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Merged Skeptics vs. Knowers/Believers

How many ways could people find for you not to get in touch with him?

And now you don't know where you precious journal is either... that would be the one you take out every year to check your story is being remembered accurately?

I have a MySpace and YouTube, I could contact him on either of those on your behalf and ask for his email address... would I be wasting my time?
 
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Stray Cat said:
How many ways could people find for you not to get in touch with him?

And now you don't know where you precious journal is either... that would be the one you take out every year to check your story is being remembered accurately?

I have a MySpace and YouTube, I could contact him on either of those on your behalf and ask for his email address... would I be wasting my time?
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I really don't know...

I mean, it 'seems' as though I posted the story there initially. Then one of the posters there told me about this place.

And, I do know where my journal, or rather that edition of it, is. It is in a box marked personal books, in the back left corner of a storage locker, atop an old manual sewing machine.
 
King of the Americas said:
I really don't know...

I mean, it 'seems' as though I posted the story there initially. Then one of the posters there told me about this place.
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It also 'seems' like you saw six seven star-like red and blue oscillating lights through your windshield at night a long time ago.

KotA said:
And, I do know where my journal, or rather that edition of it, is. It is in a box marked personal books, in the back left corner of a storage locker, atop an old manual sewing machine.
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I'm sure every detail of your recollection is accurate. ;)
 
carlitos said:
It also 'seems' like you saw six seven star-like red and blue oscillating lights through your windshield at night a long time ago.


I'm sure every detail of your recollection is accurate. ;)
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Would I be 'wrong' about the existence of a box of books in a storage locker, if it were located 1 foot away from the corner, instead of IN the corner?
 
King of the Americas said:
Not interested at all actually...
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But you're very interested in talking about it and wanting everyone here to simply accept it at face value? And you were very interested in getting us to find the original version you posted online... until people actually tried to do that. Now we're on the verge of finding this "original" account, you have suddenly lost interest.

King of the Americas said:
Even if I had a video of the event, that wouldn't be proof or verification of anything. A journal entry isn't going to convince anyone of anything, either.
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However, your unwillingness to even try and find the account that you claimed would verify your story speaks volumes.
I propose that your "original account" is inadmissible as evidence (as it is at this moment non existent) and that until you provide it, you can not use mention of it to support your story. Does this seem fair?
 
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King of the Americas said:
Not interested at all actually...

Even if I had a video of the event, that wouldn't be proof or verification of anything. A journal entry isn't going to convince anyone of anything, either.
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It would convince YOU that your memory is faulty. I'm sure that's the real reason you don't want to find it.

I remember working for a place where my boss asked me for ideas to improve our struggling business. I gave him a list which he implemented, and soon the business was turned around. I got none of the credit. I was very bitter about this for a few years, then I found a copy of the initial list of ideas I had given him. Not ONE of the proposals there were actually ever implemented...it was his ideas that had saved the business, not mine. My memory was faulty, and I realized all the bitterness was for nothing.

This sort of thing happens all the time. It's unnerving to find out that memories we have great confidence in are simply wrong, but it's part of being human.
 
Stray Cat said:
But you're very interested in talking about it and wanting everyone here to simply accept it at face value? And you were very interested in getting us to find the original version you posted online... until people actually tried to do that. Now we're on the verge of finding this "original" account, you have suddenly lost interest.


However, your unwillingness to even try and find the account that you claimed would verify your story speaks volumes.
I propose that your "original account" is inadmissible as evidence (as it is at this moment non existent) and that until you provide it, you can not use mention of it to support your story. Does this seem fair?
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I haven't lost interest in anything. I never had any to begin with. If you or anyone else wants to review the information I've presented, identify errors, and then construct an argument about how my errors mean that my whole story could be fictitious, then go right ahead.

NONE of my accounts are 'evidence', here. Have you not been paying attention?
 
King of the Americas said:
I haven't lost interest in anything. I never had any to begin with. If you or anyone else wants to review the information I've presented, identify errors, and then construct an argument about how my errors mean that my whole story could be fictitious, then go right ahead.
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Once more with sincerity please.

King of the Americas said:
NONE of my accounts are 'evidence', here. Have you not been paying attention?
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Not entirely true.
No one is saying that finding your original account would be evidence to validate your UFO sighting. We are in this specific case, looking for evidence that your memory is either accurate or inaccurate, if your story has changed over time or not changed over time. The original account is direct evidence of this.
You have claimed all along that your memory of this event is accurate and that your re-telling of the account has not changed, you could provide the original account to support your claim but your refusal to do so would point to the fact that if you did, it wouldn't support your claim. But you could always prove me wrong by supplying it.
 
