Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[pilot padron]

Was it not pretty well discussed and acknowledged that the native Italian males seemed to usually pay particular interest to blue eyed, blonde haired, female students, even if only 'suspected' to be American or at least non Italian??

Especially since this particular female American student was also pretty universally acknowledged as being at least "better than average looking" ??

In fact she had an "Angel Face".

I would offer that for above reasons, she probably would "stand out that much".
Additionally since at that time, the limited patronage would make her "stand out" even more

 

[RWVBWL]

I believe I said that at the point that Meredith was assaulted she was in no condition to resist. How does the prosecutions theory of events proceed on this. Was the sexual assault after she was stabbed or before?

Hi RoseMontague,
As a guy who had the Los Angeles Police Department investigate me and then not press charges for the crime of rape of a female "friend" BUT who had the same woman then threaten to sue me and indeed follow suit, and who was then found Not Guilty of raping my "friend" by a jury of 8 women and 4 men back in 2003, I have closely followed this particularly brutal murder and rape case that took the life of Merdith Kercher. And so my take on this case might differ than others for that reason.

I wonder what the well informed members who post here believe:

Was Meredith Kercher sexually assaulted before she was stabbed, right afterwards when she was still alive, or after she had died?

If the DNA evidence that Rudy Guede left is only from his fingers, I believe that he did assault Miss Kercher after her death.
If so, I believe that Rudy Guede might not have been the person who stabbed Meredith Kercher to her death.

If the DNA evidence that Rudy Guede left came from his penis, as LondonJohn wrote in his theory in post 10217, I believe that she was probably still alive when the sexual assault occurred and that he, Rudy Guede did stab Miss Kercher to her death.

Any opinions?
Thanks, RWVBWL

 

[RWVBWL]

We don't know that he didn't have sex with the victim. As far as I remember, the DNA discovered inside Meredith came from epithelial skin cells, which could just as likely have come from Guede's penis as from his finger. As far as I can tell, the only reason that people have come to the conclusion that Guede didn't have actual intercourse is that none of his semen was found inside Meredith. But isn't it entirely possible that Guede withdrew before ejaculation? I wonder if that pillowcase will get tested for semen.....?[/QUOTE]
_________________________________________________________________

Hi LondonJohn,
I too wonder if that pillowcase will ever get tested.
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

 

[Jungle Jim]

<a href="http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=I90579699&month=11&day=2&year=2007">weatherunderground.org</a>

Perugia, San Sisto, Perugia, Umbria - Nov 2, 2007

Temperature:
High: 59.2 °F
Low:52.2 °F
Average: 55.5 °F

Precipitation: 0.00in

For sake of accuracy, there are several problems with the information you posted:

1. San Sisto is not in Perugia but a suburb. There actually is a weather reporting station in Perugia but its climate history does not go back to 2007.
2. The temperature data you provide is between the hours of about 9:00 am - 10:00 pm, so I doubt it accurately reflects the low temperature in the early morning hours.
3. The wind speeds at San Sisto and all the surrounding weather stations (airport, Umbertide) on that day are shown to be as high as 20 mph.

I think it is fair to say that the climate in Perugia on the early morning of November 2, 2007 can be categorized as "nippy" depending, of course, on your reaction to cool weather.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

LCN DNA is the opposite of abundant

Dr Stefanoni.

Fulcanelli,

You have not provided a source for this statement. Moreover, it is obvious nonsense, as I have explained many times before. The DNA quantitation experiment gives the total amount of DNA, which was 1.14 pg, according to Raffaele's appeal. However, most of this is Meredith's DNA. The peak height of her profile on the clasp is roughly 1500 RFU, but Raffaele's presumed profile is only about 200 RFU. As Dr. Tagliabracci indicated, his profile is in the range of sixfold to tenfold smaller than Meredith's profile. This is below 200 pg, which by many definitions is in the LCN range.

