Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[Toke]

Read all the time Toke. Check the book out, Logsdon' s JOHN KENNEDY AND THE RACE TO THE MOON. It is an important academic work.

Well ok, it will be interesting to see what you will get out of it.

 

[332nd]

Toke, I know the poop thing is dragging on a bit, what can I say? Just to let you know, I am looking at some new and really interesting stuff.

I just got John M. Logsdon relatively new book, JOHN F. KENNEDY AND THE RACE TO THE MOON. Logsdon is a serious academic. Looking at this and other materials, I am getting a sense that more likely than not, Kennedy knew we could not get to the moon, right from the get go. That is not what Logsdon's highly regarded book is about. His book assumes we went, assumes we actually landed on 07/20/1969, assumes a genuine/sincere decision was made by Kennedy to rally the troops and push the country to do this great thing.

But for me, reading Logsdon's work and others, familiarizing myself with the political climate and military realities, not to mention knowing what I know about the cislunar sanitation issue, I have come to believe Kennedy is the "Big Cheese". He says "Let's Go to The Moon!", not because he thinks we can really make it, but because we need the cover of NASA and the new Apollo Program to get a few bucks and implement a few things, stuff we are not supposed to do.

Apollo was the perfect cover and it started with Kennedy, a conscious effort by
Kennedy to kick off the Apollo military program/moon instrumentation program/not to mention other military space activities, under the guise of a NASA that was allegedly benign, peaceful and above all, civilian.

I'll give details later Toke, many of them, let you know how I know this to be true. Has to be. Cannot be otherwise. But need to finish some research in that area, finish Logsdon's book, and finish with some other materials, and of course I really want to nail down the poop thing too before moving on.

Thanks for your patience.

How old did you say you were?

 

[Patrick1000]

53

How old did you say you were?

I am 53 years of age Redtail, 54 in November. I was 11 at the time of the "Apollo 11 landing".

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

give up. nobody believes that lie anymore. Haven't you noticed?

 

[SUSpilot]

I am 53 years of age Redtail, 54 in November. I was 11 at the time of the "Apollo 11 landing".

So you're about two years younger than me and you don't remember the Gemini program? Let's see, I was in fourth/fifth grade at that time. You would have been in second or third. Don't know about your school district, but the space program was a pretty big deal in the suburbs north of Chicago.

Better head to the library and start digging out those NatGeos, kids.

 

[332nd]

I am 53 years of age Redtail, 54 in November. I was 11 at the time of the "Apollo 11 landing".

& you weren't familiar with the political climate?

 

[Philth53]

First post here. I've followed this parade of nonsense from BAUT.

I'd like to know........if feces are so contaminated, and deadly, how has mankind survived until now? Each and every single turd is a germ laden death bomb. We should have been wiped out eons ago.

Phil

 

[SUSpilot]

<snip>

But for me, reading Logsdon's work and others, familiarizing myself with the political climate and military realities, not to mention knowing what I know about the cislunar sanitation issue, I have come to believe Kennedy is the "Big Cheese". He says "Let's Go to The Moon!", not because he thinks we can really make it, but because we need the cover of NASA and the new Apollo Program to get a few bucks and implement a few things, stuff we are not supposed to do. <snip>

You have a problem, here. In 1961, when JFK said we should go to the Moon, there was nothing in place that would have prevented us from putting any weaponry in space. In fact, the treaties covering the non-militarization of space came about due to our fears that the USSR was going to use its heavy-lift capacity to orbit large weapons.

Kennedy initiated the program to increase our international prestige, bounce back from the Berlin Wall and Bay of Pigs, provide stimulus to the economy, and generally to reboot (to use the current idiom) his administration.

After Kennedy's death, we completed the program because our national prestige was cat stake, a martyred president had committed us to it, and it had taken on it's own momentum.

Give it up, already. We went.

 

[GlennB]

Bare with us! The subject is mission critical!

We all have to get naked together

 

[Garrison]

I just got John M. Logsdon relatively new book, JOHN F. KENNEDY AND THE RACE TO THE MOON. Logsdon is a serious academic. Looking at this and other materials, I am getting a sense that more likely than not, Kennedy knew we could not get to the moon, right from the get go. That is not what Logsdon's highly regarded book is about. His book assumes we went, assumes we actually landed on 07/20/1969, assumes a genuine/sincere decision was made by Kennedy to rally the troops and push the country to do this great thing.