Stray Cat said:
...

You have claimed all along that your memory of this event is accurate and that your re-telling of the account has not changed, you could provide the original account to support your claim but your refusal to do so would point to the fact that if you did, it wouldn't support your claim. But you could always prove me wrong by supplying it.
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We've already demonstrated that my memory failed me, in my changing the number from "6" to "7"...

You and others were and are correct, memory lapses happen, and more frequently than any of us would like.

Point conceded.

Now 'I' don't think that error means squat. If I saw a bank get robbed, and 10 years later I mis-state the number of gunmen there were, this doesn't magically erase the event.
 
King of the Americas said:
I've already conceded that my memory isn't 100% accurate...
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Only after I dredged up all of this.
carlitos said:
King of the Americas said:
I suggest you mine this forum for in consistencies and then point out how my memory has changed...if it has.
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2003:
king of the americas said:
i said it was true because i saw star-like objects(6), emitting a visible light, move with a constant velocity and make right-angle turns, and move in cordination with one another, and at one point disobey the laws of physics. And i have seen more than one other example of this event in a video recording, that couldn't be identified with any terresterial craft. And that this same 'theme' is present in every form of media throughout the ages...is what leads me to this 'finding'.
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king of the americas30th october 2003 said:
:)

since when is a light not an object? This was at night, there were a half a dozen of them, and they performed tasks that no terresterial pilot could. Moreover, their ability to disobey the laws of physics, as i understand them led me to this unearthly conclusion.
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2005:
king of the americas said:
when i was like 24, a friend of mine and i were out in the country, near the red river, when we saw no less than 7 airborne 'crafts'...or things, that resembled star-like objects move in ways no terresterial-piloted vehicle could. They performed manuvers like making right angles turns with a constant velocity, and at one point 2 headed toward one another- became one - and then seperated again into two different things again...
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king of the americas24th january 2005 said:
...
That what i saw was 'probably' aliens is my stance, not that i could prove any such thing, but that i would like to rely on occam's razor...

The way i see it, there could be any number of theories that would explain what i saw. But that the 3 most likely are these: 1.) both of us could have imagines the whole thing. 2.) what we saw was a super secret terresterial craft, an uav of some sorts capabled of changing its physical form, or 3.) that there is 'some' truth behind the myths and stories written about a "god" who exists in the heavens.

I would like to boldly say that of these the first is the more unlikely, given that for 2 seperate unrelated people, uninduced by drugs or alcohol, to have the exact same hallucination would be odd, indeed.

So, what i saw was either man-made or it wasn't. Within the event i witnessed, these craft did several astounding things, some feats i have heard of and seen, while others i had not. Initially, the star-like objects moved into position, and merely 'held' their position. This was not a really big deal, because i know the helicopters can do virtually the same manuver (except that these craft moved silently). Their next feat did however raise my eyebrow, as well as my friend's. They moved, and 'seeming' without slowing down, turned at a right angle or greater. This was odd, in that i had 'heard' of some new military craft utilizing 'directional exhaust', but that the g-forces put upon a pilot's body would limit how fast turns could be accomplished. Still, a uav with the right engineering make-up might be able to simlate such feats, given the right conditions. But why would the government be showing off these things to a couple of country bumpkins??? Believe it or not, that question actually went through my mind at one point...then two of them headed for each other at a greater speed than either had previously moved. Then they did something i had never seen or heard of aircraft doing, while airborne, they became one.

Now, this was odd, moreso than anything i could have expected to see in the sky. Moreover, their joining was marked by a multiplied size. Like when you take 2 small clay balls and join them together, you expect to get 1 medium size ball. Or a ball twice the volume of one of the balls. Well, the appearance of the larger entity was "4 times" as large as the single units. So, i look to my friend and ask, "did you see those two head toward one another...?"

and he responded before i could finish, "...and join up to make a really big version of themselves.", yes, i did.

Then we looked back up at it and it seperated again into it smaller parts.
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2008:
king of the americas said:
my friend and i were scouting out a place to go camping right near the bank of the red river near gainesville texas, when i saw an unusual cloud formation/shape in the sky due north of our position. I saw it was 'unusual' because it was oddly semetrical. It looked cigar shaped, with very tapered ends. Stuff is almost never perfectly semetrical in nature, so i got a thought in my head, to use this unusual shape to screw with my friend.

I said, "hey jon, look at that ufo, man!" "that just a cloud, man...", he rebuked. "no, look how perfectly semetrical it is. That not just a cloud, it is something else!", and then i began flashing my headlights with high beam on, at it. After my second series of flashings, the right side of the cloud-looking object "shrank", and instead of a tappered edge, it seemed to "square off", like someone had used a cigar cutter on the end.