The idea that Raffaele's appeal document is not a good source is nonsense. Lawyers may present facts in the most favorable light to their client, but as someone else pointed out, they rarely lie about the facts of the case.

 

[LondonJohn]

We don't know that he didn't have sex with the victim. As far as I remember, the DNA discovered inside Meredith came from epithelial skin cells, which could just as likely have come from Guede's penis as from his finger. As far as I can tell, the only reason that people have come to the conclusion that Guede didn't have actual intercourse is that none of his semen was found inside Meredith. But isn't it entirely possible that Guede withdrew before ejaculation? I wonder if that pillowcase will get tested for semen.....?[/QUOTE]
_________________________________________________________________

Hi LondonJohn,
I too wonder if that pillowcase will ever get tested.
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

Hey RW

I can't see any logic whatsoever in not getting it tested. At worst, it will be of no additional value. But if it's semen and it's Guede's, then it further diminishes Guede's "I tried to save her" tale. If it's Sollecito's, then it will confirm his guilt - and, by association, Knox's guilt. And if it's from an unidentified male, then the whole case is thrown open again.

Given that the stain on the pillowcase showed up using the crimescope as potentially being semen, and given that it appeared to have been still wet when it was smeared by one of Guede's footprints, it quite possibly is of significant importance to the investigation. My bet is that it's Guede's, and that he did have intercourse with a dying Meredith before ejaculating onto the pillow he'd placed underneath her hips. Unpleasant to have to think about, but logical and plausible.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Hi RoseMontague,
I too wonder what the well informed members who post here believe:

Was Meredith Kercher sexually assaulted before she was stabbed, right afterwards when she was still alive, or after she had died?

If the DNA evidence that Rudy Guede left is only from his fingers, I believe that he did assault Miss Kercher after her death.
If so, I believe that Rudy Guede might not have been the person who stabbed Meredith Kercher to her death.

If the DNA evidence that Rudy Guede left came from his penis, as LondonJohn wrote in his theory in post 10217, I believe that she was probably still alive when the sexual assault occurred and that he, Rudy Guede did stab Miss Kercher to her death.

Any opinions?
Thanks, RWVBWL

Hi, RWVBWL
Gruesome topic, isn't it?

I believe the sexual assault continued after the attacker placed Meredith on her back on the pillow. The stain on the pillow and the state of victim's undress suggests that the attack at that stage took form of penile penetration. Removing shoes and trousers is not required to assault sexually from behind or only digitally. But makes sense when the victim is on her back and unable to defend. The towels Rudy brought gain a dark and gruesome meaning - she was still alive, coughing and spraying blood. It makes sense that he covered her wounds and possibly mouth at some point, to not get blood on himself.

 

[LondonJohn]

Fulcanelli,

You have not provided a source for this statement. Moreover, it is obvious nonsense, as I have explained many times before. The DNA quantitation experiment gives the total amount of DNA, which was 1.14 pg, according to Raffaele's appeal. However, most of this is Meredith's DNA. The peak height of her profile on the clasp is roughly 1500 RFU, but Raffaele's presumed profile is only about 200 RFU. As Dr. Tagliabracci indicated, his profile is in the range of sixfold to tenfold smaller than Meredith's profile. This is below 200 pg, which by many definitions is in the LCN range.

The idea that Raffaele's appeal document is not a good source is nonsense. Lawyers may present facts in the most favorable light to their client, but as someone else pointed out, they rarely lie about the facts of the case.

Plus, as you pointed out earlier, RFU levels of peaks are not really a sensible way to define what is or is not LCN DNA - since one can multiply DNA molecules using PCR to create as high a peak as one likes. What's important is the absolute amount of DNA-containing material that one has to start with, as it is this which determines the noise ratio and the likelihood of contamination.

