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Moon Hoax conspiracy

skepticalcriticalguy said:
I'd like to know them. It's an interesting topic, and I'd like to know. Thanks.
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Fair enough. First off, there's the Laser Ranging Retroreflector (see http://everything2.org/index.pl?node_id=961371&lastnode_id=0 ). In a nutshell, it consists of reflecting equipment the Apollo astronauts left on the moon. Several observatories around the world use it to bounce lasers off of, to very accurately measure the earth/moon distance. It's something that can be verified by anyone with a powerful enough laser. So there it is, absolute irrefutable proof we've been to the moon, just sitting there for all to see (sort of). If we never went to the moon, how did the LRR get there?

Second, there's the moon rocks. They have a unique chemical composition that could not have been formed on earth (for example, see http://microscopy.fsu.edu/publications/pdf/rocks.pdf ). Thus these rocks had to come from Somewhere Else. It's true that a few moon rocks have been found here on earth, the results of being blasted off by some lunar impact. But nothing in the abundant quantities brought back by the astronauts. So somehow or another, we had to get those rocks off the moon and back here in earth. There's no other way to explain their presence here, short of a helpful alien. (I probably shouldn't have said that.)

Anyway, that's two facts that cannot be explained away by the most elaborate and imaginative of moon hoax theories. That's why they appear to be simply ignored by CT'ers; there's just no possible way around them.
 
Stellafane said:
Hi ER. There's been some banter back and forth in this thread about who may or may not need an astronomy class. As it turns out, I am an astronomer, as my nick indicates. And if you're really willing to listen and learn about this topic, I can point out a couple of facts that prove -- absolutely, without any shadow of any doubt -- that we have been to the moon and back. I'm also comfortably certain that I can answer any questions you may have that cause you to believe the Apollo landings were hoaxed.

Are you willing to discuss it? Or is that not the point of your posting here?
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Please point out those facts that absolutely prove it. I really want to hear them.
 
Stellafane said:
Fair enough. First off, there's the Laser Ranging Retroreflector (see http://everything2.org/index.pl?node_id=961371&lastnode_id=0 ). In a nutshell, it consists of reflecting equipment the Apollo astronauts left on the moon. Several observatories around the world use it to bounce lasers off of, to very accurately measure the earth/moon distance. It's something that can be verified by anyone with a powerful enough laser. So there it is, absolute irrefutable proof we've been to the moon, just sitting there for all to see (sort of). If we never went to the moon, how did the LRR get there?
Click to expand...

How do we know it was a manned craft that left the reflector?

Second, there's the moon rocks. They have a unique chemical composition that could not have been formed on earth (for example, see http://microscopy.fsu.edu/publications/pdf/rocks.pdf ). Thus these rocks had to come from Somewhere Else. It's true that a few moon rocks have been found here on earth, the results of being blasted off by some lunar impact. But nothing in the abundant quantities brought back by the astronauts. So somehow or another, we had to get those rocks off the moon and back here in earth. There's no other way to explain their presence here, short of a helpful alien. (I probably shouldn't have said that.)
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How do you know they werent collected by an unmanned craft, or fell to earth as meteorites?
 
ERichardson said:
How do we know it was a manned craft that left the reflector?

How do you know they werent collected by an unmanned craft, or fell to earth as meteorites?
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how about the apollo astronauts reports of the eye flashes in the van allen belt? how would they know about this if they hadnt been there?
 
So now we have a faked Apollo landing, and a real, secret, unmanned mission to the moon.

Secret launch, secret project, secret budget...
 
If you're going to fake it, why risk faking it 9 times?

It wasn't just the landings that went through the Van Allen belts. 8 & 10 thru 17 all did. Not sure if 7 & 9's orbits were that high.

If someone was going to try to pull off this kind of hoax, they definitely wouldn't attempt a repeat performance never mind several repeat performances. The risk of being found out has to go up with each attempt.
 
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ERichardson said:
How do we know it was a manned craft that left the reflector?
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Because such a device does require manual alignment. With modern technology, we probably could easily make a robot that does this automatically. But given the technology of the era, which YOU made an issue earlier, that was not going to happen.

How do you know they werent collected by an unmanned craft,
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Yeah, right. They've got a 6 foot CORE SAMPLE! What unmaneed craft did that? They also, all told, have 800 KILOGRAMS of Moon rocks. The only unmanned carft to collect samples from the moon up to that point was the Russian craft that brough back something like 18 GRAMS of MOON DUST.

or fell to earth as meteorites?
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Right, A 6 foot CORE SAMPLE, fell to Earth. Also, you realise that Moon meteorites have very distinct differences to the Moon rocks Apollo brought back?

