A fundy committed suicide.

[Darth Rotor]

You perpetuate the problem.
Wishing death on a group of people is not admirable, is not fit for humor, and is not appreciated.

Since I did not wish death on anyone, would you care to try again? Try not to lie this time.

If you dislike gallows humor, I get that.

DR

 

[AvalonXQ]

Since I did not wish death on anyone, would you care to try again? Try not to lie this time.

Since I didn't say that you wished death on anyone, would you care to try again? Try not to lie this time.

 

[willhaven]

Does that not count as "pain" to you?

Temporary pain yes.

Do you admit to the possibility that to the person suffering that it may be impossible to tell if their particular emotional stress is temporary or not?

The severity of pain will change over time. The loss of a child drives some to suicide, for others it just makes them sad. It doesn't mean that the person who committed suicide loved their child any more, it just means that the one who didn't commit suicide was able to cope. They were stronger. The person who committed suicide was emotionally weaker.

Do you admit to the possibility that to the person suffering that even the "temporary" emotional stress may be too much for them to handle even in the short term?

It depends on the person and the coping mechanisms they possess. Most people have coping mechanisms that keep them from suicide. Many people who experience horrible terrible things don't kill themselves because they know how to process it and deal with it.

Exactly. Yet, you "believe" he and his ilk are "idiots" anyway?

Depends on whether he had an irreversible affliction of some sort. If he didn't, I think he was weak. Or ignorant or stupid. Whatever you wish to call it.

But my question was, WHO has killed themselves without some sort of painful and irreversible affliction, that you thereby believe is an "idiot"?

All emotional stress is reversible or manageable. With help, therapy, etc. The initial impacts of a stressful event may seem overwhelming, but everything can be managed through counseling and the like.

If someone kills themselves over financial stress, that's idiotic. If someone kills themselves over a failed relationship, that's idiotic. If someone kills themselves because they don't want to be captured by police for a murder charge, then I begin to see their point. If someone kills themselves because they find out they have 6 months to live, I see their point.

 

[Piscivore]

Temporary pain yes.

And you are the expert, are you? Had a child die, maybe? Been personally privvy to the emotional ravagaes of mental illness?

Don't worry, everybody- what you feel is meaningless, because willyboy says it's just "temporary".

The severity of pain will change over time.

So you say. Have you lost a child?

The loss of a child drives some to suicide, for others it just makes them sad. It doesn't mean that the person who committed suicide loved their child any more, it just means that the one who didn't commit suicide was able to cope. They were stronger. The person who committed suicide was emotionally weaker.

And that makes them an "idiot"?

How do you know that that does not mean that for the one that committed suicide that the severity of the pain did not change over time?

It depends on the person and the coping mechanisms they possess. Most people have coping mechanisms that keep them from suicide. Many people who experience horrible terrible things don't kill themselves because they know how to process it and deal with it.

And that makes the ones that do not know how to "process it" "idiots"?

Depends on whether he had an irreversible affliction of some sort. If he didn't, I think he was weak. Or ignorant or stupid. Whatever you wish to call it.

And what counts as an "irreversible affliction", hmm? How do you know your "weak, ignorant, stupid" person did not see his suffering as just such an affliction?

I see ignorance and stupidity here, but it's not with the suicide. A whole smegging lot of arrogance, as well.

All emotional stress is reversible or manageable.

What is your source for such a pronouncement?

With help, therapy, etc. The initial impacts of a stressful event may seem overwhelming, but everything can be managed through counseling and the like.

Really? extraordinary. What is your source?

If someone kills themselves over financial stress, that's idiotic. If someone kills themselves over a failed relationship, that's idiotic. If someone kills themselves because they don't want to be captured by police for a murder charge, then I begin to see their point. If someone kills themselves because they find out they have 6 months to live, I see their point.

What is the difference to you between the first two and the last two?