My friend and i just sat there in stunned silence. All this happened in about 2-3 minutes, at around 7:45-8:00 during the early to mid-summer. It was light enough to still see a potential camping site, but the sun was retreating quickly and stars were just beginning to appear.

Once the cigar shaped 'cloud-ufo' squared itself, and the initial shock wore off, i began flashing my lights again, in an attempt to get a reaction...which my friend was totally against.

The result of my flashing was for a 'star-like' object to appear at the squared edge of the cigar. Then the object took off in a straight line and then held its position, only to have another similiar object emerge from the cigar shape, which also took to a position and stopped. This continued to happed untill there were 7 such objects. Then they started to move in concert with one another. The first one to move made an "l" shaped flight pattern, and stopped. Then another made a "z" shaped flight path, then two others moved toward one another, joined together, and increased their "size" by 4 fold. If you take 2 pieces fo clay and mash them into one ball the size of the ball doesn't increase dramatically. These 2 objects, after joining together, did.

So, to answer your question, i saw both- something that had "shape", and mere "lights".(*i have told this tale more than once, here. I am sure you could read my initial account somewhere here.)



there was nothing 'obvious', about what we saw that evening, except that it was obvious that i had never seen anything like this before.
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king of the americas said:
the 'objects' i saw were brightly lite, and 'undulating' in colors of red, white, and blue. They 'performed' ariel feats unattainable by human pilots. Our planes 'bank' as they turn. They 'arch' through the sky, even the directional exhaust of the f-22 raptor can't achieve the "right-angle turns" these craft managed repeatedly.
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2009:
king of the americas said:
the area known as the bottom is huge, the northern edge of cooke countyis a rock bluff, that forms a ridge. There is a gravel road that turns west from atop the bluff, and travels down and along side to 75 yards away from the red river itself, and then goes back up and out onto the higher bluff. The difference in elevation probable isn't over a hundred feet.

The sky was clear, except for this huge gray 'semetrical' saucer looking cloud. I decided to try to screw with my friend telling him, "hey man look at that ufo! Look at how perfectly semetrical that cloud is. It's a ufo!" and i started flashing my headlights at it and honking.

To which it 'responded'...

...by sucking in and squaring off it's eastern edge...

...that's when the star-like objects emerged, one after the other from the squared off edge, each one zooming off to a fixed position, until there were 7 in total. Then they started to move, each move being more complex or difficult, right angle turns while maintaining a consistant speed. They didn't 'bank' and turn in the manner i am familiar with. The last thing they did was the first one that emerged and the last one headed toward each other, 'combine', and result in a 4-fold larger verson of itself (this really blew my mind, because i didn't expect something that big to result. When you put two clay balls together, you don't get something that looks 'twice' as big as the two separate entities. These two things...), i looked over at my friend and asked "did you just see two of them head toward each other...", and he interupted "...combine and make a big ass version, and then split apart again?" "yeah.", i responded.

The area has a ranch house ever square mile or 2. It's texas, there's lots of space.

There's an tiny town called burneyville about 3 miles north northwest, and they have a small airstrip.
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Consistencies include "star-like objects" (in the night sky!), them appearing to emerge from the edge of the symmetrical cloud, right-angle turns and "light," plus the 2 lights converging to appear to be one bigger light.

Inconsistencies include "light" evolving to oscillating/undulating red / white / blue, 6 objects becoming "no less than 7," "cigar" shaped vs. "saucer" shaped (this is probably a perspective thing, like the Rramjet blimp sighting).

The red / blue thing could be a recent addition, or it could be that he's conflating it with this sighting of light blue "thunderless lightning"? In any case, the level of detail varies, but that's to be expected. KotA, please feel free to clarify.

King of the Americas, I'd still be interested in seeing your original version. We might all learn something from it.
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Before that, you ridiculed the idea that your memory wasn't 100% right. You told stories about standing on a train tracks and "ignoring your senses at your own peril," but really that has nothing to do with your mis-remembering the number and color of the lights you think you saw.

Not to mention, there are a zillion mundane explanations for seeing lights through a windshield in the night sky. Assuming aliens or whatever is an argument from incredulity.
 
King of the Americas said:
We've already demonstrated that my memory failed me, [...]
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Yes.

You and others were and are correct, memory lapses happen, and more frequently than any of us would like.
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Yes.

Now 'I' don't think that error means squat.
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And that's where the process of skepticism crumbles. That's the point where a difficult to explain event becomes faithful adherence to a fantasy.
 
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