Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[treehorn]

Universities are chock-full of people who know "ALL the scientific/ medical literature and accumulated knowledge" in respect of their specific phenomenon/ issue/ question/ field/subfield of choice. That's the whole point of a university. You can't do research unless you get (and stay) up to date on knowledge in the field.

(As for how they do it, searchable databases and reading relevant periodicals are the usual means).

it seems you are presuming that I am not educated and, as a result, completely unfamiliar with the rather mundane notion that academics and professionals contribute to, and consult peer-reviewed journals, texts, etc. on a regular basis

alas, I don't think any self-respecting academic/ professional would be so unreasonable as to claim to know "ALL the scientific/ medical literature and accumulated knowledge" in their particular field

are you actually suggesting that it's possible?!

(somehow, i think i've misinterpreted your post)

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I don't know what different people where doing exactly and when. This doesn't matter.
I would be almost certain that the gripping of her mouth stopped only by the moment she was stabbed, because it shows her attempt to scream, and I am sure this grabbing lasted some time, because the murderer evidently had very strong reasons to cover her mouth with force, strong reasons are persistent, they don't last just 20 seconds.
The problem is, too many things have to occur like a coincidence in order to have this picture includings a person trying to scream who doesn't, an attacker whith only one free hand and a weapon, an undressing of the victim followed/including a sexual manipulation, so a forced opening of more than one piece of cloths, evidence of prolonged holding of her hands and no sign of contact of her hands with the murderer as shown by the absence organic matter under her nails (don't miss this detail) with the perfect state of her nails, no signs of struggle/attempt to escape in the room, a stabbing on two different sides with change of position/orientation of the blade. Bear in mind that this is a sexual murder: it should be thought as the development of a botched sexual assault.
If you like, you can put in the picture the aftermath: three towels brought in the room to soak up the blood, the body moved and covered after some time, both cell phones stolen (who knew Meredith possessed two cell phones?), an isolated bloody mat in the bathroom lying on a clean floor, a 26 centimentres blood smearing on the bathroom door (residual of a cleaning), a murderer (Rudy) with several cuts on his hands, who doesn't leave a single drop of his blood in the bathroom where he washes his hands, and no prints on the duvet he uses to cover the body ...

Obviously we are always talking of small sectors of the evidence, pieces of the whole puzzle.

That's the problem alright. You are formulating an opinion without having the facts. I can tell you what the evidence shows: the killer threw Meredith to the floor, so she was face down on her hands and knees in front of her wardrobe, with him behind and on top of her, wielding a knife in his right hand and holding his left hand over her face to control her and to keep her from screaming. He stabbed her in the right side of her throat, and then inflicted a large, slashing wound by stabbing her in the left side of her throat and pulling the blade toward him, i.e., up and to the right. He also cut the backstrap on her bra. When she ceased to struggle, he rolled her on her back. Her shirt and her bra were pushed up above her breasts when she gasped her dying breaths, which explains the fine spattering of round blood drops on her breasts and torso.

Then he moved her a few feet to the position where she was found. He put a pillow under her buttocks. He cut her bra away and left it at her feet. He removed her pants and underwear and assaulted her sexually. When he was finished with that, he went into the bathroom and cleaned himself up, using the bidet as a fountain and removing his right shoe at some point, which is when he left his bare footprint on the mat.

After he had cleaned himself up, he went back into her room, pulled the quilt off the bed, and spread it over her. He sat on the edge of the bed with the bloody knife and went through her purse. Then he walked out of the room, locked the door behind him, and left a trail of shoe prints starting in her room and running down the corridor toward the exit, with each successive step becoming fainter.

That is what really happened to Meredith Kercher. The rest is a fairy tale.

 

[treehorn]

Absolutely nothing in the medical literature supports the idea that t(lag) can be five hours in a normal, healthy young woman eating a small-to-moderate sized meal of pizza with no alcohol, stress or other known confounding factors, as far as anyone here has been able to tell. So he could know nothing else about the topic at all and still be correct in that particular statement.

this is an interesting idea with interesting implications

 

[lane99]

Where did I say that?
What I said is different: I said would consider them guilty even if it were proved that the attack occurred exactly at 21:10.

You indicated it in a reply to a previous question I had asked you. Post 8285, to be exact. Nevertheless, I quite understand if you'd like to retract that postion now.

