Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Mary_H]

From an article by Andrea Vogt:

Armando Finzi, an assistant in the Perugia police department's organized crimes unit, first discovered the knife in Sollecito's kitchen drawer. He said the first thing he noticed upon entering the place was a "strong smell of bleach." He opened the drawer and saw "very shiny and clean" knife lying on top of the silverware tray.

"It was the first knife I saw," he said. When pressed on cross-examination, said his "investigative intuition" led him to believe it was the murder weapon because it was compatible with the wound as it had been described to him. With gloved hands, he placed the knife in a new police envelope, taped it shut with Scotch tape, then placed it inside a folder, he said. There were smaller and bigger knives in the drawer, but no others were taken into evidence from the kitchen, he said. A small knife was taken into evidence from Sollecito's bedroom, along with other items.
[end quote]

Do we know when the photo of the drawer was taken?

The date on the photograph says it was taken on the 16th. Why they didn't take the photograph until ten days after they seized the knife, I don't know. I do see they left a knife with a serrated edge on the right.

 

[Mary_H]

Waiting for the housemates to check through them to see if any were missing. They couldn't do that if they were in the lab in Rome.

The claim that all the knives from the cottage's kitchen were tested requires documentation.

 

[Mary_H]

So? Police are allowed to think you're guilty. And in any case, he didn't say he believed her to be guilty because of her 'behaviour", but because of how she acted and what she said under questioning on the night of the 5th.

 

[Mary_H]

Yes, of course he had. The police need to know the cause of death and have a description of the myrder weapon as soon as possible. They may may even have been present while he carried it out, they often are.

Are you accusing yet another policeman of lying on the stand?

I don't think I have yet accused a policeman of lying on the stand, except of course for Battistelli, but that's common knowledge. In this case, it is likely someone told Finzi he needed a big knife to fit the wounds and he believed them and that is what he reported.

 

[Danceme]

Great question. The only reasonable explanation he could give is that they had sex and he pulled out to ejaculate.

Yes, it would be a reasonable explanation, however Rudy didn't say it even went that far. He claimed he penetrated her with his finger only I believe, which essentially fits the evidence found. If he had said he ejaculated at some point then it would change how I see it, but he didn't.

The date on the photograph says it was taken on the 16th. Why they didn't take the photograph until ten days after they seized the knife, I don't know. I do see they left a knife with a serrated edge on the right.

I think that knife is a bread knife, serrated but no pointy tip.

 

[Katody Matrass]

The claim that all the knives from the cottage's kitchen were tested requires documentation.

I wonder also if for every of these knifes they cranked up the machine repeatedly when it said "too low".

 

[Mary_H]

This is not quite true. Before this, and just as a reminder, we should keep in mind that false witness reports and inconsistent testimony is something called "evidence". <snip>

One of the primary focuses of our debate has been that the police created evidence by interrogating the defendants without lawyers present, and led them to say things they would not otherwise have said. The arrests of Amanda and Raffaele would be much less suspicious if the police had had any evidence against them before the interrogations.

 

[Mary_H]

Originally Posted by loverofzion:
Where do you find that?
Citations Rose!

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6061940&postcount=2472

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6061923&postcount=2470

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6202366&postcount=4101

Oh, do NOT mess with Rose.

 

[Mary_H]

You've not read Raffaele's police statement????

No one has. It wasn't recorded.

 

[Katody Matrass]

You've not read Raffaele's police statement????

If it is available and authentic I'll be grateful if you post it.
But if it is what the police released to the press day after the arrest and was reported by the Telegraph after another Italian newspaper then don't bother.
As Machiavelli noted before, releasing false information to the media was part of ILE tactic to break the arrested and elicit information from them.
And also quoting yourself:

I'm not going to take people that have told countless lies as sources...no.

 

[moodstream]

removed by author

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Oh, do NOT mess with Rose.

Rose has yet to refute this compelling argument however:

Massei believed Quintavalle. Thus we should believe Quintavalle too, because it is inconceivable that anything Massei believed was false. Regardless of inconsistencies in Quintavalle's statements, contradictory witness statements from others, the fact that his claims cannot possibly all be true and the fact that Massei's reasoning on the topic is specious, the fact remains that Massei was there and is a judge, so no matter how absurd his reasoning or his conclusions we must accept them as fact unless we are also judges (or pathologists) and we were also there.

If you repeat this argument often enough you can prove that everything in Massei is true (even the bits contradicted by the peer-reviewed scientific literature), and that ends the whole discussion.

 

[Mary_H]

If Rudy ejaculated onto the pillow why would he tell a story of just petting and non-intercourse sex which he says they both stopped when no one had a condom. Denying the whole sex/ejaculation part would be simply stupid if he knew he'd left his semen on a pillow which he left underneath Meredith's body. He certainly wouldn't be banking on them not finding it at the time. That in itself makes me think it's not his, but in any case I hope they test it.<snip>

This logic seems to escape a lot of people when they talk about Amanda accusing Patrick. If everyone who "participated" knew what was left at the crime scene for the police to find, they would not have bothered "lying" about it.