So you are going to use a book that has the exact opposite hypothesis to the one you are advancing as a source, idiocy duly noted.

But for me, reading Logsdon's work and others, familiarizing myself with the political climate and military realities, not to mention knowing what I know about the cislunar sanitation issue, I have come to believe Kennedy is the "Big Cheese". He says "Let's Go to The Moon!", not because he thinks we can really make it, but because we need the cover of NASA and the new Apollo Program to get a few bucks and implement a few things, stuff we are not supposed to do.

But of course there's none of that in the book right? And you have no source that shows such 'stuff' was built with the Apollo budget? Also you clearly have no idea what you are talking about with regard to the origins of Apollo.

Apollo was the perfect cover and it started with Kennedy, a conscious effort by
Kennedy to kick off the Apollo military program/moon instrumentation program/not to mention other military space activities, under the guise of a NASA that was allegedly benign, peaceful and above all, civilian.

Evidence, look it up in the dictionary if you don't understand the word.

I'll give details later Toke, many of them, let you know how I know this to be true. Has to be. Cannot be otherwise. But need to finish some research in that area, finish Logsdon's book, and finish with some other materials, and of course I really want to nail down the poop thing too before moving on.

US military space plans in the 60's are not some deep dark mystery. The USAF had a whole shopping list that were abandoned in no small part because of Apollo. Going to the moon didn't provide a cover, it was the thing that pushed the USAF out of manned spaceflight. Try these links for some real info:

X-20
MOL
Blue Gemini

This one even has lots of nice pictures and not to many long words, it even includes the Soviet plans that didn't happen either:

Deep Cold

Lots of bright ideas, none of them happened in no small part because the US decided to go to the moon, which would make it the worst cover story in history, well second next your various sockpuppets of course Patrick.

Thanks for your patience.

I don't think anyone here has any left, come up with some real evidence or just give up this fatuous nonsense.

 

[Kiwi9]

Most regulars in this thread will recall that Patrick1000 completely avoided answering the simple request that he tell us, in his own words, exactly what it was that FIDO H. David Reed accomplished the morning that the ascent stage of Eagle lifted off the moon. He was reminded many times and even told us to be patient, but he never answered.

It was such a simple thing that he could have done it in about as many words as I've used above. However, it is very telling that he deliberately avoided doing so, probably because he realised that it would make nonsense of his hoax claims.

Note, too, that he hasn't mentioned Reed for a long, long time.

However, leaving that behind, I would now like Patrick1000 to tell us, in his own words, exactly what his understanding is of the length of time between Frank Borman becoming ill and Chuck Berry talking to the Apollo 8 crew.

Perhaps he could also say whether he thinks the crew could have cleaned up the cabin before Berry spoke to them, and whether he thinks they had to clean up bucketsful that were splattered everywhere, or just a few relatively minor globs of goo.

I'd also like him to tell us exactly what was said during that discussion between Berry and the crew, and to give us all the information he has on what the medical people in Mission Control discussed, particularly their diagnosis of Bormans's illness. Not just links or quotes, Patrick1000 (if you are reading this), but your own understanding in your own words, although it would be excellent if you provided links or references to the material that gives you that understanding.

I expect that Patrick1000 will conform to his established track record and will not respond in an adult-like manner, and as I have pretty-much had a gutsful of this lying, one-eyed, idiotic troll who seems to know nothing at all about logical fallacies or the Dunning-Kruger syndrome, I would ask other members to kindly follow up this point with him as many times as necessary.

 

[billdun262]

Mercury, Gemini, Vostok, and Voskhod didn't have toilets. I guess all of those missions were fake.

Given the size of the Chinese spacecraft, I seriously doubt it has one.

Soyuz still doesn't have one. Granted, it is only used for short independent flights these days, but in 1970 the Soyuz 9 crew remained aboard their toiletless spacecraft for 18 days.

The shuttle and space stations are the only manned spacecraft with enough interior room for an actual toilet. All the rest, have had to use plastic bags for poop.

