Merged 8.8 quake in Sendai, Japan

[MG1962]

Let's see. Build a nuclear reactor in a major earthquake/tsunami zone without having the ability to shut it down should either of those two happen . . . great.

They do - it is a case of when both happen at the same time

 

[William Parcher]

Amazing series of before/after photos of populated areas and other affected areas. The tsunami has changed the landscape.

 

[qayak]

They do - it is a case of when both happen at the same time

Still doesn't make sense. Did no one realise that a quake relatively close to the reactor would mean a tsunami within minutes? It isn't like Japan doesn't have a history here.

I hope they get it sorted out. They don't need an earthquake, a tsunami AND a Chernobyl.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Amazing series of before/after photos of populated areas and other affected areas. The tsunami has changed the landscape.

Fantastic image set up.

 

[gumboot]

Still doesn't make sense. Did no one realise that a quake relatively close to the reactor would mean a tsunami within minutes? It isn't like Japan doesn't have a history here.

Is there any evidence that the tsunami caused issues? Seems to me they do have procedures in place, and most of them worked fine. For whatever reason it didn't work in one plant.

ETA. I see that the Tsunami did cause issues. Nevermind.

 

[a_unique_person]

It won't be a Chernobyl, but it is something that was completely avoidable.

At the Fukushima No. 1 atomic plant 250km northeast of Tokyo, the quake knocked out cooling systems vital for keeping the reactor from overheating, and back-up generators were disabled by tsunami flooding.

If you can't consider the possibility of a tsunami with an earthquake in Japan, something is wrong.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/sp...-huge-earthquake/story-fn7zkbgs-1226020058265

 

[BeAChooser]

It won't be a Chernobyl, but it is something that was completely avoidable.

Perhaps. But hindsight is cheap.

By the way, the headline of that article you linked, "Thousands feared dead after blast at Fukushima No. 1 plant in Japan", was either written by a moron or an environmental wacko trying to dishonestly kill the nuclear power industry.

 

[qayak]

Is there any evidence that the tsunami caused issues? Seems to me they do have procedures in place, and most of them worked fine. For whatever reason it didn't work in one plant.

ETA. I see that the Tsunami did cause issues. Nevermind.

Yes, earthquake hit followed ten minutes later by the tsunami. Not much time to effect a shutdown.

 

[qayak]

Perhaps. But hindsight is cheap.

In this case, lack of foresight is going to be very costly and maybe fatal to an entire area.

By the way, the headline of that article you linked, "Thousands feared dead after blast at Fukushima No. 1 plant in Japan", was either written by a moron or an environmental wacko trying to dishonestly kill the nuclear power industry.

I know, right? I have never seen sensationalism in a newspaper before. Do you think the earthquake and tsunami have led to a NWO with morons and enviro-wackos in charge?

 

[Orphia Nay]

Just heard on TV: A third reactor has exploded - Reactor No 3 at the same plant.

 

[a_unique_person]

Yes, earthquake hit followed ten minutes later by the tsunami. Not much time to effect a shutdown.

They did shutdown correctly. They still needed cooling.

 

[BeAChooser]

In this case, lack of foresight is going to be very costly and maybe fatal to an entire area.

This will be costly, yes, but it's still unlikely that the entire area will be fatally harmed by the presence of this nuclear power plant. Because so far the containment has done what it's supposed to do. Despite a 8.9-9.0 earthquake (amazing), 3 aftershocks that were over 7.0, and couple dozen other aftershocks that have been over 6.0 in magnitude. And despite several 7+ meter tsunami waves. You think every coastal nuclear power plant should be build to withstand that sort of event?

You need to bring a little perspective to your analysis. So far noone has died as a result of radiation release. And this is despite the fact that this was a 40 year old design. Yet it's likely that tens of thousands or even a hundred thousand people are already dead from the effects of the quake and tsunami. Do you think lack of foresight is responsible for those deaths? Why should they be viewed with any less concern?

What would you suggest authorities do to prevent those deaths? Hmmmmm? Build 10 meter high, tsunami resistant walls along any coastline anywhere near a large fault? Well that's basically every coast around the ring of fire. You think that won't be costly? You think that's feasible? And is 10 meters high enough?