 

[ProbeX]

Every time I saw this individual he looked strange. Something in his eyes and even the way he walked. He was never at ease and he never shut up. When he was with a vocal non believer he would latch on to that person like he did me and nothing and I do mean nothing would shut him up. I've seen people on drugs act like him but I never heard about him doing drugs. Youd have to have seen this pathetic excuse of a human being to know what I'm talking aobut. I don't know how he got through law school.

One of his tactics was this. Youd tell him you didn't believe in god and then he'd say "well you just keep thinking like that" in an ominous tone of voice and then stalk away mad only come come back a few minutes later and start in again. He latched onto me because I'm very vocally against religion. I initially tried to reason with him and then I got mad. Nothing worked. He let up only after he was banned from every bar in town and th restaurant owner threatened to call the police. I personally didn't think calling the police would do any good but apparently it worked for the owners.

I feel that his parents should have realised he had a problem nad got him to a doctor but thats not what happened.

Hmmm. So since you're saying he was pretty much consistently intense and persistent with "forced speech" (the inability to resist talking quickly and often), I'd guess schizophrenia, rather than bipolar. Bipolar includes forced speech too, but it generally eases up at times. But this sounds like a persistent, unrelenting thought disorder (a feature of psychosis).

Interestingly, people who have this problem often go undiagnosed for years, especially if - as I suspect - he had paranoid schizophrenia, rather than the more dysfunctional form (hebephrenic), where sentences are more disjointed, like a kind of "word salad", and the person is less likely to function as a lawyer.

Paranoid schiz., which you seem to be describing, can still allow the person to be generally coherent, handling basic logic, though s/he'll have unusual and bizarre belief systems. That would have made it possible for him to function as a lawyer for some time, if not for a long time. They are often quite smart, but there just seems to be something "off" about them, as in most schiz.s: inappropriate facial/emotional responses, eye-contact is hectic or absent; inappropriate emotional outbursts, or seeming disinterest in emotional stimuli, etc. Hope I didn't tranquilize you with details. Wasn't sure how much to say about it.

One thing: If he did have paranoid schiz., then his wife and kid are lucky he didn't go ahead and kill them too.

 

[Roadtoad]

No one knows but God. Also, anyone who does kill themselves is psychologically in a lot of pain, ridiculing them for that is not in any way shape or form, OK.

For someone to judge them based on what little information you have, never having lived their life, is rather callous and hypocritical.

In the end God will judge whether he was truly a Christian, and whether or not he will spend eternity in hell or with God. The fact that he was so vocal with his faith bodes well, but I cannot say for sure, since I never heard him speak.

When one listens to the ted haggard's of the world, you could hear that he didn't exactly have the spirit of God with him. Especially some of the things he did like after the Dawkins interview when he freaked out and yelled at him and told him to get off the property.

You know, Hamelekim, this is part of the problem I have with what you say. What gives the right of any man or woman, anyone, to say whether or not someone is a "true Christian" or not, or whether their words "have the spirit of God"? I find it arrogant, hateful, and extraordinarily cruel, mainly because it's so damnably manipulative.

Another point: What was this man being saved from in his beliefs? Who on earth was the idiot who told him that by buckling his knees to a non-existent god would change him into a wonderful person? What was there in his life that left him thinking he had found "the answer," and that he had to ram it down the throats of people who had no real interest in it? Did it never occur to him that if he wanted people to follow his god, it might not hurt to live a life worth emulating?

Is this situation tragic? Yup. This man's child will grow up hearing about how daddy offed himself, blew his brains out just a short time ahead of his birth. In this extreme "christian" environment, he'll no doubt hear about how his daddy's in Hell. Salvation will be at a heavy price, if it can be obtained at all.

It's a lie, of course. But you knew that.

It took me years to get over the idea of suicide. It still haunts me, in part because I know how close I am to doing it when the feces hits the oscillator. I also know that there is a better way, even if that knowledge is only empirical. When you're trained to believe that you are totally worthless, regardless of the source of the lessons, it's hard as hell to break the cycle and suicide doesn't seem quite so bad; after all, by leaving this earth, you're doing people a favor, particularly if you're little more than the dross.