 

[Katody Matrass]

For sake of accuracy, there are several problems with the information you posted:

1. San Sisto is not in Perugia but a suburb. There actually is a weather reporting station in Perugia but its climate history does not go back to 2007.
2. The temperature data you provide is between the hours of about 9:00 am - 10:00 pm, so I doubt it accurately reflects the low temperature in the early morning hours.
3. The wind speeds at San Sisto and all the surrounding weather stations (airport, Umbertide) on that day are shown to be as high as 20 mph.

I think it is fair to say that the climate in Perugia on the early morning of November 2, 2007 can be categorized as "nippy" depending, of course, on your reaction to cool weather.

Hi, Jungle Jim
If you look at the tabular data, it indicates

08:27 11.3 °C

10:27 13.3 °C

I guess we can safely extrapolate the temp at 7:45 would not be below 10 °C It's not particularly chilling or arctic and in dry weather you don't even need a hat. I had around 10 °C and dry outside this morning and it's quite pleasant actually. I guess "nippy" for someone accustomed to moderate climate (Amanda was) begins around 0 °C

 

[Draca]

When was MK assaulted

Hi RoseMontague,
As a guy who had the Los Angeles Police Department investigate me and then not press charges for the crime of rape of a female "friend" BUT who had the same woman then threaten to sue me and indeed follow suit, and who was then found Not Guilty of raping my "friend" by a jury of 8 women and 4 men back in 2003, I have closely followed this particularly brutal murder and rape case that took the life of Merdith Kercher. And so my take on this case might differ than others for that reason.

I wonder what the well informed members who post here believe:

Was Meredith Kercher sexually assaulted before she was stabbed, right afterwards when she was still alive, or after she had died?


Any opinions?
Thanks, RWVBWL

Hi RWVBWL,

I posted an opinion here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6430489&postcount=10334


I'll also add in the photo below:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Amanda-Knox-and-Raffaele-Sollecito/106344459390034?v=photos&ref=ts#!/photo.php?fbid=158997610791385&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034

MK's clothes basically form a circle around where she was found. In the upper right hand corner was where her light blue jacket was found. Her shoes and sock a bit lower by the blue rug. Then her underwear, bra and jeans. Also the bra clasp and one of the socks was found underneath her. I think her clothes were removed while she was laying where she found.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Dr. Giobbi in his own words

Here is the video with an English translation. Fulcanelli, trying to discredit Crimesiders will not make Dr. Giobbi's words go away.

 

[moodstream]

I don't know where the 9 am - 10pm part comes from, but the wind speed was listed, about 7 mph.

So, give me a break. It was about 50f. She was not running down the street in a scarf over her mouth and wool hat pulled down to her eyes - in order to look inconspicuous!

 

[pilot padron]

Fulcanelli,
The idea that Raffaele's appeal document is not a good source is nonsense. Lawyers may present facts in the most favorable light to their client, but as someone else pointed out, they rarely lie about the facts of the case.

Are we referring to the actual Appeals document which would be a good source of what the Defense Lawyers intend to argue?

Or are we referring to another individual's "summary" of the document which would be a good source of little more than what the summarizer wants us to know.

This is particularly critical since some Appeals documents, as I know you know, were 'summarized" by an individual with pretty unequivocal and unadulterated beliefs in innocence

 

[Katody Matrass]

Furthermore I believe that discussing morning weather in Perugia in connection to Quintavalle's testimony is secondary.

Defenders of his credibility should tackle first the evidence that directly contradicts his words:

The testimony of the Police that questioned him in November 2007, the service record of this questioning written by inspector Volturno, the testimony of his worker, the fact that he said on TV he saw Amanda on the day after the long weekend.

It would be interesting to know on what grounds was e.g. Volturno's testimony and note written in 2007 dismissed by the court in favor of Quintavalle's much later recollection - Massei is strangely quiet about it in his motivation.

 

[Danceme]

Hey RW

I can't see any logic whatsoever in not getting it tested.

