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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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treehorn said:
a few Q's for the doctor about the time lag studies mentioned:

"small-to-moderate" seems a rather imprecise qualitative term - why aren't the studies cited using quantitative terms?

is the qualitative description of the size of the meal determined relative to the size of the subject?
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Here is the link to the motivations:

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=259

Once you download the document, you can do a word search (upper right) for the word "meal" and it will give you the information you're looking for. The meal and the autopsy reports are discussed on several pages.

Also, you can do a word search for DNA or anything you want more information about.
 
treehorn said:
i don't mean any offense, you're obviously a doctor, possibly a even a specialist, but how could anyone reasonably claim to know "ALL the scientific/ medical literature and accumulated knowledge" in respect of any phenomenon/ issue/ question/ field/ subfield?
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In the same way as I know that the Earth revolves around the Sun, and not the other way around.
 
halides1 said:
I spoke for a second time to an anesthesiologist about stomach contents. He said that in elective surgery, they ask people not to eat six hours before surgery. This is because the relaxation of the muscle at the near end of the stomach by an anesthetic could allow stomach contents to burn the lungs, etc. I surmise that the six hour period is chosen to be on the long side, so that large or fat-laden meals will also clear.

He also put the odds of no contents leaving the stomach in five hours as zero. He noted many factors that might affect the speed of clearance, including neural abnormalities, alcohol, pregnancy, etc.
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According to the physician, we should never find all consumed food stuffs still in the stomach five hours after what exactly? Five hours after beginning the eating---about 6:00 PM---or five hours after the eating stopped, about 8:00 PM? In the former case five hours later would be 11:00 PM, in the latter case 1:00 AM.

It appears from the physician's directive, "Not to eat six hours before surgery"---and that means one is to eat nothing during this interval--- that the physician is referring to the latter state-of-affairs. In which case, the conclusion seems irrelevant. No one has argued that Meredith died---or her "terror" began---at 1:00 AM. Maybe you could clarify this matter Halides.

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Mary_H said:
How about "stomach contents?" Look within the past two months.




I haven't been following these discussions, but I believe that information is from Massei's motivations report.




LondonJohn doesn't need my help and he is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the point he was trying to make in the statement you're responding to was that it would be nearly, if not completely, impossible to find any literature that denies "that a meal consumed between around 18.30 and 19.00 will not - under ANY circumstances - still be entirely within the stomach beyond 22.00."

He doesn't have to have read all the available literature to make that statement, he only has to be able to understand the concepts, based on the results of research. For example, all the research and all the literature state that the earth is round. Therefore, it is safe to say (quoting and paraphrasing LondonJohn) that "I have near certainty (backed up with my own knowledge and experience in this area, and ALL the scientific/medical literature and accumulated knowledge)" that the earth is round.

In my opinion, the following is a good overview of LondonJohn's position on the discussion that has taken place here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6400535&postcount=8594
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You have represented my position exactly! There is nothing in the current medical and scientific knowledge universe to indicate a situation where a meal would still be entirely within the stomach five hours after ingestion.

It's absolutely not necessary for me to be a gastroenterology consultant or a research scientist in the relevant field in order to know this, and I am neither. However, I have a close knowledge of the workings of the digestive system, and have regular contact with two consultant surgeons (one gastro and one colorectal), a professor physician of gastroenterology, and a research fellow working for the Wellcome Foundation. I know a lot about the workings of the whole gastro-intestinal system, and I am very certain of my ground in the area of stomach emptying dynamics.

Again, as I've said before, I am perfectly willing to be corrected if someone can find a credible piece of research (or even anecdotal evidence from a credible source) which cites any adult human with a T(lag) of over 4.5 hours. Similarly, if someone can present a cite from a credible source which shows that the Sun revolves around the Earth, then I'm perfectly willing to reconsider my current opinion on that subject as well......
 
Fine said:
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According to the physician, we should never find all consumed food stuffs still in the stomach five hours after what exactly? Five hours after beginning the eating---about 6:00 PM---or five hours after the eating stopped, about 8:00 PM? In the former case five hours later would be 11:00 PM, in the latter case 1:00 AM.

It appears from the physician's directive, "Not to eat six hours before surgery"---and that means one is to eat nothing during this interval--- that the physician is referring to the latter state-of-affairs. In which case, the conclusion seems irrelevant. No one has argued that Meredith died---or her "terror" began---at 1:00 AM. Maybe you could clarify this matter Halides.

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Things really are getting desperate.....

The stomach TOTAL EMPTYING time is influenced by the latest time of ingestion. T(lag) is influenced by the beginning time of ingestion.

The medical advice to not eat six hours before an operation is specifically aimed at ensuring that the stomach has totally emptied by the time the general anaesthetic is administered. This clearly implies that the stomach is almost certain to have completely emptied six hours after the final food entered it.