It's unfortunate that we don't know more about this man, and what drove him. Perhaps there might have been an answer as to why he did this incredibly selfish and hateful thing. But the choice to reveal that information was his alone. It became a weapon, and in the end, those who knew and loved him will be the ones hurt. I'm very sorry for that.

As to anyone else, we can learn from it. That's about it. I can only wish that others who feel so close to ending their own lives will choose otherwise. I can't help but feel we're weaker when we don't have the gifts they have to share, even if they cannot recognize those gifts in themselves.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Since I didn't say that you wished death on anyone, would you care to try again? Try not to lie this time.

In your own words, amigo.

You perpetuate the problem.
Wishing death on a group of people is not admirable, is not fit for humor, and is not appreciated.

Notice how you strung those thoughts together in series?
You gonna retract your lie, or stand convicted by your own words as a liar?

I sincerely hope that the latter is not your choice.

If for some reason, and lack of skill in self expression, your first sentence and the follow up are unrelated to one another, why in the heck did you string them together like that? Are you looking to be misunderstood?

I had a choice to make: Karma, or Justice. Two things of similar kind, differing connotation. I chose not to use Karma as it wouldn't be as interesting a characterization.

DR

 

[Roadtoad]

This has to be one of the most ignorant and insensitive threads ever started on this forum. I can deal with the skeptics here that pose faux "questions" about religion; particularly about the Bible. Questions that are nothing more than bait, hoping a Christian will engage so that said skeptic(s) can get their ideological rocks off and "prove" the folly of the religious.

Here are some delightful examples:

Did Jesus did not know the date of his return?
He Died to Save Us From Our Sins. Huh?
My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Most, if not all of these threads devolve into a skeptic's grab-a** party where one skeptic high-fives another in a triumphalist display of their unmatched brilliance while they simultaneously mock the poor, illogical, and quite delusional believer. Lather, rinse, repeat...ad infinitum.

What I cannot accept is why another human being would choose to delight in the pain and suffering of another by cracking jokes, for any reason, or turn such a tragedy into an opportunity to impugn the individual.

People connected with Skepticism, Christianity, Judaism, Rotary Club, Athletes, and any other group you can think of can commit suicide. I can remember a prominent atheist connected to Infidels who committed suicide a few years ago. I also remember the sorrow I felt for him and his friends and family when I read about it. Never did I feel the need to drag him through the mud for his beliefs, or lack thereof. He was a REAL person who's reach extended to people that loved and cared for him and they have to carry the burdens of his death with them for the rest of their lives.

In short, you sir or maam are a disgusting human being.

I hope whatever pleasure your post provided you was worth it.

Sorry, I don't see that happening here. Cainkane1 is genuinely confused by this, and trying to find an answer. Very few here are engaging in the "grab-ass" party.

There's nothing amusing about this, I agree. People are genuinely being hurt in the aftermath of this. But it's also false to ignore the reality of this man's beliefs in this, because they may well have played a role, however minor that role may be.

I would suggest reading posts from Slingblade about some of what she's endured over the past few years, much of which is gut-wrenching to say the least. I would suspect there might be a few parallels to be found. At the same time, we also have a responsibility to examine why this takes place, because it is outside the norm of human existence to willingly end your own life. We don't do that, as a rule.

Something to consider.

 

[Roadtoad]

Then you haven't much imagination.

As a former fundie, I would love nothing better than to be able to comfort myself with the thought that my dead mother, who is now a collection of ash and bone bits in a cardboard box in my sister's bedroom closet is, instead, enjoying her afterlife on a soft, fluffy cloud in heaven.

But she's not. And I've fought suicide for two years now without that comfort, which would help immensely. I'm not saying I'm about to kill myself. I am saying that my inability to believe fantasy is reality would be contributory--largely contributory--were I ever to do so.