Particularly since the original rationale- implying as it did that you can murder somebody who is already dead- seemed excessively, if not quite "Machiavellian", then certainly draconian and inimical to true justice.

So, I now take it that you do in fact accept that if both were not there when Miss Kercher was attacked, then both can not be guilty of her murder. And we agree on that point.

But we apparently disagree that they have an alibi that can place them at other than the crime scene at 21:10. As it is my understanding there is good evidence to support their claim that they were at the boyfriend's home- and not the location where the murder took place- at 21:10.

 

[lane99]

What is this "AAH" folder all about? An alternative thread for posting? Or...?

 

[treehorn]

a few Q's for the doctor about the time lag studies mentioned:

"small-to-moderate" seems a rather imprecise qualitative term - why aren't the studies cited using quantitative terms?

is the qualitative description of the size of the meal determined relative to the size of the subject?

 

[treehorn]

Treehorn,

They did not obtain DNA reference samples from Laura or Filomena. They also failed to obtain reference footprints from them. I do not know why... There are some comments about this from April or May.

forgot to thank you for the info - I'll go check April/ May

BTW is there any way to confirm whether (and how many) unidentified DNA traces were picked up by the CSI team?

 

[Mary_H]

What is this "AAH" folder all about? An alternative thread for posting? Or...?

AAH stands for "Abandon All Hope." It is a thread where the moderators put all the comments they have deleted from here, for one reason or another.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184676

 

[treehorn]

AAH stands for "Abandon All Hope." It is a thread where the moderators put all the comments they have deleted from here, for one reason or another.

interesting link!

interesting consequence!

it's as though the mods want to shame you/ haunt you for sins past

i hope i don't end up there!

i'd hate to see my weak moments/ petty sentiments on display like that!

how long do those comments stay up?!

 

[Draca]

Mark on wall above Meredith's bed

Here are photos of the bloodstain above the bed:

friendsofamanda.org/wall_above_bed.jpg[/url]
friendsofamanda.org/stain_above_bed_detail.jpg[/url]

Also, there was a thin crust of dried blood covering the fingers of Meredith's right hand.

Thanks Charlie and Dan O.

I appreciate the close up photo. It seems clear the struggle started near the bed. Is that the book she borrowed on the bed?

In the stain of fingers on the wall between the bed and nightstand (the one used on tabloid pamphlet Angel Face), at what point do you think those marks were made? If the struggle started by the bed and moved across the room to the wardrobe. Where would Meredith have been bleeding that much from before the struggle even moved across the room. Could the blood have come from her head injury from being slammed into the wall above the bed?

 

[Mary_H]

AAH stands for "Abandon All Hope." It is a thread where the moderators put all the comments they have deleted from here, for one reason or another.

interesting link!

interesting consequence!

it's as though the mods want to shame you/ haunt you for sins past

i hope i don't end up there!

i'd hate to see my weak moments/ petty sentiments on display like that!

how long do those comments stay up?!

I'm not sure, treehorn. That thread started in September and we have had plenty of posts either deleted or moved to other threads before that. There are some threads that are off-topic, but preserved so that if anyone wants to discuss the off-topic topic (e.g., other websites), they can go there and continue the discussion.

It's not all punitive. Sometimes someone will break the rules, so their comment gets moved, and then the comments of anyone who responded to the rule-breaking comment will get moved, too.

 

[Antony]

(msg #9294, p233)
Absolutely. I've almost given up trying to fight "counter-arguments" in this area. It truly is not dissimilar to trying to catch an eel with your bare hands. Like you, I have near certainty (backed up with my own knowledge and experience in this area, and ALL the scientific/medical literature and accumulated knowledge) that a meal consumed between around 18.30 and 19.00 will not - under ANY circumstances - still be entirely within the stomach beyond 22.00.

It's frustrating, and an indication that the guilter thesis is based on an ideology and not on facts. The straw that they cling to apparently is one source that says something like "TOD based on stomach contents is too imprecise to be useful".

Presumably in most cases a 2-3 hour window is too imprecise. But in guilter doctrine, "too imprecise" has become "too unreliable", and the conclusion they draw is that "nothing can be deduced from stomach contents".