In contrast, T(lag) is calculated from the start of ingestion of the meal, since this is when the first food starts to get broken down by the stomach acids and enzymes. Whether a meal lasts 5 minutes or two hours, the clock starts when the meal is started.
 
treehorn said:
who but a medical doctor would/ could claim to have assimilated "ALL the scientific/ medical literature and accumulated knowledge" vis-a-vis 'time lag'?!

a PhD in Physiology?

but, even then, they'd likely have a M.D. as well...

i'm stumped
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So are you an MD?
 
Justinian2 said:
That's funny.

The possibility of the guilt/involvement of a person involved in the prosecution/investigation has not eluded my keen mind.
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I think the more probable possibility is one of a cover up. The three that have been discussed here and elsewhere is the possibility of Rudy as a police informant, the possibility of Stefanoni holding back possibly exculpatory information, or that a taped interrogation was suddenly nonexistent.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
Here are photos of the bloodstain above the bed
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Thanks Charlie. The photo is much clearer than the video but now I'm not exactly sure what to make of this stain.

It looks like a surface that was saturated with blood was violently compressed against the wall with initial contact at the bottom causing the blood to squirt upward. This is not the result of an initial head injury as I thought earlier because blood has to already be on the outside surface. It's perhaps where blood had flowed onto Meredith's shoulder or arm from an initial minor cut

There are also a couple of very faint secondary transfer marks to the left and down from this stain.

There was a much more dynamic battle that took place in this room than Mignini tries to make us believe with his sex games gone wrong story.
 
loverofzion said:
Sorry Rose there were two different knives used on Meredith.

Unless Rudy had 4 hands the lone wolf theory is impossible.
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The prosecution conspiracy theory requires two different knives. The kitchen knife could not have made two of the wounds on Meredith's neck or the imprint on the bed.

The Rudy lone wolf theory only requires a single knife to create all three wounds on Meredith's neck and the bloody imprint on the bed.

A month before the murder, Rudy broke into Christian Tramontano's home and threatened him with a knife. Perhaps it's time to ask Rudy what happened to that knife.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
The lamp between the bed and the nightstand was on the floor, unplugged, with the cord wrapped around the stand
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Look again Charlie. In the photo you just posted the lamp cord is plugged into the power strip which appears to be plugged into the wall behind the bed. I believe there may be a later photo showing the lamp as you described after the investigators got through tossing the room.


My thought is that Meredith could have used the lamps earlier to photograph her vampire costume.
http://video.about.com/desktopvideo/Lighting--Effect-of-Direction.htm
4. Light from below is a stylized choice. Often used in horror and suspense films for it eerie effect.
You can achieve this setup by placing your source under the level of your subjects shoulders. For better results with this setup, place your light close to the subject, as its dramatic tone usually calls for strong shadows.​

The proof of this would be in her original photographs if they can be recovered.
 
Not necessarily Rudy though.
I wonder if by now the police have traced and questioned Aviello's brother, and taken DNA samples,etc.
And done the same with the owner of the white car who apparently lived in Corsa Garibaldi.
Then compared these with those samples the forensics team have been unable to identify in Meredith's room.
 
Dan O. said:
Look again Charlie. In the photo you just posted the lamp cord is plugged into the power strip which appears to be plugged into the wall behind the bed. I believe there may be a later photo showing the lamp as you described after the investigators got through tossing the room.


My thought is that Meredith could have used the lamps earlier to photograph her vampire costume.
http://video.about.com/desktopvideo/Lighting--Effect-of-Direction.htm
4. Light from below is a stylized choice. Often used in horror and suspense films for it eerie effect.
You can achieve this setup by placing your source under the level of your subjects shoulders. For better results with this setup, place your light close to the subject, as its dramatic tone usually calls for strong shadows.​

The proof of this would be in her original photographs if they can be recovered.
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The vampire costuem was from the night before tghe murder.
It is hihgly unlikely that Amanda would have left the lamp that she needed to see at night in Meredith's room for 2 days.

The probable scenario is that AK and RS used it to search carefully on the floor during the clean up.
It has been proposed that Meredith pulled an earring out of Ak's ear, hence her blood, and she was scrambling on the floor with the lamp to search for it.

But you can alays dream up more fantastical ones.
 
Kestrel said:
The prosecution conspiracy theory requires two different knives. The kitchen knife could not have made two of the wounds on Meredith's neck or the imprint on the bed.

The Rudy lone wolf theory only requires a single knife to create all three wounds on Meredith's neck and the bloody imprint on the bed.

A month before the murder, Rudy broke into Christian Tramontano's home and threatened him with a knife. Perhaps it's time to ask Rudy what happened to that knife.
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Good piece of evidence. So good that I would like to know the source, if you would be so kind.

The people that would collaborate together on murder, like the Manson family or the terrorists, all live together in a clan, cult or group of some type for years. Guede, AK, and RS didn't even know each other (except for seeing each other once or twice). The only other type of collusion is for insurance money or inheritance. This definitely wasn't the case here.

My opinion: The given profiles don't constitute proof. However, neither does the prosecution's theory of collusion.
 
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