Imagine harder. And climb off that high horse.

I'd think it would be easy to get off that high horse, considering it's dead.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Sorry, I don't see that happening here. Cainkane1 is genuinely confused by this, and trying to find an answer.

Hmm, OK, giving him the benefit of the doubt is a reasonable way to address the OP. Given Cainkane1's posting history of OP's, I am not sure about that, but if I put on my hat of "this is a particularly personal and tough thing to deal with" your position makes good sense.

DR

 

[Roadtoad]

Hmm, OK, giving him the benefit of the doubt is a reasonable way to address the OP. Given Cainkane1's posting history of OP's, I am not sure about that, but if I put on my hat of "this is a particularly personal and tough thing to deal with" your position makes good sense.

DR

Thank you, Sir. As is usually the case with OPs and those who post them, it tends to help to wait for further communication.

 

[willhaven]

So you say. Have you lost a child?

No, but I've known more than one couple who has (one miscarriage and one still birth). Both couples buried the child, were inconsolable for a short time, and slowly dealt with the pain. Eventually both couples began to laugh and joke again. So, yes, emotional pain of the worst kind usually gets less severe over time as you get distance from it and gain perspective.

And that makes them an "idiot"?

How do you know that that does not mean that for the one that committed suicide that the severity of the pain did not change over time?

Then they're weak. The more trivial the trigger for suicide, the more idiotic it looks. I knew a guy who offed himself because his girlfriend broke up with him. It was idiotic.

And that makes the ones that do not know how to "process it" "idiots"?

Depending on what drove the person to suicide, it sure can seem idiotic. The more trivial the cause seems, the more idiotic the suicide seems. But that's my perspective.

I think people who are ignorant of the world around them are idiots. I also think people who are emotionally ignorant or immature are also idiots.

And what counts as an "irreversible affliction", hmm? How do you know your "weak, ignorant, stupid" person did not see his suffering as just such an affliction?

I see ignorance and stupidity here, but it's not with the suicide. A whole smegging lot of arrogance, as well.

If they are ignorant of a way out, or they put their relationships on a pedestal, yes it's weak, ignorant and stupid to commit suicide for just about any reason.

What is your source for such a pronouncement?

That's pretty much a part of the human condition. That said, I'm a determinist who doesn't believe in free will. I think we all can only make one choice in any given situation. I don't believe these people could have made any other choice, but to me, it does appear idiotic.

Really? extraordinary. What is your source?

Almost every person I've ever known or interacted with. The overwhelming majority of people can get through the stresses of life without committing suicide. They've all got coping mechanisms and can sort through their problems. Some can't and it seems pretty stupid and needless from my point of view.

I want to know why this "fundy" offed himself. My guess is that it will seem trivial to me in relation to putting a gun to yourself and pulling the trigger. If politicians and guys like David Letterman can make the dumbest of mistakes and get dragged out into the public eye and be the target of jokes for years without committing suicide, I think most average people should be able to handle the stresses of life and relationships without killing themselves.

It's sad. But it's also idiotic from where I stand.

What is the difference to you between the first two and the last two?

With the last two, your life literally is or could be ending. With the first two, those are just incredibly sad or stressful. You can get over a failed relationship or a bankruptcy. You can't get over an execution or terminal cancer.

 

[Roadtoad]

willhaven, you might want to reconsider your words, given Piscivore's past. It's not my tale to tell, but trust me. You clearly have no idea.

 

[Marduk]

Yes. Don't we all enjoy a good knee slapper about suicide?

Yes totally,, theres literally hundreds maybe thousands of jokes on the subject, Billy Connoly even uses it in his routine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdNqUW5wwTE
quite a few people pay good money to hear it
or theres Achmed the dead terrorist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go
if you are right, why do these exist
theres also more than 8 million pages on the net found with the search string "funny suicide"

BTW, I was just informed by one of your fellow skeptics that no one was utilizing this for humor. So which is it?
.

