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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Magister said:
It is known that Meredith put up a struggle by the light defensive wounds she received.
But IF it was a lone wolf attacker one would expect physical evidence of a desperate fight, certainly in the early stages, before she was overpowered.
Meredith was not tied up nor knocked unconscious.
I believe the lone wolf scenario to be the weakest link in the case of the Innocentisti .
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I would expect such evidence if Rudy was not armed with a knife. I think the "fight" was pretty much over before it barely began.
 
Machiavelli said:
Crhis what are you talking about. Do you know anything about those "styles of law"?

Italy was the first region where death penalty was abolished in modern history, in the years ariund 1790's. Italy's criminal codes have been a basis in some parts of judicial culture in the western civilization, like in Australia:

[/I]
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The death penalty in Italy for all crimes was abolished in 1994.
 
hi, all

this is my first JREF post

I just had to pick your forum: 216,260 views!!!

looks like you've got a good spat going here, and I'd be in over my head in a hurry if I tried jumping in on, say, the discussion about prime numbers, so here goes nothing
 
Chris C said:
how many bruises prior to the 2 stab wounds and the slashing wound would u consider light defensive wounds?
also rudy could have had an accomplice, we don't know because they didn't bother getting control dna samples from everyone or testing a semen stain.
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If it was Rudy and he had an accomplice then it is not a lone wolf attack.
I agree those tests were/are absolutely crucial.
 
Chris C said:
...also rudy could have had an accomplice, we don't know because they didn't bother getting control dna samples from everyone or testing a semen stain.
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is it true the police did not get "control samples"?

why on earth?

who should have been used as a control (aside from the other roommates)? did they all have boyfriends?

as for the "semen stain", I can't imagine any reason why the police would not test such a stain

strange that

but how do you/ they know it's "semen" if it wasn't tested? or are you saying it was identified as semen, but not subjected to further testing?

added a question
 
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Machiavelli said:
Magster I think you are not very strong on the subject
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I believe you were referring to pre- unification Italy?
I note that the Grand Duchy of Tuscany abolished the death penalty in 1786.
I was of course referring to the modern state of Italy.
 
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Magister said:
If it was Rudy and he had an accomplice then it is not a lone wolf attack.
I agree those tests were/are absolutely crucial.
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do you know why those 'controls' were not taken?

I have no idea what standard police protocol is in this regard

when a rental home with multiple occupants becomes a crime scene, it must be tough to figure out how far to go with controls

but surely the 2 Italian roommates were controls, no?

did they both have boyfriends?

I'd go that far, at a minimum
 
RoseMontague said:
(...) When exactly were both arms held by two different people?
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I don't know what different people where doing exactly and when. This doesn't matter.
I would be almost certain that the gripping of her mouth stopped only by the moment she was stabbed, because it shows her attempt to scream, and I am sure this grabbing lasted some time, because the murderer evidently had very strong reasons to cover her mouth with force, strong reasons are persistent, they don't last just 20 seconds.
The problem is, too many things have to occur like a coincidence in order to have this picture includings a person trying to scream who doesn't, an attacker whith only one free hand and a weapon, an undressing of the victim followed/including a sexual manipulation, so a forced opening of more than one piece of cloths, evidence of prolonged holding of her hands and no sign of contact of her hands with the murderer as shown by the absence organic matter under her nails (don't miss this detail) with the perfect state of her nails, no signs of struggle/attempt to escape in the room, a stabbing on two different sides with change of position/orientation of the blade. Bear in mind that this is a sexual murder: it should be thought as the development of a botched sexual assault.
If you like, you can put in the picture the aftermath: three towels brought in the room to soak up the blood, the body moved and covered after some time, both cell phones stolen (who knew Meredith possessed two cell phones?), an isolated bloody mat in the bathroom lying on a clean floor, a 26 centimentres blood smearing on the bathroom door (residual of a cleaning), a murderer (Rudy) with several cuts on his hands, who doesn't leave a single drop of his blood in the bathroom where he washes his hands, and no prints on the duvet he uses to cover the body ...

Obviously we are always talking of small sectors of the evidence, pieces of the whole puzzle.
 
Magister said:
I believe you were referring to the pre- unification of Italy?
I note that the Grand Duchy of Tuscany abolished the death penalty in 1786.
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After Tuscany, the Republic of Venice in 1797.
The first unified Italy's code abolished the dp in 1889. Then was re-entered by fascism between years 1930-1946. Abolished by constitution in 1946.
The military penal code of war still had the death penalty for crimes like war atrocities or high treason, abolished in 1994. But this penal code existed only theoretically. This only could be applied to militaries, and only in times of war in combat areas, so never enetred into force during in this time.
 
