Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[RoboTimbo]

Every time I leave for a few days these kind of posts pop up. I think they hurt the image of skeptics more than anything I could ever say.

No, these kinds of posts pop up even when you are here. If you want to make the skeptics' image be totally trashed, post some real, objective, compelling (non-fallacious) evidence that the NT writers told the truth.

That would show them, if you were to ever do that.

 

[joobz]

I think they hurt the image of skeptics more than anything I could ever say.

You're silly.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Seems you haven't known enough women yet.

Paul

Hm, I think I know women more intimately than a man - from the inside out, so to speak. (It's really, truly not true that everyone on the Internet is a guy. )

Every time I leave for a few days these kind of posts pop up. I think they hurt the image of skeptics more than anything I could ever say.

I don't know what he's mad about. We're going to let him be in the movie, aren't we?

I mean, it's not like he's Belz... or anything.

 

[amb]

'tis Jeri Ryan, Your Majesty, and I've seen lots of pictures of her. To my reasonably astute eye, she seems to be 100% just as evolution made her.

She's rather stunning, isn't she?

That body belongs in the art of natural beauty museum.

 

[Hokulele]

Outstanding.

DOC, if you do not respond to this post and instead choose to answer subsequent posts, particularly if it they do not directly address the OP, it will be evidence that you have no interest in substantiative debate and are simply wasting people's time and energy. You have been warned.

Called it.

Every time I leave for a few days these kind of posts pop up. I think they hurt the image of skeptics more than anything I could ever say.

DOC, thank you for finally providing evidence of something in this thread.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

Is having a sense of humour bad in your world?

btw: how would you hurt the image of sceptics?

He could pretend to be one?

 

[Akhenaten]

Every time I leave for a few days these kind of posts pop up. I think they hurt the image of skeptics more than anything I could ever say.

You blatantly ignore posts such as Waterman's and X's to post drivel like this, and then claim that we are harming the cause of skepticism?

It's impossible for us to parody this kind of behaviour, DOC.

What on Earth would lead you to believe that you could possibly say anything which would harm scepticism? Your lies and evasions are exactly what brings people into the sceptical fold.

Are you really the antichrist or do you just want to play that part in our new production?


I must say, you're eminently qualified for it.

 

[Akhenaten]

Who is this, DOC?

What do you think the quote means, DOC?

 

[Brainache]

That body belongs in the art of natural beauty museum.

I heard that when she divorced her husband one of the reasons was that he used to take her to weird sex parties and make her do rude things with strangers.
The Cad never invited me!


Appears to be only partly true.
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/22/ryan.divorce/



Was that a derail?

Umm....

Where is your evidence DOC?

 

[amb]

I heard that when she divorced her husband one of the reasons was that he used to take her to weird sex parties and make her do rude things with strangers.
The Cad never invited me!


Appears to be only partly true.
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/22/ryan.divorce/



Was that a derail?

Umm....

Where is your evidence DOC?

All I can say to that is that the man is not fit for public office and a fool. Fancy been married to that and not treating her like a goddess.

 

[23_Tauri]

Are those people in SI & CE taking themselves all seriously again?

Seems that way.

Must be time for another fruitcake thread.

That'll be in Social Issues and Currant Events, yes?

 

[Lothian]

Every time I leave for a few days these kind of posts pop up. I think they hurt the image of skeptics more than anything I could ever say.

Doc, the following posts were made while you were away. Show you have some intellectual honesty by answering them next time you post.

Doc,

This thread is titled "Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth?"

Can you help me with one particular part? Son of God: Virgin birth. What evidence do we have that Mary was a virgin and the Holy spirit was the father of her son?

Seems to me this is a fundamental part of Christianity. If Jesus was just another preacher the whole thing is founded on a lie. There must be some fairly robust evidence somewhere.

The gospel writers obviously weren't there at the birth, so what evidence is there?

Note: I don't care about Stars, Sheppards, Kings, the census, Bethlehem, mangers etc. What evidence is there that his birth was unique in that a Virgin gave birth?

Indeed.

1) Miracles don't exist.
2) Words do.
3) Therefore, words can be more powerful than miracles.

How nice of you to NOT actually counter what I said.



Harry Potter has changed thousands of lives for the better, so what's your point ?



How is that evidence that the words are true ?



Considering that "western civilization" started under Zeus, I seriously doubt that.



I refuse to take such speculation as authoritative. We have no idea what would've happened in that case.