I was answering your question about why someone would use humour, you seemed in some difficulty understanding this very basic premise, I was not replying to any previous posters statements about anything. This you should have surmised by me quoting you and not anyone else.

sense of humour = essential life tool

As I stated earlier, I doubt the same satire would be visited upon a skeptic around here.

the sceptics round here don't go telling people that they will find their rewards in the next life with sky daddy, so as it is, why shouldn't we celebrate the death of every fundie with good cheer ?
didn't they finally get what they have been telling us they had coming ?
didn't their life mission finally end with personal success ?


so personally I don't see your problem, seems a bit to me like you don't understand human nature very well

 

[bookitty]

No, but I've known more than one couple who has (one miscarriage and one still birth). Both couples buried the child, were inconsolable for a short time, and slowly dealt with the pain. Eventually both couples began to laugh and joke again. So, yes, emotional pain of the worst kind usually gets less severe over time as you get distance from it and gain perspective.

That's pretty much a part of the human condition. That said, I'm a determinist who doesn't believe in free will. I think we all can only make one choice in any given situation. I don't believe these people could have made any other choice, but to me, it does appear idiotic.

It's sad. But it's also idiotic from where I stand.

With the last two, your life literally is or could be ending. With the first two, those are just incredibly sad or stressful. You can get over a failed relationship or a bankruptcy. You can't get over an execution or terminal cancer.

Well, at least we now have arbitrary guidelines for how much pain people are allowed to feel without being idiotic. How nice. Too bad there's no wiggle room for individual cases, its going to make it a bit more difficult for people who are not within these guidelines to get help.

But at least they can stop all that silly research into the causes and treatment of depression. We'll just tell people to stop being idiotic and grow a pair. That should help immensely.

 

[Piscivore]

No, but I've known more than one couple who has (one miscarriage and one still birth). Both couples buried the child, were inconsolable for a short time, and slowly dealt with the pain. Eventually both couples began to laugh and joke again. So, yes, emotional pain of the worst kind usually gets less severe over time as you get distance from it and gain perspective.

ETA: As Toad says, I've got some perspective on this you do not. You are wrong.

Then they're weak. The more trivial the trigger for suicide, the more idiotic it looks. I knew a guy who offed himself because his girlfriend broke up with him. It was idiotic.

Depending on what drove the person to suicide, it sure can seem idiotic. The more trivial the cause seems, the more idiotic the suicide seems. But that's my perspective.

So... wait. You are saying here that these people "seem" like idiots, that they "look" like idiots from "your perspective". Are you saying that your perspective is somehow more informed than theirs is? That you know exactly what they think and feel and therefor how they should act in any situation?

I think people who are ignorant of the world around them are idiots. I also think people who are emotionally ignorant or immature are also idiots.

Interesting.

That's pretty much a part of the human condition. That said, I'm a determinist who doesn't believe in free will. I think we all can only make one choice in any given situation. I don't believe these people could have made any other choice, but to me, it does appear idiotic.

What exactly is your definition of "idiot"? If they didn't have another way of acting, that as irrational and ignorant as calling a thunderstorm or photosynthesis "stupid".

Some can't and it seems pretty stupid and needless from my point of view.

If the person commiting suicide "can only make one choice in any given situation", then isn't it stupid and needless to fault them for not doing otherwise?

Or are you just using the situation to fulfill an emotional need to feel smug and superior?

I want to know why this "fundy" offed himself. My guess is that it will seem trivial to me in relation to putting a gun to yourself and pulling the trigger.

Why do you get to decide for them what is a "trivial" reason or not?

...I think most average people should be able to handle the stresses of life and relationships without killing themselves.

There you go again with your grotesque generalities. Every person is unique.

I think I'm starting to see the reason for this judgement you are making- you don't like it when people act contrary to your expectations. You've got a preconceived idea about how "people" should act "in general", and when they don't fit into your idea about what is "average" you've got to explain the contradiction. Thus, "they're idiots"- regardless of the fact that you claim they could not do otherwise.