 

[loverofzion]

i don't mean any offense, you're obviously a doctor, possibly a even a specialist, but how could anyone reasonably claim to know "ALL the scientific/ medical literature and accumulated knowledge" in respect of any phenomenon/ issue/ question/ field/ subfield?

He's no doctor!

 

[Draca]

Lamps

Everybody keeps asking me for citations. Do you think I'm lying about this stuff?

I thought I already replied earlier. This mark is clearly visible in the crime scene video of Nov. 3rd. at time mark 12:45:20 just before it gets obliterated. Stills from the video were originally posted on FOA as sample 176 but that sample was in Filomena's room and the link to the stills is now dead. The mark is mentioned in Micheli: "On the left wall above the bed, mt. The floor and 0.61 meters. 2.28 rear wall, is a small blood stain, irregular in shape, the size of cm. Long and 3 cm. 1 wide, with striations parallel needle at the top and right eye (..)." (google translated)

If there isn't a detail photo, Charlie could probably pull a good image of this spot from the Spheron imagery. It's on the wall that separates Amanda's and Meredith's rooms right above the bed on the end closest to the door.

There was a text description of this mark that mentioned the hair impression though I'm not sure if it was talking about hair like filaments of the splatter or an impression of hair made in the stain. I don't think it was actual hair left behind.


My take on the lamps is that they may be unassociated with the crime. The original of the photo of Meredith with the vampire makeup may shed more light on this.

Thanks Dan O.,

Charlie did get the close up. I didn't know where to see that exact video.

My take on the lamps is they were both affected by the crime scene. I think Meredith's was knocked off her bedside table when the struggle around the bed took place. The finger prints on the wall would have been just about above the lamp. The lamp is found on the floor by the bed.

I think Rudy Guede got Amanda's lamp to look for the keys. Perhaps stepping in blood while looking for the keys so that he could leave the cottage. Her lamp is found knocked over at the end of the bed and the cord reaching to the plug in by the door.

Is there any data on the testing of the beige cloth purse?

 

[loverofzion]

You indicated it in a reply to a previous question I had asked you. Post 8285, to be exact. Nevertheless, I quite understand if you'd like to retract that postion now.

Particularly since the original rationale- implying as it did that you can murder somebody who is already dead- seemed excessively, if not quite "Machiavellian", then certainly draconian and inimical to true justice.

So, I now take it that you do in fact accept that if both were not there when Miss Kercher was attacked, then both can not be guilty of her murder. And we agree on that point.

But we apparently disagree that they have an alibi that can place them at other than the crime scene at 21:10. As it is my understanding there is good evidence to support their claim that they were at the boyfriend's home- and not the location where the murder took place- at 21:10.

What might that good evidence be?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

a few Q's for the doctor about the time lag studies mentioned:

"small-to-moderate" seems a rather imprecise qualitative term - why aren't the studies cited using quantitative terms?

If you read the studies that have been linked to in the past with regard to this issue, the individual studies do indeed use precisely quantified amounts of food and drink.

The "small-to-moderate" statement is reflective of our synthesis of the available literature, studying a variety of meals and their t(lag) distributions, which has led us to the conclusion that unless we are talking about a very heavy meal (possibly with other relevant factors like gastrointestinal pathology or heavy alcohol consumption) a t(lag) of five hours is quite absurd.

it seems you are presuming that I am not educated and, as a result, completely unfamiliar with the rather mundane notion that academics and professionals contribute to, and consult peer-reviewed journals, texts, etc. on a regular basis

alas, I don't think any self-respecting academic/ professional would be so unreasonable as to claim to know "ALL the scientific/ medical literature and accumulated knowledge" in their particular field

On the contrary, within a narrow area of specialisation it's your job to have read and understood everything relevant that gets published. That doesn't mean anyone knows everything there is to know about chemistry in general, but it does mean that anyone working on (for example) adenovirus therapy for cystic fibrosis should know everything that has ever been published on the topic of adenovirus therapy for cystic fibrosis.

are you actually suggesting that it's possible?!

(somehow, i think i've misinterpreted your post)

I'm not merely suggesting that it's possible, I'm stating clearly that it's everyday.