You made several factual statements about the contents of the bible and the literary style found therein (Reasons 1, 2, 3 & 9). However your arguments break down is that you start running off on OPINIONS about what these literary style and elements means. Those are unfounded opinion. Furthermore when the writing is good, exciting and draws the reader in it is evidence of truth when the writing is difficult and boring it is evidence of truth.

Reason 10 as presented has been pointed out time and again and faulty reasoning. Please identify the NON-OPINION based pieces of evidence that I have overlooked.



FACT the detail is included
OPINION it supports truth of Bible.
ERROR this is a reference to a literary style and if you actually read the discussion on the topic it only refers to the probability of truth regarding the embarrassing detail not the entirety of the story.
ERROR this only applies to the authors details about himself, as has been pointed out much of the bible is written by unknown authors after years of oral tradition and are only attributed to certain individuals at a later date. This in itself renders Reason #1 invalid.



FACT the detail is included
OPINION it supports the idea of the truth of Bible.
ERROR this an assessment of the content of the bible and discussing the literary style elements of story telling. The same can be said about Harry Potter, Bilbo Baggins, Hercules and other flawed heroes. It is not an indication of truth.



FACT the sayings are included
OPINION it supports the idea of the truth of Bible.
ERROR Christianity started as a sect of Judaism and comes from a demanding but relatively exclusive tradition. The early Christian teachings were modifying Judaic tradition to open the door to the family of god to non-Jews. It was not the creation of completely new religion, it was the same demanding god of the Jewish traditions but a little more tolerant (but not a lot). It would be more surprising if it DIDN”T include demanding sayings.

4-8 not included in post #1



FACT some of the story telling is boring
OPINION this is an indication of Truth.
ERROR this is a commentary on writing style only and cannot be used an evidence of anything other than a writing style and what that may or may not evoke in the reader.



FACT people do have strong cherished beliefs that they are willing to die for
OPINION this ‘adds weight’ to the belief being true.
ERROR this only is indicative the conviction of the believers (Suicide Bombers, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Heavens Gate) not of the factual truth of their belief.

The reasons listed in Post #1 are almost all fact, and this post has several non-opinionated pieces of evidence in it

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5702420#post5702420

You made several factual statements about the contents of the bible and the literary style found therein (Reasons 1, 2, 3 & 9). However your arguments break down is that you start running off on OPINIONS about what these literary style and elements means. Those are unfounded opinion. Furthermore when the writing is good, exciting and draws the reader in it is evidence of truth when the writing is difficult and boring it is evidence of truth.

Reason 10 as presented has been pointed out time and again and faulty reasoning. Please identify the NON-OPINION based pieces of evidence that I have overlooked.

Reason #1
The New Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details About Themselves.
For example some passages portray the disciples as dim-witted, uncaring, and cowards.

FACT the detail is included
OPINION is that they are embarrassing.
OPINION it supports truth of Bible.
ERROR this is a reference to a literary style and if you actually read the discussion on the topic it only refers to the probability of truth regarding the embarrassing detail not the entirety of the story.
ERROR this only applies to the authors details about himself, as has been pointed out much of the bible is written by unknown authors after years of oral tradition and are only attributed to certain individuals at a later date. This in itself renders Reason #1 invalid.

Reason #2
The New Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details and Difficult Sayings of Jesus.
For example in one passage someone call Jesus a drunkard, and in another He was called demon-possessed, another a deceiver.

FACT the detail is included
OPINION is that they are embarrassing and/or difficult.
OPINION it supports the idea of the truth of Bible.
ERROR this an assessment of the content of the bible and discussing the literary style elements of story telling. The same can be said about Harry Potter, Bilbo Baggins, Hercules and other flawed heroes. It is not an indication of truth.

Reason #3
The NT Writers Left in Very Demanding Sayings of Jesus.
For example: (Matthew 5:28) "I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".
And (Matt. 5:44-45) "I tell you Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you...

FACT the sayings are included
OPINION is that they are demanding.
OPINION it supports the idea of the truth of Bible.
ERROR Christianity started as a sect of Judaism and comes from a demanding but relatively exclusive tradition. The early Christian teachings were modifying Judaic tradition to open the door to the family of god to non-Jews. It was not the creation of completely new religion, it was the same demanding god of the Jewish traditions but a little more tolerant (but not a lot). It would be more surprising if it DIDN”T include demanding sayings.