 

[sts60]

Heh. I was in one of the Orbiters once (in the OPF) for a postflight test on our payload, and they had to remove the toilet. After some discussion, I was allowed to remain inside by myself since it was easier than interrupting the test. (IIRC, the crew compartment counted as a confined space, with air ducted in from outside, so that had to be considered.) The thing looks like a cross between a bomb and a graven idol of the Goddess of Plumbing.

As for the rest, I can't believe you're still giving the poor incompetent pretend doctor/scientist/writer/grownup (but very real liar and troll) any attention.

 

[Michael Cook]

As for the rest, I can't believe you're still giving the poor incompetent pretend doctor/scientist/writer/grownup (but very real liar and troll) any attention.

Shadenfreude; seeing him dodge frantically in x, y, z, then crash and burn over and over.

 

[TjW]

I have to admit I have a certain fascination for the design of the Shuttle toilet. From what I've read, there are "slinger tines" that break up the feces and sling it to stick to the walls. The tines are also shaped to help move air through a filter to keep odors to a minimum.
It's one of the few things I've seen where the **** is designed to hit the fan.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Though I'd hate to lose him, I think Patrick is wasted here on such a small audience. He surely ought to be spamming medical forums with his poopgate theory. Real doctors deserve a good belly laugh too, don't you think? It's the best medicine, after all.

 

[fess]

From Borman's first person account in Life Magazine, to Chaikin's "A MAN ON THE MOON", to NASA's very own Apollo 8 Mission Report itself, the story of Borman's "aerosolized feces" has become if not legendary, then nevertheless, certainly well known. Why no environmental report specifically addressing this important occurrence? The success of all journeys to follow; 9, 10, Apollo 11 itself !!!, Neil Armstrong's landing, would depend on it no less.

Why was the filtration system not clogged? Why didn't the astronauts talk about the stretch more? Certainly there were other episodes of cislunar sanitary indiscretion. Couldn't possibly have been the case that Borman's Apollo 8 ride was the only sojourn that featured the release of large combustible gas quantities within the cockpit.

I say this semi-tongue-n-cheek because I know the whole thing to be fake, but were it real, the amount of hydrogen, hydrogen sulfide and methane released into the cabin by Armstrong/Aldrin and Collins would need to be accounted for. It would quite literally be a fire hazard. The gases are combustable.

On Apollo 13, there would have been no filtering of air, none, zero. So every time Jim Lovell took a big gross one, some of that material would wind up in the air, the gases, including flammable gases, and Lovell's full entourage of bacteria too. So gross! Glad this is fake or I really couldn't stand it. Same with Haise, same with Swigert.

So when Lovell called Houston with the famous, "We've got a problem line". It was indeed bigger than anyone could have ever imagined. A horrific demise by asphyxiation, somewhere from within the sealed bowel of a terrestrial studio. A fake fate to be sure, ever so ever so ever so worse than a fake death.

Diagnosis; phony poop and phony mission to boot!

A classic non-answer. Unless of course you are implying that a fart would cause an explosive atmosphere inside the module.

You are an embarrassment to those of us who are over fifty, if that is indeed your age. Why not try growing up and acting your age?

 

[Patrick1000]

In Reed's Own words

Most regulars in this thread will recall that Patrick1000 completely avoided answering the simple request that he tell us, in his own words, exactly what it was that FIDO H. David Reed accomplished the morning that the ascent stage of Eagle lifted off the moon. He was reminded many times and even told us to be patient, but he never answered.

It was such a simple thing that he could have done it in about as many words as I've used above. However, it is very telling that he deliberately avoided doing so, probably because he realised that it would make nonsense of his hoax claims.

Note, too, that he hasn't mentioned Reed for a long, long time.

However, leaving that behind, I would now like Patrick1000 to tell us, in his own words, exactly what his understanding is of the length of time between Frank Borman becoming ill and Chuck Berry talking to the Apollo 8 crew.

Perhaps he could also say whether he thinks the crew could have cleaned up the cabin before Berry spoke to them, and whether he thinks they had to clean up bucketsful that were splattered everywhere, or just a few relatively minor globs of goo.

I'd also like him to tell us exactly what was said during that discussion between Berry and the crew, and to give us all the information he has on what the medical people in Mission Control discussed, particularly their diagnosis of Bormans's illness. Not just links or quotes, Patrick1000 (if you are reading this), but your own understanding in your own words, although it would be excellent if you provided links or references to the material that gives you that understanding.