With the last two, your life literally is or could be ending. With the first two, those are just incredibly sad or stressful. You can get over a failed relationship or a bankruptcy. You can't get over an execution or terminal cancer.

You're just showing your own ignorance. Just because "most" people can get over a failed relationship or a bankruptcy does not mean every person can. Look at Emperor Norton. Did he "get over" his bankruptcy, or not? Was he an "idiot"? Did O.J. "get over" his failed relationship with Nicole Simpson, or not?

The fact that some people do kill themselves over these things suggest that they did not "get over" them. Your claim that they "would have" if they had lived is nothing but outright speculation and assertion on your part- based on nothing but your own preconcieved ideas about how people "on average" behave. Please show me any evidence otherwise- all you've got so far is raw assertion.

 

[willhaven]

Well, at least we now have arbitrary guidelines for how much pain people are allowed to feel without being idiotic. How nice. Too bad there's no wiggle room for individual cases, its going to make it a bit more difficult for people who are not within these guidelines to get help.

But at least they can stop all that silly research into the causes and treatment of depression. We'll just tell people to stop being idiotic and grow a pair. That should help immensely.

I'm entitled to my opinion. I never said they should just grow a pair and not kill themselves. Still, from my view, much of the rationale for suicide strikes me as idiotic.

ETA: As Toad says, I've got some perspective on this you do not. You are wrong.

So, whatever trauma you have experienced. Do you still feel exactly today as you did the day it happened?

So... wait. You are saying here that these people "seem" like idiots, that they "look" like idiots from "your perspective". Are you saying that your perspective is somehow more informed than theirs is? That you know exactly what they think and feel and therefor how they should act in any situation?

Given two people given the same trauma: one commits suicide, the other does not. The one that did not had something about their character or previous experiences that allowed them to deal with it and move on.

Words like "stupid" and "idiotic" are ways to express someone who is ignorant of the world. It's not necessarily their fault that they are ignorant, yet the words "stupid" and "idiot" are still used in daily conversation by regular people.

Many would say that an abusive husband is a violent idiot. I would say that many who commit suicide are idiotic for similar reasons. They don't know how to deal with their feelings and it manifests as harm toward themselves or others.

Just because suicide is sad doesn't exonerate that person from same kind of judgment that we use on other people every day.

What exactly is your definition of "idiot"? If they didn't have another way of acting, that as irrational and ignorant as calling a thunderstorm or photosynthesis "stupid".

Let's go with Webster:

Main Entry: id·i·ot
Pronunciation: \ˈi-dē-ət\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French ydiote, from Latin idiota ignorant person, from Greek idiōtēs one in a private station, layman, ignorant person, from idios one's own, private; akin to Latin suus one's own — more at suicide
Date: 14th century

1usually offensive : a person affected with extreme mental retardation
2 : a foolish or stupid person

— idiot adjective

Wow, suicide is directly linked from their definition of idiot.

As a determinist, I believe stupidity or being an idiot is simply ignorance. Saying that a person is stupid or an idiot usually implies that the person in question doesn't bother or is incapable of being more intelligent. It's impossible to know for sure, yet we still use generalized words like this every day.

I'm a determinist, but I still call people idiots and still believe that people should be punished for crimes, even though I believe every person to be a victim of circumstance.

If the person commiting suicide "can only make one choice in any given situation", then isn't it stupid and needless to fault them for not doing otherwise?

Or are you just using the situation to fulfill an emotional need to feel smug and superior?

Why wouldn't I? I don't know the guy. On the surface it's sad, but I still think the guy was likely acting in the heat of the moment and that I would probably find the trigger to be laughable. If I knew the guy, I might feel differently. But that's perspective for you.

Why do you get to decide for them what is a "trivial" reason or not?

Because I am making judgments to form my own opinions. It doesn't mean that you or anyone else has to agree with them.