4-8 not included in post #1

Reason #9
The New Testament Writers Describe Miracles Like Other Historical Events: With Simple, Unembellished Accounts.
If they made them up it would be likely that they would have used grandiose and extravagant images. The book says the gospels talk about the Resurrection in a matter of fact almost bland way.

FACT some of the story telling is boring
UNSUPPORTED ASSERTION is that these miracles have historical basis.
OPINION this is an indication of Truth.
ERROR this is a commentary on writing style only and cannot be used an evidence of anything other than a writing style and what that may or may not evoke in the reader.

Reason #10
The New Testament Writers Abandoned Their Long Held Sacred Beliefs and Practices, Adopted New Ones, And Did Not Deny Their Testimony Under Persecution Or Threat Of Death

FACT people do have strong cherished beliefs that they are willing to die for
OPINION this ‘adds weight’ to the belief being true.
ERROR this only is indicative the conviction of the believers (Suicide Bombers, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Heavens Gate) not of the factual truth of their belief.

I hope you don't mind, Waterman, but I've added some thoughts to your excellent post.
My additions are in red.

To DOC. Here is where christianity originally started taking over most of Europe. Centuries after your hero was crucified if he ever existed at all.

http://atheism.about.com/od/christi...ristianity/Constantine-Great-Apostle.htm?nl=1

 

[Belz...]

Every time I leave for a few days these kind of posts pop up. I think they hurt the image of skeptics more than anything I could ever say.

Ah, I had forgotten how much theists hate humour...

Oh, wait. That's just you.

 

[Wolrab]

Is there a program that will take any given batch of text and turn it into a Bible Code equidistant skip thingy? I'm wondering if the evidences promised may be contained in DOC's 5,630,225 posts in this tread.

 

[kmortis]

Is there a program that will take any given batch of text and turn it into a Bible Code equidistant skip thingy? I'm wondering if the evidences promised may be contained in DOC's 5,630,225 posts in this tread.

There is, and maybe we could use one for script rewrites. Here's a few that are free, but I'm sure that one of the more software oriented JREF members could gin one up just as easily.


On an unrelated note, I notice that DOC didn't quote any of my "useless" or "harmful" posts. I think he's got me on ignore.

 

[zooterkin]

Every time I leave for a few days these kind of posts pop up. I think they hurt the image of skeptics more than anything I could ever say.

You're absolutely right.

 

[Akhenaten]

You're absolutely right.

heh heh.

I see what you did there.

 

[Waterman]

Every time I leave for a few days these kind of posts pop up. I think they hurt the image of skeptics more than anything I could ever say.

I think that the reason that most posters here don’t take the thread seriously is because you do not appear to be taking it seriously. I have made repeated polite posts addressing the topics that you raise, instead of responding to those posts you take the time to highlight the side discussion that has nothing to do with the point that you SAY you want to discuss.

So what do you expect the posters here to discuss in your absence? Based on my reading of these posts the consensus is that what you have presented as ‘evidence of truth of the New Testament’ falls way short of standard of evidence that is acceptable and understood on this forum. So while we wait for you to return and rebut the arguments or post additional ‘evidence’ there is some idle chitchat. Numerous people have posted exactly where your previous arguments have broken down in their reasoning (see posts re Gielser’s 10 reasons and Greenleaf). For the discussion to move forward you need to either provide counter arguments for why those reasons are invalid or provide additional evidence.

Remember that quotes or credentials of famous people not evidence of anything other than their own opinion not of the truth of a matter.

 

[DOC]

Almost all fact?
So you admit you posted false statements?
Interesting....

Huh -- the few that weren't facts were opinions.

 

[DOC]

And the Aztecs slew the Catholic Spanish for their gold?

No, but they did kill thousands a year in human sacrifice:

From the article Aztec Sacrifice:

"Human sacrifice was practised to some extent by many peoples in Mesoamerica (and for that matter, around the world) for many centuries. But it was Aztec sacrifice that really took the ritual to new heights. How many people were sacrificed by the Aztecs? We don't know how many were sacrificed over the years - it's possible that some accounts are exaggerated - but it was probably thousands each year - tens of thousands or more all together. Some estimates claim 20,000 a year.

The Aztecs had 18 months in one cycle, and for each of the 18 months there was ritual sacrifice. The victim would be painted as a part of the ritual, they would be placed on a slab where their heart would be removed and held up to the sun. The body would be thrown down the stairs of the temple/pyramid.

The body would be disposed of in various ways, such as feeding animals at the zoo or putting on display (the heads)."

http://www.aztec-history.com/aztec-sacrifice.html