 

[Danceme]

Hi RWVBWL,

I posted an opinion here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6430489&postcount=10334


I'll also add in the photo below:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Amanda-Knox-and-Raffaele-Sollecito/106344459390034?v=photos&ref=ts#!/photo.php?fbid=158997610791385&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034

MK's clothes basically form a circle around where she was found. In the upper right hand corner was where her light blue jacket was found. Her shoes and sock a bit lower by the blue rug. Then her underwear, bra and jeans. Also the bra clasp and one of the socks was found underneath her. I think her clothes were removed while she was laying where she found.

It certainly helps to view these crime scene photos again with the various theories floating around in mind. To me, the theory that Rudy somehow stepped in blood after coming back to the bedroom a second time (after cleaning up in the bathroom) perhaps to look for Meredith's keys and steal her phones, just doesn't work. The photo makes it clear that someone can walk to the bed to check the purse there, or over to the beige cloth purse on the blue rug, without stepping in any blood whatsoever.

 

[Danceme]

This logic seems to escape a lot of people when they talk about Amanda accusing Patrick. If everyone who "participated" knew what was left at the crime scene for the police to find, they would not have bothered "lying" about it.

There is no doubt in my mind that Rudy would know whether he'd left semen there or not, Raffaele too for that matter were it his.
Rudy seemed to put a little bit of everything in his story to cover off all the evidence he'd left there. I think he would have embellished and said he'd also ejaculated if he knew he'd left semen.

 

[pilot padron]

Hi pilot. Your statement that Candace Dempsey started her career as a food blogger is not accurate. Here is some more information about Candace's career: http://candacedempsey.com/6.html

I have always been curious about the guilters' use of the title, "food blogger" as an apparently derogatory term. One reason it strikes me as odd is that Barbie Nadeau is a travel blogger, or at least she has been. As far as I can see, neither of these activities is deserving of derision, nor do they disqualify the authors from writing about the subject at hand.

1) Derivation of term 'food blogger'

1A Candace calls herself a (1) food and (2) travel writer on zoom info
"Candace Dempsey Food and Travel journalist Writing Instructor".
1B) This Writers.com page *by her* is only about food
http://www.writers.com/dempsey.html
1C) The title of her long time Blog ( long before her book) on seattle pi is :
Italian Woman at the Table
Bold type used as justification for original connection of blog to her lengthy food critic role there
http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/archives/206458.asp

Based on my above facts (complete with citations for your enjoyment), I stand by the "food blogger" terminology that I use.

2) Food and/or travel blogger are not inherently derogatory terms in my mind.

2A My post as I re-read is not derogatory in use of the term.
2B Use by the non innocent persuasion people in the world as derogatory is beyond my sphere of influence.

3) The URL you quote is little more than a self written, self aggrandizement collection of "see how good I am" stuff.
Many specific points there have been at best questioned, and at worst proven innaccurate and overly boastful by TJMK.
(cited cognizant of expected outcry, but certainly comparable to widespread use of injustice dot org here as cite)

4) Main Point of my Post was that I submit that Nadeau particularly is more qualified to write about the case than Dempsey and subsequently a more credible citation.

4A Unlike Dempsey's spotty trial attendance record, Nadeau attended every session cite: see above Angel Face.
5B) Unlike Dempsey, Nadeau speaks very fluent Italian, did not require services of Interpreter, surrogate trial attendee, and assistant writer.
cite: see Alagna suggestions above.

 

[Machiavelli]

One of the primary focuses of our debate has been that the police created evidence by interrogating the defendants without lawyers present, and led them to say things they would not otherwise have said. The arrests of Amanda and Raffaele would be much less suspicious if the police had had any evidence against them before the interrogations.

Let's say it like this: one of the main thesis of some people has been that the police created evidence on Amanda.
A couple of things should be added: Amanda and Raffaele created evidence before the interrogation when they gave their accounts of facts, riddled with inconsistencies, lacking logic and credibility.
Then, if we could imagine the police created evidence against them during the interrogation, after they identified them as suspects by their suspicious and not credible recollection of facts, we could as well imagine the police created evidence on Rudy after having detected his presence through a fingerprint. They could have "fabricated" the the Y-type DNA "found" in Meredith's vagina for example.
One thing the police didn't create is the amount of evidence that Amanda added herself with her declarations after the interrogation: the hand written paper, the interrogation of Dec 18., pre-trial statement, the court testimony.

 

[Malkmus]

I'm not going to take people that have told countless lies as sources...no.

That would include Barbie Nadeau, then, yes?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

at the trial

1
4A Unlike Dempsey's spotty trial attendance record, Nadeau attended every session cite: see above Angel Face.
5B) Unlike Dempsey, Nadeau speaks very fluent Italian, did not require services of Interpreter, surrogate trial attendee, and assistant writer.
cite: see Alagna suggestions above.

Barbie Nadeau did a good deal of chatting with other reporters at the trial. Dempsey used the trial transcripts. Did Ms. Nadeau? It does not look as if she did, based on her book.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

There is no doubt in my mind that Rudy would know whether he'd left semen there or not, Raffaele too for that matter were it his.
Rudy seemed to put a little bit of everything in his story to cover off all the evidence he'd left there. I think he would have embellished and said he'd also ejaculated if he knew he'd left semen.

This seems reasonable to me.

I still think the stain should have been tested, and should be tested, just on general principles. However it would surprise me if it did turn out to be Rudy's semen.