in Neil Armstrong's lap" at 0.676 north and 23.43 east. This is roughly 1200 feet from Tranquility Base(0.6875 north and 23.433 east). These are Reed's launch coordinates per the Mission Report.

The rendezvous radar numbers are not post flight analysis numbers. The PNGS, AGS, AOT, powered flight processor/MSFN, likewise are not post flight , but rather real-time solutions, and were the very solutions available to Reed from SELECT when he arrived on duty. Granted, the number specifics, the details, contradict Reed's story, but that is the whole point. Reed calculated the Rendezvous Radar numbers for himself because he rejected the PNGS, AGS, AOT and MSFN solutions given they were at variance from one another and so not credible. Which one was correct? Reed rejected them all and solved for himself.

I contacted a NASA historian and mentioned the rendezvous radar coordinates in the Mission Report were not only close to Tranquility Base, but close to the PNGS, AGS and powered flight processor numbers. I included in my note to the historian, a long quote from Reed's book, pointing out that what I was reading in the Mission Report, the coordinates as presented there, were very much at odds with the story as related in Reed's first person account. In that telling by Reed, NASA's best and brightest FIDO clearly stated his rendezvous radar solution was no closer than 25,000 feet/4.73 miles to the Mission Report's PNGS, AGS and powered processor solutions.

Needless to say, I became all the more confused when I received a reply from the NASA historian stating that the actual numbers Reed used were not 0.676 north and 23.43 as per the Mission Report, but rather 0.790 north and 23.406 east. These latter coordinates here are Reed's launch numbers per the NASA historian with whom I communicated.

That north latitude line alone, given to me by the NASA historian, 0.790 north, lies 2 miles above Tranquility base. The east coordinate is fairly close, so for now, let's call it 2 miles.

Reed's solution wasn't supposed to be 2 miles from Tranquility Base. This is from the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal;

"121:08:14 Collins: Rog. Understand. (Pause)

The LM crew will track the Command Module as it passes over the landing site for the last time prior to launch and, with the Command Module orbit well known, in principle the tracking data will help pin down the landing site. With the information available a half hour before launch - including the crew's descriptions of West Crater and Little West Crater and the returns from the laser reflectometer - at 123:55:23, Ron gives Mike a final LM location of J.5/7.7, which is only about 200 meters from the actual landing site at J.65/7.54. Mike will be too busy during that pass over the landing site to look for the descent stage."

This is from the voice transcript;

Time: 05 03 55 33

"CC Roger. It's just west - at west crater, Juliett 0.5, 7.7. Over.

CMP Understand that it is just west of the crater (COLUMBIA) Juliett 0.5 and 7.7. Is that correct?

CC Columbia, Houston. That is correct.

CMP Okay. Thank you, Ron."

So according to Reed, he calculates the coordinate solution by way of the rendezvous radar and that solution is listed in the Mission Report as 0.676 and 23.43, once one corrects for the trajectory to map consideration. This seems to square with the Voice Transcript Report which indicates the prelaunch coordinates are Juliett .5/7.7 which puts the estimated LM position a couple of hundred meters from that of Tranquility Base(Juliett 6.5/7.54). Rendezvous radar determined LM location per Mission Report is 1200 feet from Tranquility Base while the Voice Transcript indicates LM at Juliett .5/7.7 and 200 meters from Tranquility Base, so close enough for me. I won't quibble over that, no discrepancy there as far as I am concerned.

But the Mission Report data does not square at all with Reed's account overall, because in the Mission Report, all of the real-time solutions are very close to Reed's(Mission Report Table 5-IV Rendezvous Radar numbers). That cannot be correct, or better said, it is not consistent with Reed's account. AND the NASA historian gave me numbers totally at variance with all of these, saying the launch coordinates were 0.790 north and 23.406 east. When I challenged the NASA historian by pointing out these coordinates were 2 miles from any other coordinates listed anywhere, the person was not able to give me an explanation, or a reference as to where his numbers came from.

Don't pee on my back and tell me it's raining, even if we are located in pretend outer space. This is lunar 3 Card Coordinate Monte, number shuffling with intent to deceive.




The 3 Space Musketeers couldn't lie their way out of a paper bag, let alone an Apollo Mission "air" distress potty bag.

Diagnosis; Mission Bogus!

 

[Toke]

What coordinate system are your location in?

28.78 north, 77.22 east