I expect that Patrick1000 will conform to his established track record and will not respond in an adult-like manner, and as I have pretty-much had a gutsful of this lying, one-eyed, idiotic troll who seems to know nothing at all about logical fallacies or the Dunning-Kruger syndrome, I would ask other members to kindly follow up this point with him as many times as necessary.

REED

From the now often quoted book, FROM THE TRENCHES OF MISSION CONTROL TO THE CRATERS OF THE MOON. Reed's writing is in the book's Chapter Three.

Reed;


"My next mission was Apollo XI which would be “nominal” except for the lunar launch. We realized then, that if we could get through simulations we could get through anything. Still, we were all no doubt scared to death as we stepped up to that ultimate mission. I was assigned to “launch” XI and to setup the lunar lift-off targeting....


I would work with SELECT and DYNAMICS to get all the relative geometry down and work out the correct ignition time for return to the CSM. Piece of cake really. All we needed were landing site coordinates and a solid ephemeris on the CSM."


Maurice Kennedy; Charles Deiterich III; William Stoval; William Boone III; Glynn S. Lunney; H. David Reed; Jerry C. Bostick (2011-05-13). From The Trench of Mission Control to the Craters of The Moon (ebook Locations 5609-5638).

I assume this is what you were interested in Kiwi9. Reed of course would know better than me and so I thought it best to allow him to answer your question for himself.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Why would they include the poop incident if it's a fake? It doesn't make sense.

As for mess and smell, you want to be onboard an AS Frigate in North Atlantic winter storm with half the Watch down with sea sickness and the runs to knowwhat a smell is!.

SAS Observation teams will sit in a hide for up to a week pooping in bags or holes in the ground if they need to.

 

[Patrick1000]

Details make the scam more believable.

Why would they include the poop incident if it's a fake? It doesn't make sense.

As for mess and smell, you want to be onboard an AS Frigate in North Atlantic winter storm with half the Watch down with sea sickness and the runs to knowwhat a smell is!.

SAS Observation teams will sit in a hide for up to a week pooping in bags or holes in the ground if they need to.

"Writers" of all types Captain_Swoop add detail to enhance authenticity, or a sense of authenticity anyway. This is true whether writing fiction or non fiction. Indeed, good fiction writers are using the non fiction details of their own lives to make their "fiction" stories work, make them believable.

Script writers, including Apollo script writers, did the same.

Apollo 8 was the first "trip away from the earth" in any meaningful sense. If you read various accounts of the Apollo 8 Mission Captain_Swoop, you'll read this is the first time astronauts got sick in a meaningful way. Actually Lovell and Anders were said to have gotten motion sickness as well as Borman early on.

Because this was the first trip away from earth, the motion sickness "and then some" detail is added to make the whole thing more credible. Remember, the people you are trying to fool are not so easily fooled, flight officers and so forth. But if they hear about diarrhea in the cabin and what not, well who is gonna' make that ◊◊◊◊ up? It has to be real if Borman is crapping in outer space and the doctors are worried.

Remember also, the flight team to a member would consistently say they could never tell the difference between simulations and "real missions". So on the first "real mission" away from the earth, you throw in this poop stuff, sick astronaut to enhance its credibility as different and real, really happening, right there, diarrhea in outer space.

"The docs are worried see!"

Turns out it kind of backfired with their overdoing it. First of all, space sickness does not cause diarrhea, nor does secanol ingestion. So they are stuck with this bad viral gastroenteritis line, but that is not credible because then there are huge problems posed to the other astronauts in such a context; to Lovell and Anders with the infected poop launching itself and flying about, this way and that, like a vampire bat in space about to drop on you from above, bite you, and render you febrile, tachycardic and moon crazy.

Also, as I pointed out to loss leader in an earlier post, it does not matter what gives Borman the runs, secanol, space sickness/zero G flu, viral gastroenteritis, none of it is believable, and if it were, it plainly shows the cabin of the Columbia to not be safe, not a safe place to breath, let alone work, as there is a major flaw in the design of the phony sanitation system for the phony command module for the phony Apollo missions.

Diagnosis; Missions, and I emphasize Missions Pleural, all Bogus