Afterall, the tsunami that resulted from the Indian Ocean quake in 2004 was 15 meters high in some places (actually, some reports suggest it was 30 meters high in places). Shouldn't foresight suggest we design for that instead? Afterall, that event killed hundreds of thousands. And probably would have killed that many even in earthquake prepared Japan. Or in Los Angeles.

Seismologists have stated the Japan quake is the largest quake within the boundaries of the North American and Pacific tectonic plates in 1,200 years. Is that the period of time we should design for? Since in the last century we've seen tsunamis that reached heights of 30 meters, can you really say how high the highest might be in a 1200 year period?

Do you know the size of an asteroid that can be expected to impact once every 1200 years somewhere on earth? According to this: http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~nowack/geos105/lect19-dir/lecture19_files/image026.jpg , it's over 100 meters in diameter. Now do you know how big a tsunami is believed to be produced by a 100 meter impact in the ocean?

According to this recent book (http://books.google.com/books?id=6l...ge&q=tsunami size asteroid 100 meters&f=false ) , a 100 meter stone asteroid will produce a 15.5 meter high deep ocean wave height at a distance of 50 km. A 1.6 meter high deep ocean wave height at a distance of 500 km. And a 0.4 meter deep ocean wave height at a distance of 2000 km. And of course, an iron asteroid would produce wave heights that are about 70% higher still.

Now at 2000 km, a deep ocean wave height of 0.4 to 0.7 meters may not sound like much, but when that wave reaches a shore, it shocks up. In other words, the front of the wave slows down allowing the rear portions to overtake it, thus increasing the height of the wave. Dramatically. It's not unusual to see on-shore tsunami heights of 10 times (or more) the deep ocean wave height. So that 0.4 to 0.7 meters becomes 4 to 7 meters. And if you are unlucky enough to be only 500 km away at the time, you might see a wall of water 16 to 27 meters high. So if we are going to design with 1200 year foresight, then perhaps we really should be designing for asteroid induced tsunamis that are even higher than the 7 meters that occurred in this catastrophe.

And just to raise your concern further, consider this ...

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/11/20/asteroid-tsunami.html

 

[a_unique_person]

This will be costly, yes, but it's still unlikely that the entire area will be fatally harmed by the presence of this nuclear power plant. Because so far the containment has done what it's supposed to do. Despite a 8.9-9.0 earthquake (amazing), 3 aftershocks that were over 7.0, and couple dozen other aftershocks that have been over 6.0 in magnitude. And despite several 7+ meter tsunami waves. You think every coastal nuclear power plant should be build to withstand that sort of event?

The plants did survive the quake intact and shutdown normally as they are designed to do. A standard risk analysis would have told anyone that the risk of a tsunami knocking out the backup generators in the event of a quake was quite real, and easily avoidable. There is also the consideration that more modern designs don't even need a backup generator, and will shutdown without needing any intervention or continued cooling. These nuclear plants are all of a very early design from the 1960's. Nuclear technology has moved on considerably since then.

 

[Corsair 115]

I hope somebody in the Candian Parliament gives CTV hell over that. Did they ever present an opposing viewpoint? Somehow I doubt it.....

The CBC National News (the main network, 10 p.m. version) wasn't any better. In a report they had, the reporter interviewed someone the reporter described as an 'anti-nuclear activist.' I couldn't but help immediately wonder what that person's qualifications were to comment upon what was happening. Why that person was selected over a nuclear physicist or nuclear engineer or someone of that sort?

 

[jimbob]

Let's see. Build a nuclear reactor in a major earthquake/tsunami zone without having the ability to shut it down should either, or both, of those two happen . . . great.

I wonder if other nuclear facilities around the world are taking notes?

I like Dungeness in Southern England.

Let's build a reactor protected by a rapidly eroding shingle beach.

 

[Father Dagon]

I am assuming they are trying to get some water into the plant. If you look at the picture below, the emergency pumps will not be avaible without either onsite diesel power or offsite connection to the grid. Therefore, they can't flood the core. They can fill up containment with a fire truck and seawater most likely. This is why I think it is a last ditch effort and it won't get water into the core where is needed. Under normal circumstances, the diesels would fire up and pump water into the reactor vessel and initiate containment cooling to spray down any steam bubble. Indications are the diesels failed--perhaps due to water intrusion---so, the safety systems would not be available. Not a good thing. Loss of both diesels in a plant is outside normal safety analysis.