That said, until LondonJohn clarifies his statement otherwise I interpret it to mean merely that absolutely every bit of literature or expert opinion anyone has been able to lay their hands on supports the conclusion that it is astronomically unlikely that Meredith died at 23:30, and that the most probable time of death is 21:05 to 21:15. I don't take his statement to mean that he is claiming personal knowledge of everything in the literature.

 

[treehorn]

If you read the studies that have been linked to in the past with regard to this issue, the individual studies do indeed use precisely quantified amounts of food and drink.

it's a long thread - someone, please, throw me a bone - a link, a search term, a month, something (i'd like to get a look at these studies)

... "small-to-moderate" statement is reflective of our synthesis of the available literature, studying a variety of meals and their t(lag) distributions, which has led us to the conclusion that unless we are talking about a very heavy meal (possibly with other relevant factors like gastrointestinal pathology or heavy alcohol consumption) a t(lag) of five hours is quite absurd.

on what basis did you estimate/ characterize the size of MK's meal?

... the contrary, within a narrow area of specialisation it's your job to have read and understood everything relevant that gets published. That doesn't mean anyone knows everything there is to know about chemistry in general, but it does mean that anyone working on (for example) adenovirus therapy for cystic fibrosis should know everything that has ever been published on the topic of adenovirus therapy for cystic fibrosis.

softening the assertion via the qualifiers, "within a NARROW area" and "everything RELEVANT," makes it ever so much more realistic/ palatable

i literally wouldn't be able to sleep, let alone practice my profession for so much as a nanosecond if i were required to assimilate each and every text, journal article, comment, working paper, etc., pertaining to my field, the very moment they became available!

 

[treehorn]

He's no doctor!

who but a medical doctor would/ could claim to have assimilated "ALL the scientific/ medical literature and accumulated knowledge" vis-a-vis 'time lag'?!

a PhD in Physiology?

but, even then, they'd likely have a M.D. as well...

i'm stumped

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Thanks Dan O.,

Charlie did get the close up. I didn't know where to see that exact video.

My take on the lamps is they were both affected by the crime scene. I think Meredith's was knocked off her bedside table when the struggle around the bed took place. The finger prints on the wall would have been just about above the lamp. The lamp is found on the floor by the bed.

I think Rudy Guede got Amanda's lamp to look for the keys. Perhaps stepping in blood while looking for the keys so that he could leave the cottage. Her lamp is found knocked over at the end of the bed and the cord reaching to the plug in by the door.

Is there any data on the testing of the beige cloth purse?

The lamp between the bed and the nightstand was on the floor, unplugged, with the cord wrapped around the stand, which to me suggests it was not working properly. The desk lamp from Amanda's room was found behind Meredith's door. My best guess is that Meredith borrowed it because her lamp wasn't working, it was on her desk, and it got knocked to the floor during the struggle. It ended up inside the arc of the doorway, so it was pushed behind the door, and the plug was pulled from the wall socket, when the door was broken down the next day.

To the best of my knowledge, no forensic tests were performed on the cloth bag.

 

[Mary_H]

it's a long thread - someone, please, throw me a bone - a link, a search term, a month, something (i'd like to get a look at these studies)

How about "stomach contents?" Look within the past two months.

on what basis did you estimate/ characterize the size of MK's meal?

I haven't been following these discussions, but I believe that information is from Massei's motivations report.

softening the assertion via the qualifiers, "within a NARROW area" and "everything RELEVANT," makes it ever so much more realistic/ palatable

i literally wouldn't be able to sleep, let alone practice my profession for so much as a nanosecond if i were required to assimilate each and every text, journal article, comment, working paper, etc., pertaining to my field, the very moment they became available!

LondonJohn doesn't need my help and he is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the point he was trying to make in the statement you're responding to was that it would be nearly, if not completely, impossible to find any literature that denies "that a meal consumed between around 18.30 and 19.00 will not - under ANY circumstances - still be entirely within the stomach beyond 22.00."

He doesn't have to have read all the available literature to make that statement, he only has to be able to understand the concepts, based on the results of research. For example, all the research and all the literature state that the earth is round. Therefore, it is safe to say (quoting and paraphrasing LondonJohn) that "I have near certainty (backed up with my own knowledge and experience in this area, and ALL the scientific/medical literature and accumulated knowledge)" that the earth is round.

In my opinion, the following is a good overview of LondonJohn's position on the discussion that has taken place here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6400535&postcount=8594