A fundy committed suicide.

[slingblade]

I'd think it would be easy to get off that high horse, considering it's dead.

I dunno, Toad, you lost me, there...

 

[slingblade]

Don't ever do anything rash to yourself like suicide. I and the rest of the forum would miss you too much. I know the reasons behind some of your pain. Do us all a favor and keep a stiff upper lip. Take the pain. Remember. Your worth every second you are here with us.

Thank you, buddy. I work at it every day, I promise you.

 

[willhaven]

Great. Do you want to address the numerous fallacies which soley constitute your "opinion"?

No, that's why it's my opinion and not a fact. I'm not really interested in attempting to convince anyone that my opinion on suicide is correct.

These are evaluating the strength and quality of your behaviour. Not the content of your character.

As is my position on suicide really. It's the behavior I'm evaluating and not the character as much. The guy I knew, he was intelligent. He can't be both intelligent and an idiot, though I would evaluate his behavior as idiotic. As I would with most suicides.

This is a GUESS. It even says it is a guess. A guess is not a judgement, opinion, or conclusion.

Your statement of me is an opinion. It is not a judgment or a conclusion. My opinion on this man in question is not a judgment or a conclusion. It is an opinion.

Now we're defining judgment and opinion as different within this debate. What I was trying to wrangle you into earlier is that you or anyone else is practically incapable of not forming opinions of people and things around them, even if the evidence to generate that opinion is tentative and incomplete. Even if it is a guess, we all have opinions of just about everything we encounter.

In any case, let's put this distraction to bed. Even if I have or in the future will make prejudicial judgements, it means nothing regarding the quality or factuality of your own argument.

What I was trying to argue is that we all make opinions. I wasn't trying to argue that my opinion is correct. You have also had opinions about this man and the situation that may or may not be true.

No indeed. Very often they aren't. What baffles me is why one would continue to defend one so clearly unfactual.

I don't ask you to defend your opinion that he was probably in emotional pain. I just wanted to point out that you have also formed some tentative opinion just like I have.

Tu quoque again. "I may be racist, but so's everyone I know".

Prejudice is not necessarily racism. And still, the word prejudice doesn't apply to this debate as well as opinion does.

What if the person was only assaulted once? Or only repeatedly assaulted by only one black man? Or had never been assaulted at all, but only intimidated by a black guy he knew once? Is that okay too?

Regardless of the circumstances, if you have a previous experience with something, it should shape how you perceive it in the future. I think not doing that is called amnesia.

 

[Piscivore]

No, that's why it's my opinion and not a fact. I'm not really interested in attempting to convince anyone that my opinion on suicide is correct.

I should hope not, given that this opinion is by your own admission based soley on ignorance and emotional factors. My question to you is, if you know- by your own admission- that your opinion is very likely wrong, why do you hold it at all?

Your statement of me is an opinion. It is not a judgment or a conclusion. My opinion on this man in question is not a judgment or a conclusion. It is an opinion.

Now we're defining judgment and opinion as different within this debate. What I was trying to wrangle you into earlier is that you or anyone else is practically incapable of not forming opinions of people and things around them, even if the evidence to generate that opinion is tentative and incomplete. Even if it is a guess, we all have opinions of just about everything we encounter.

What I was trying to argue is that we all make opinions. I wasn't trying to argue that my opinion is correct. You have also had opinions about this man and the situation that may or may not be true.

I don't ask you to defend your opinion that he was probably in emotional pain. I just wanted to point out that you have also formed some tentative opinion just like I have.

That's still all just tu quoque. It doesn't matter if I or "everyone" forms or has opinions. It doesn't make yours correct, or even meaningful. So why bother with it?

Why did you avoid responding to this part of my previous post?
"It is not that a "judgement" or "opinion" exists that is the problem. It is the fallacious basis on which it is formed- just the same as the "opinion" that ID is more valid than evolution, or the "opinion" that a large undiscovered biped roams the Pacific Northwest, or the "opinion" that black people are inferior."

Prejudice is not necessarily racism.

No, indeed not.

And still, the word prejudice doesn't apply to this debate as well as opinion does.

"Prejudice" is a kind of opinion.
"1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable."