<snip>

Given that the stain on the pillowcase showed up using the crimescope as potentially being semen, and given that it appeared to have been still wet when it was smeared by one of Guede's footprints, it quite possibly is of significant importance to the investigation. My bet is that it's Guede's, and that he did have intercourse with a dying Meredith before ejaculating onto the pillow he'd placed underneath her hips. Unpleasant to have to think about, but logical and plausible.

If Rudy ejaculated onto the pillow why would he tell a story of just petting and non-intercourse sex which he says they both stopped when no one had a condom. Denying the whole sex/ejaculation part would be simply stupid if he knew he'd left his semen on a pillow which he left underneath Meredith's body. He certainly wouldn't be banking on them not finding it at the time. That in itself makes me think it's not his, but in any case I hope they test it.

Also, did the defense not have this pillowcase in their possession at one time, to photograph it under the crimescope? and if so, why couldn't they have it tested then?

Something I'm not clear on, does any testing have to be approved by the court therefore the defense could not have it done, or can either side request it and get the testing performed?

 

[Draca]

Towels

Hi, RWVBWL
Gruesome topic, isn't it?
The towels Rudy brought gain a dark and gruesome meaning - she was still alive, coughing and spraying blood. It makes sense that he covered her wounds and possibly mouth at some point, to not get blood on himself.

Katody,

Very good point. I think this is the best answer to why Rudy would get towels if he wasn't doing so to help MK, but actually went on to sexually assault her. That point cleared up a lot up for me.

 

[Mary_H]

Hi Rose

Without lengthy contrary comment on Ms Dempsey, (who started her writing career as a Food Blogger from Seattle), may I just point out that among others I hold Barbie Nadeau and Andrea Vogt in the same high esteem that "you and others" hold Ms Dempsey.
Admittedly, the resultant 2 books as well as Ms Vogt on Daily Beast differ on many things under discussion here

Additionally, neither required employment of a freelance interpreter assistant as did Ms Dempsey to assist their writings and/ortrial attendance.
REF: Your dime, read about Freelancer Giulia Alagna's employment and activities.
Based on your excellent recall of factual matter, I assume you may already be familiar with Ms Alagna's relation to Ms Dempsey as well as CBS.

Hi pilot. Your statement that Candace Dempsey started her career as a food blogger is not accurate. Here is some more information about Candace's career: http://candacedempsey.com/6.html

I have always been curious about the guilters' use of the title, "food blogger" as an apparently derogatory term. One reason it strikes me as odd is that Barbie Nadeau is a travel blogger, or at least she has been. As far as I can see, neither of these activities is deserving of derision, nor do they disqualify the authors from writing about the subject at hand.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The appeal is what I cited before

Are we referring to the actual Appeals document which would be a good source of what the Defense Lawyers intend to argue?

Or are we referring to another individual's "summary" of the document which would be a good source of little more than what the summarizer wants us to know.

This is particularly critical since some Appeals documents, as I know you know, were 'summarized" by an individual with pretty unequivocal and unadulterated beliefs in innocence

Pilot Padron,

I provided the page number from Raffaele's appeal (p. 142) in my post on the subject of erroneously referring to Raffaele's putative profile as abundant.

 

[Draca]

Semen stain

If Rudy ejaculated onto the pillow why would he tell a story of just petting and non-intercourse sex which he says they both stopped when no one had a condom. Denying the whole sex/ejaculation part would be simply stupid if he knew he'd left his semen on a pillow which he left underneath Meredith's body.

Great question. The only reasonable explanation he could give is that they had sex and he pulled out to ejaculate.

Believable that they didn't test the stain, but only because of seeing so many other mistakes they made.

 

[Jungle Jim]

I don't know where the 9 am - 10pm part comes from, but the wind speed was listed, about 7 mph.

So, give me a break. It was about 50f. She was not running down the street in a scarf over her mouth and wool hat pulled down to her eyes - in order to look inconspicuous!

It comes from the link you provided. You might have noticed it if you looked at the graph and table on that page.

Neither I, nor you, know what Amanda was wearing that morning.