View attachment 21391

http://www.nrc.gov/images/bwrsm.jpg

For information: Generation III+ passive plants wouldn't have the same problem... the diesels are not needed for safety due to the passive safety system design.

glenn

Did they terrorist-proof the plant?

Weird, yes? How we can be affected more by animal suffering than by human suffering.

It's called "Zola's horse". Émile Zola wrote a novel about a mine disaster, Germinal. Thousands of deads. But what does capture the hearts of the readers, a horse running around in the mines and neighing miserably. Mr Green Helmet and his pals used a similar strategy when they they deocrated photos during the 2006 war with bright colored toys.

Save our shoes?

Soul

I think that it's a better meaning than "save our ship". Because if I'm in a fix up in the mountains, I might feel left out if I have to refer to ships. Therefore it's better with "save our shoes", since most people always wear shoes outdoors.

We when the raccoons take over from us in a few million years, Earth may finally have intelligent life.

Is there any way to preserve our films to them? I'd hate to see intelligent raccoons be left out on MST3K, derp.

because it's simple, and very distinctive
3 short, 3 long, 3 short.
3's are international distress signals--
if lost or hurt, 3 shots in the air is the signal you use.
(DOES NOT WORK with archery!)

Only if you use plain arrows. If you enhance them with fire crackers or glow sticks, then it's a different story.

I genuinely don't understand that kind of stuff.

When disasters like this and 9/11 happen, I'm always at a loss of words, and I feel bad for a while. How other people could not only not care but use these events to boost ratings or profits is beyond me, and get me more than a little angry.

Yeah. Dagensps.se, a really philistine swedish news site, posted quite a lot of pieces on how the stock market react. Well, duh, of course the stock market reacts to TENS IF NOT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DEAD THAT CAN NEITHER MAKE NOR BUY ANY NEW STUFF!

I got really pissed off when it was obvious that Wolf Blitzer was trying to get the ambassador to say that a meltdown was at least "possible".

Plus the reports of "radiation 1000 times the normal level." Fine, but in all those reports, they never once said what a dangerous level was.

And the BREAKING NEWS banner that is plastered across a large part of the screen. I've got "news" for you. It's only "breaking" if it hasn't been reported yet. Showing clips that have been repeated ad infinitum since yesterday is not new.

Reminds me of a lecture from a member of the swedish "psych defense". He told us that in 1986 it was the Forsmark nuclear power plant that discovered the Chernobyl disaster. At first they believed that it was their own power plant that went haywire.

So the media goes "oy vey, there's X units of becquerel in the drinking water". But how many litres of water did you have to drink in order to be killed by the radiation? Ca 200. And how many litres of water can you drink before the water kills you? Ca 50.

His point was that if you want your message to get trough you gotta be proactive and not tell lies.

 

[Cactus Wren]

ETA: Don't mind Plumjam. Great pith is all he knows, and when he tries to comment on serious issues he seems unable.

That's why he's been pithing all over the thread?

Well, all Japanese know what 'SOS' means. Just like English adopted the word 'tsunami', Japanese have adopted certain English words like 'SOS'.

You mean the Japanese aren't the only culture in the world to decide that a word or phrase from another language is the only expression that carries a certain je ne sais quoi?

 

[Belz...]

My girlfriend saw the cat picture and had a fit at me for showing her it. I spent a good 20 minutes making up stuff about how the cat was having a great time. She wasn't convinced. I'll be sure to conceal all knowledge of Cat Island.

I don't get that. Why are people even concerned about animals, here ???

 

[Rolfe]

My God!

This is Rikuzentakata. The place has been completely levelled except again for perhaps the hospital.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK7Lr9ZfHzk

Ah! I think he said it was the city office.

I've been watching the wiki page on Rikuzentakata since I started the section on the tsunami. I used a reference showing the place has been flattened, and what I entered is still there, but subsequent additions (including changing the section heading but that might have been for consistency) have tended to downplay it.

According to the police, every building being smaller than three storeys high has been completely flooded.[2] The Japan Self-Defense Forces reports between 300 and 400 bodies have been found in the town.[3] The tsunami reportedly reached as high as the third floor of the city hall.[4]

Talk of buildings flooded and 300 to 400 bodies being found doesn't to me reflect the extent of the devastation seen in the pictures and video clips.

Rolfe.

 

[JihadJane]

I don't get that. Why are people even concerned about animals, here ???

Because people are animals.