By your own admission, your "opinion" of suicides is preconcieved, without knowledge, and only modified later if and when you actually know something. That's textbook prejudice. My question is, why do you find it useful?

 

[thaiboxerken]

My problem is this. He won't be doing anything anymore. He won't be supporting his widow and child. He won't be a son to his parents. Yes I felt relieved but I'm not selfish and cruel enough to be happy that he did something so selfish and foolish.

Would you feel the same way if he was a suicide bomber?

 

[willhaven]

I should hope not, given that this opinion is by your own admission based soley on ignorance and emotional factors. My question to you is, if you know- by your own admission- that your opinion is very likely wrong, why do you hold it at all?

Because, given my typical opinion, it will likely end up being a typical "idiotic" suicide for me. Because I generally find them to be. I haven't come to a conclusion, but chances are I would have my expected reaction when I learn more details.

In other words, in my terms, it is likely that I will find this guy to be an idiot. Which is my opinion. I may not get what I expect, but that doesn't make me likely to be wrong. But since I'm going to weigh the merits of this suicide on my own terms, I am likely to find his motives to be idiotic. According to me anyway.

Just because my expectations differ from yours doesn't mean I'm likely to be wrong. If you shared my expectations, you'd expect that I may very well be right. It's a perception issue on your part.

That's still all just tu quoque. It doesn't matter if I or "everyone" forms or has opinions. It doesn't make yours correct, or even meaningful. So why bother with it?

You make opinions based on incomplete information too. Why bother? Your opinions are no more or less correct or meaningful than mine unless they happen to be a fact. Honestly, I don't really think I had much choice in forming a tentative opinion of the man in question. The information was presented to me and I don't really have much choice as to how I feel when I take it in. It is what it is.

Why did you avoid responding to this part of my previous post?
"It is not that a "judgement" or "opinion" exists that is the problem. It is the fallacious basis on which it is formed- just the same as the "opinion" that ID is more valid than evolution, or the "opinion" that a large undiscovered biped roams the Pacific Northwest, or the "opinion" that black people are inferior."

Because we can't possibly know all things. There are things we encounter that we take in the general case as being true because we either don't have the time or ability to know it in more detail. We must still function in the world without knowing all things to be facts, so we use generalizations, opinions and presumptions in lieu of fact.

I never said my opinion was complete, a fact, or not fallacious. It's just my opinion. Why make it in the first place? I didn't really decide to make my opinion of this man. I was made aware of his story and I formed an opinion. I then posted my opinion here because that's what this place is for and I find it entertaining to waste my time on the internet after work.

What more do you want to know?

"Prejudice" is a kind of opinion.
"1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable."

By your own admission, your "opinion" of suicides is preconcieved, without knowledge, and only modified later if and when you actually know something. That's textbook prejudice. My question is, why do you find it useful?

If we're going to use the very general case of prejudice in place of opinion, then I have pointed out above many cases in which you have used textbook prejudice/judgment/opinions without complete evidence as well. Why do you find it useful?

Now, to answer you. I find it useful because there is no way that I can know all things about the world or about all people. I don't believe that human beings can function without simplifying their world by using generalizations and preconceived notions. Human beings operate on the expectation that much of the world around them is based on rules that are generally true. We compare new data with previous data to see if it fits.

Now, why do I find it useful to have an opinion of this man? I don't find it useful really. I'm not really sure I had a choice in forming an opinion.

 

[Soapy Sam]

There is a danger in forming such reflexive opinions- that they will be wrong in a specific case and get us in trouble.

Equally, there is a danger in NOT forming them- that we miss patterns of human behaviour (and other things) which would have advised us what to expect in specific cases.

The danger to groups, nations and mankind is that we form such opinions through indoctrination rather than observation, then fail to test them against later reality.

That's what religions can be at their worst, or dogmatic belief systems of any kind.
The herd creates it's own perceived reality which, through mutual reinforcement, drifts constantly further out of synch with actual reality.

You rarely see debates like this one on religious or believer sites, though there are often debates about fine points of meaning in scripture.

 

[Cainkane1]

Thank you, buddy. I work at it every day, I promise you.

You're welcome.

 

[Cainkane1]

I'd think it would be easy to get off that high horse, considering it's dead.

I'm not sure I understand this Toad.