LondonJohn said:
...Like you, I have near certainty (backed up with my own knowledge and experience in this area, and ALL the scientific/medical literature and accumulated knowledge) that a meal consumed between around 18.30 and 19.00 will not - under ANY circumstances - still be entirely within the stomach beyond 22.00.
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i don't mean any offense, you're obviously a doctor, possibly a even a specialist, but how could anyone reasonably claim to know "ALL the scientific/ medical literature and accumulated knowledge" in respect of any phenomenon/ issue/ question/ field/ subfield?
 
Machiavelli said:
After Tuscany, the Republic of Venice in 1797.
The first unified Italy's code abolished the dp in 1889. Then was re-entered by fascism between years 1930-1946. Abolished by constitution in 1946.
The military penal code of war still had the death penalty for crimes like war atrocities or high treason, abolished in 1994. But this penal code existed only theoretically. This only could be applied to militaries, and only in times of war in combat areas, so never enetred into force during in this time.
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Thank you for confirming the date of 1994 "for all crimes" as I had written.
 
Magister said:
Thank you for confirming the date of 1994 "for all crimes" as I had written.
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Magister, actually I am saying this is false and misleading. Why then not openly state that no crime was punishable with the death penalty from 1946 to 1994?
If no citizen was ever subject to this code since it never entered into force (and only applied to militaries) how could you imply that some crimes carried death penalty until 1994? What you say maintains that "some crimes" could be punished with the death penalty, while it is not true: they could not, because that penal code - albeit provided by the constitution until 1994 - was never valid during the time of existence of those articles.
 
things done and left undone

treehorn said:
is it true the police did not get "control samples"?

why on earth?

who should have been used as a control (aside from the other roommates)? did they all have boyfriends?

as for the "semen stain", I can't imagine any reason why the police would not test such a stain

strange that

but how do you/ they know it's "semen" if it wasn't tested? or are you saying it was identified as semen, but not subjected to further testing?

added a question
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Treehorn,

They did not obtain DNA reference samples from Laura or Filomena. They also failed to obtain reference footprints from them. I do not know why. The putative semen stain was revealed with a crimescope light, IIRC. There are some comments about this from April or May.
 
RoseMontague said:
Is this then the origin of your posting name?
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That's it!

The Justinian Maximum was to "Do no harm" and "Give everyone his due".
Very succinctly stated, that's justice in a nutshell. Except for law that enforces government.

There might be a tad more - it's in Wikipedia.
 
halides1 said:
Treehorn,

They did not obtain DNA reference samples from Laura or Filomena. They also failed to obtain reference footprints from them. I do not know why. The putative semen stain was revealed with a crimescope light, IIRC. There are some comments about this from April or May.
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i know nothing about crimescopes (i suppose it's what you see the cops using in the opening scene of the movie 'basic instinct' / sort of a blue phosphorescent glow when a stain is hit with a special light and viewed through a visor of some kind?)

what else could the stain be?

does saliva or mucus give a positive result as well?

what can give false positives?
 
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treehorn said:
i don't mean any offense, you're obviously a doctor, possibly a even a specialist, but how could anyone reasonably claim to know "ALL the scientific/ medical literature and accumulated knowledge" in respect of any phenomenon/ issue/ question/ field/ subfield?
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I am not making any factual claims about LondonJohn's background or qualifications, but anyone studying a subject past the Honours level is expected to be up to date on the current state of knowledge with regard to their topic.

Universities are chock-full of people who know "ALL the scientific/ medical literature and accumulated knowledge" in respect of their specific phenomenon/ issue/ question/ field/subfield of choice. That's the whole point of a university. You can't do research unless you get (and stay) up to date on knowledge in the field.

(As for how they do it, searchable databases and reading relevant periodicals are the usual means).

That said, even if LondonJohn doesn't have an academic interest in the specific topic, his statement it still factually correct as far as any of us have been able to ascertain. Absolutely nothing in the medical literature supports the idea that t(lag) can be five hours in a normal, healthy young woman eating a small-to-moderate sized meal of pizza with no alcohol, stress or other known confounding factors, as far as anyone here has been able to tell. So he could know nothing else about the topic at all and still be correct in that particular statement.
 
Here are photos of the bloodstain above the bed:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/wall_above_bed.jpg
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/stain_above_bed_detail.jpg

Here is a hi-res photo of the cleaning cupboard:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/cottage_cleaning_supplies_hi_res.jpg

Regarding Nadeau's description of how Meredith's body was found, it is not accurate. Meredith's left hand was not suspended in air. Her arm was bent, such that her left hand was near her face, as Nadeau says, but it was resting on a boot that was on the floor between her head and the wardrobe.

Also, there was a thin crust of dried blood covering the fingers of Meredith's right hand.
 
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