There you go again with your grotesque generalities. Every person is unique.

Do most people who suffer a breakup kill themselves? No. It's not a grotesque generality when it's generally true. Of course everyone is unique and things impact people differently. Most people who suffer some emotional trauma will not put a gun to themselves in order to end their life.

If this guy killed himself because of financial troubles, he is a coward. If he killed himself in order to save a burning building full of children, he is a hero. The judgments are left up to us to make for ourselves.

I think I'm starting to see the reason for this judgement you are making- you don't like it when people act contrary to your expectations. You've got a preconceived idea about how "people" should act "in general", and when they don't fit into your idea about what is "average" you've got to explain the contradiction. Thus, "they're idiots"- regardless of the fact that you claim they could not do otherwise.

Unless you have severe brain damage, everyone has notions of how everyone should act in general. Everyone who has these notions of how people should act doesn't like it when someone is acting outside of their expectations.

And yes, my explanation for them is that they are idiots when they commit needless acts of self violence.

You're just showing your own ignorance. Just because "most" people can get over a failed relationship or a bankruptcy does not mean every person can. Look at Emperor Norton. Did he "get over" his bankruptcy, or not? Was he an "idiot"? Did O.J. "get over" his failed relationship with Nicole Simpson, or not?

The fact that some people do kill themselves over these things suggest that they did not "get over" them. Your claim that they "would have" if they had lived is nothing but outright speculation and assertion on your part- based on nothing but your own preconcieved ideas about how people "on average" behave. Please show me any evidence otherwise- all you've got so far is raw assertion.

I'm not trying to provide proof of anything. People who commit suicide are on the outside of the bell curve and I'm entitled to my opinion and interpretation of their actions. And I'm definitely not ignorant to the fact that they were simply unable to cope with their given circumstances.

Most people don't commit suicide. Of those who do, many kill themselves for what I see as idiotic and unnecessary reasons.

 

[Fnord]

... Most people don't commit suicide. Of those who do, many kill themselves for what I see as idiotic and unnecessary reasons.

.
This begs the question of what you think constitutes a reason for suicide that is both intelligent and necessary.

IMHO, such a reason could be that a person has a 100% fatal and incurable disease (pancreatic cancer, perhaps?), wishes to spare him- or her-self the indignity and pain of the terminal phase, and wants his or her heirs to not grieve extensively. In other words, to just get it over with and avoid most of the mess and fuss of a protracted dying process. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Piscivore]

I'm entitled to my opinion. I never said they should just grow a pair and not kill themselves. Still, from my view, much of the rationale for suicide strikes me as idiotic.

There's your problem, assuming there is a "rationale" at all.

So, whatever trauma you have experienced. Do you still feel exactly today as you did the day it happened?

Yes. I've compartmentalised it and built walls around it and put up screens, but my daughter's death hurts just as much as it did then. I found reasons to keep going- my other two children- but I'm not about to fault someone who didn't. I know what they felt. You don't. That's why I consider your condemnation ignorant and arrogant.

Given two people given the same trauma: one commits suicide, the other does not. The one that did not had something about their character or previous experiences that allowed them to deal with it and move on.

That's nothing more than your ignorant, pulled-out-of-your-arse assumption. I'd love to see any evidence to the contrary, though. Have any?

Words like "stupid" and "idiotic" are ways to express someone who is ignorant of the world. It's not necessarily their fault that they are ignorant, yet the words "stupid" and "idiot" are still used in daily conversation by regular people.

They are emotionly laden words, conveying that the person using them is making an emotional value judment rather than a reasoned one. In my mind, that conveys just as much ignorance as that which the useage is meant to condemn.

Let's go with Webster:

Just confirming that you are making a judgement that you think you know better than they do what they are feeling.

Wow, suicide is directly linked from their definition of idiot.

Did you happen to notice how and why? Keep digging, you are just confirming your ignorance.