FURTHERMORE, the total number of Moon meteorites found to date on Earth is less than maybe a few Kilos, at most. The only thing rarer is Mars Meteorites.

Don't make me laugh. Start thinking and stop knee-jerking to scientific proof.

Would someone quote me so the scardey cat can see what it means to him when he doesn't think things through?
 
ERichardson said:
How do we know it was a manned craft that left the reflector?
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OK, I think we may be getting somewhere. It's not impossible that an unmanned mission left the reflectors. On the other hand, such a mission would have entailed all the same navigational issues some CT'ers insist couldn't be done with 1969 technology. It would also require very precise setup of relatively delicate optical quipment, something that was probably a lot easier for a human to do than robot technology could have done at the time. So if the LRR proves that at an utter minimum we successfully sent an unmanned mission to the moon, at exactly the same time we claimed we sent a manned mission there, how much exactly is left of the hoax theory?

ERichardson said:
How do you know they werent collected by an unmanned craft, or fell to earth as meteorites?
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Again, if they were collected by an unmanned mission, it proves that at a minimum we successfully overcame all the technological obstacles to sending a craft to the moon. Not only that, we managed to selectively scoop up a variety of rocks taken from different locations on the moon, and (even more impressive) returned them to earth undamaged. That's basically the Apollo mission, without the human hitch hiker, isn't it? And although (as I mentioned) some small lunar fragments have fallen to earth over the millenia, none have done so in the quantities that the astronauts brought back. In addition, rocks of meteoric origin bear unmistakable evidence of their fiery and traumatic trip through earth's atmosphere. The Apollo lunar rocks didn't. So they had to have been brought back gently.

So when you accept the inescapable reality of the LRR and lunar rocks, the only thing moon hoaxer theorists have left is that we did everything we said we did, only maybe humans didn't go, just the rockets and landers. So you have to toss out all the conspiracy "evidence" (such as lack of computing power) that claims such a trip was impossible. After you do that, what's left? And since you are forced to accept that the missions successfully went to the moon and back, you're also forced to ponder the inevitable question: if we had the capability to complete a lunar round trip, pulling off some very delicate technological stunts along the way, why not send humans along for the ride?
 
ERichardson said:
Glad you mentioned the plates. Why are the photos taken on the moon not affected by radiation?
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i would guess the same reason they had to bring special equipment to measure the radiation, normal film isnt effected by it

so have you dropped the claim of this being your first exposure to moon landing conspiracies?
 
ERichardson said:
Glad you mentioned the plates. Why are the photos taken on the moon not affected by radiation?
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Hasselbad made protected film cartridges. They may not have been required. There's a big difference between open film plates and film in a preloaded cartridge. Different types of film also make big differences.
 
kookbreaker said:
Hasselbad made protected film cartridges. They may not have been required. There's a big difference between open film plates and film in a preloaded cartridge. Different types of film also make big differences.
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or that too

all i know is ive sent cameras and film through xrays at the airport and never had problems
 
Stellafane said:
OK, I think we may be getting somewhere. It's not impossible that an unmanned mission left the reflectors. On the other hand, such a mission would have entailed all the same navigational issues some CT'ers insist couldn't be done with 1969 technology. It would also require very precise setup of relatively delicate optical quipment, something that was probably a lot easier for a human to do than robot technology could have done at the time. So if the LRR proves that at an utter minimum we successfully sent an unmanned mission to the moon, at exactly the same time we claimed we sent a manned mission there, how much exactly is left of the hoax theory?



Again, if they were collected by an unmanned mission, it proves that at a minimum we successfully overcame all the technological obstacles to sending a craft to the moon. Not only that, we managed to selectively scoop up a variety of rocks taken from different locations on the moon, and (even more impressive) returned them to earth undamaged. That's basically the Apollo mission, without the human hitch hiker, isn't it? And although (as I mentioned) some small lunar fragments have fallen to earth over the millenia, none have done so in the quantities that the astronauts brought back. In addition, rocks of meteoric origin bear unmistakable evidence of their fiery and traumatic trip through earth's atmosphere. The Apollo lunar rocks didn't. So they had to have been brought back gently.

So when you accept the inescapable reality of the LRR and lunar rocks, the only thing moon hoaxer theorists have left is that we did everything we said we did, only maybe humans didn't go, just the rockets and landers. So you have to toss out all the conspiracy "evidence" (such as lack of computing power) that claims such a trip was impossible. After you do that, what's left? And since you are forced to accept that the missions successfully went to the moon and back, you're also forced to ponder the inevitable question: if we had the capability to complete a lunar round trip, pulling off some very delicate technological stunts along the way, why not send humans along for the ride?
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Because human life is a bit more precious than a tin can with a computer on it.
 
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