As a determinist, I believe stupidity or being an idiot is simply ignorance. Saying that a person is stupid or an idiot usually implies that the person in question doesn't bother or is incapable of being more intelligent.

If they are incapable (which seems the only reasonable assement given your "determinism") then why make the value jugement?

It's impossible to know for sure, yet we still use generalized words like this every day.

Yes, people make incorrect judments every day. That's not something to celebrate, and I don't consider it exculpatory for one's own incorrect judgments.

I'm a determinist, but I still call people idiots

I guess you can't help being arrogant in your ignorance, then? Is that what you're saying?

Why wouldn't I? I don't know the guy... If I knew the guy, I might feel differently. But that's perspective for you.

It is perspective, certainly. Are you saying the degree to which you are comfortable making harsh and uncompromising judgements about people's actions to inversly relational to the amount of knowledge you have about them?

Do most people who suffer a breakup kill themselves? No.

Why does what "most people" do have anything at all to do with what any individual person does?

It's not a grotesque generality when it's generally true.

It is grotesque when one uses the generality to dictate what other people's behaviors "should be".

Of course everyone is unique and things impact people differently. Most people who suffer some emotional trauma will not put a gun to themselves in order to end their life.

Why does that have anything at all to do with someone who does?

If this guy killed himself because of financial troubles, he is a coward.

Maybe. Maybe he has a large insurance policy on his own life that will at least get his own family out of trouble. (and no, not all insurance policies have exclusion clauses for suicide. The exclusion clauses for suicide in the policies my company sells expire after two years.)

If he killed himself in order to save a burning building full of children, he is a hero. The judgments are left up to us to make for ourselves.

And when those judgments are based on insufficient information, what do you call that?

Unless you have severe brain damage, everyone has notions of how everyone should act in general. Everyone who has these notions of how people should act doesn't like it when someone is acting outside of their expectations.

Drop the "everyone" bit. You're not a mind reader. You don't know the first thing about what "everyone" thinks.

Go ahead and say it, we already know. You have notions of how everyone should act in general. You don't like it when someone is acting outside of your expectations. That's all right. You're not a bad person for thinking that way. It is okay to be wrong.

And yes, my explanation for them is that they are idiots when they commit needless acts of self violence.

But if they were unable to act otherwise, why judge them at all?

I'm not trying to provide proof of anything.

Of course not. Nothing you've posted in this thread has the slightest bit of reason or evidence behind it, that is perfectly clear.

People who commit suicide are on the outside of the bell curve...

Wait- I thought you were "not trying to provide proof of anything"- this implies that you have some kind of statistical analysis to which you are referring. Or are you ignorant that the term "bell curve" wasn't just some "general" metaphoric device, but actually meant something specific?

and I'm entitled to my opinion and interpretation of their actions.

You are certainly allowed to be wrong, yes. And as arrogant and ignorant as you please. You can even wave it around for everyone to laugh at, as you do here.

Most people don't commit suicide. Of those who do, many kill themselves for what I see as idiotic and unnecessary reasons.

And you are fully aware of all their motivations, are you? How?

 

[bookitty]

I'm entitled to my opinion. I never said they should just grow a pair and not kill themselves. Still, from my view, much of the rationale for suicide strikes me as idiotic.

I'm not trying to provide proof of anything. People who commit suicide are on the outside of the bell curve and I'm entitled to my opinion and interpretation of their actions. And I'm definitely not ignorant to the fact that they were simply unable to cope with their given circumstances.

Most people don't commit suicide. Of those who do, many kill themselves for what I see as idiotic and unnecessary reasons.

I see. Since every person should have the same reaction to stimulus, any deviation from that makes them an idiot. Of course, it doesn't matter what happened before the event that made them an idiot-suicide because they should have already dealt with it.

After all, it's so very, very easy for these idiots to get help. So what if there is bias against people (excuse me, potential idiots) who experience depression. They really just need to deal with it, right? Then again, your well-researched and hyper-empathetic approach should take care of any need for treatment.