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Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire III

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Er, you, Smart Cooky and catsmate are the ones who think 'Bitcoin Bertie' with 517 followers is a verified source that the vehicle in question was a JLR Sport 2014!



'Bitcoin Bertie'! Laughing out loud,
As a non-user of twitter I have to ask: how did you establish that a particular user sharing a video is (or claims to be) the originator of that video? Did he say 'I was there and grabbed this video' or similar?

If they claim to be the one who witnessed the event and took the video, why exactly does it matter how many followers they have on social media?

What exactly made you think their video is 'probably a deepfake'?

If I saw and recorded a notable event would you dismiss it as deep fake because I have zero Twitter followers?
 
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That fact someone sees flames in a photo or video that look like lithium flames does not mean they are a 'conspiracy theorist'. Perhaps they just happen to have better powers of observation than people who do not look but need a caption to tell them what they are looking at.

Please explain the defining features of a Lithium flame that would distinguish it from a flame of any other type that might be expected from a vehicle on fire.

Please also explain how you came to the conclusion that the flame in these particular images was a Lithium flame with detailed reference to the RGB colour balance, brightness contrast and angular resolution properties of the CCD chip, the settings of the camera, the processing software, and your monitor that allowed you to note the specific qualities of the flame in question.

Thank you in advance.
 
Please explain the defining features of a Lithium flame that would distinguish it from a flame of any other type that might be expected from a vehicle on fire.

Please also explain how you came to the conclusion that the flame in these particular images was a Lithium flame with detailed reference to the RGB colour balance, brightness contrast and angular resolution properties of the CCD chip, the settings of the camera, the processing software, and your monitor that allowed you to note the specific qualities of the flame in question.

Thank you in advance.

... and see if you can tell whether the Range Rover was blue with black smoke or white with gold flames.
 
That fact someone sees flames in a photo or video that look like lithium flames does not mean they are a 'conspiracy theorist'. Perhaps they just happen to have better powers of observation...


Row 2, column 1.

...than people who do not look but need a caption to tell them what they are looking at.


Row 1, column 4.
 
I think 'Twitter/X' is close enough to 'Daily Mail reader comments' that we can allow it.
I wonder if Vixen remembers repeatedly making scornful snarky remarks about how her detractors get their news from the Daily Mail.

When no-one was referencing the Daily Mail.

And here she is, not referencing the toilet of journalist that is the Daily Mail, but the comments sections of the Daily Mail website.

And she boasts about how she's such a dedicated skilled researcher. It's pathetic.
 
The original meaning of conspire or conspiracy is to plot something bad or unlawful It does not mean 'someone I disagree with' or 'matters in dispute'.


As noted, yet again, you responded to my post pointing out that you were conflating the terms "conspiracy" and "conspiracy theory" by conflating the terms "conspiracy" and "conspiracy theory." :rolleyes:

Also as noted, despite your repeatedly and loudly proclaiming it, we're not calling you a conspiracy theorist because we disagree with you. We're calling you a conspiracy theorist because you're behaving like a conspiracy theorist.

Don't confuse conspiracy theory with scandal, which Watergate was.


I'd be careful about whom I accused of being confused, considering that I said Watergate was a conspiracy, and Pearl Harbor LIHOP is a conspiracy theory. Do you truly not understand the difference, or the point I was trying to make?

Whilst some might consider it a bad thing if a politician profits financially from his or her own policies, if it is commonplace, as it is in recent UK history, then it is more to do with principles , ethics, governance and transparency. If Sunak gets away with, say, profitting by investing in Tata JLR - and we cannot check because he has put all of his business interests - including his own Cayman Islands listed company - on to a blind register, with the ostensible claim this is done as a virtue as he has given up any direct oversight or stewardship of his own investments, plus he sold his shares in Infosys back to his wife. So that's OK then!!! (We are told.)


I'm certainly not an expert in British law, but I have difficulty imagining that what you're accusing Sunak of (ordering the press not to report that an EV caused the fire to avoid a personal financial loss) isn't flat-out illegal, and that Labour and the other opposition parties wouldn't be shouting it from the rooftops, calling for a public inquiry, calling a no-confidence vote, etc.

As for the hilited, as has been pointed out to you several times, the term you want here is "blind trust." (IIRC someone from the UK stated that a "blind register" is a list of people eligible for disability pensions due to visual impairment.) You even acknowledged this at one point. And despite your continued insinuation of obfuscatory intent, the purpose of a blind trust is to insulate a politician from just such conflicts of interest as you accuse Sunak of having.

Based on the recent history of Sunak and contemporaneous UK government ministers, and the financial scandals surrounding them . . .


See above.

. . . together with a good acquaintance with economic affairs and how the British press works . . .


I dispute your claim to have either of these. First, you have demonstrated neither, and, if anything, you've demonstrated the opposite. Second, even leaving aside the fact that I and others with accounting experience have questioned several of your pronouncements on the subject, being an expert accountant doesn't necessarily give one "a good acquaintance with economic affairs." And you've previously claimed that you're exempt from the Dunning-Kruger effect, which only further calls your claims of expertise into question.

And no, I'm not being abusive or mean by telling you that you're not the expert you purport to be. That's simply a fact relevant to the discussion, even if you find having it pointed out to you unpleasant.

I don't believe my views are a 'conspiracy theory' because it is in plain sight that the identity of the vehicle is being withheld from the public and the only explanation would be Sunak via the government protecting his/its interests, given that in past car fires, the vehicle was identified by the press and not concealed.


Like most conspiracy theorists, you have great difficulty distinguishing between the evidence ("the exact make and model of the vehicle has not yet been reported") and your interpretation of the evidence ("the identity of the vehicle is being withheld from the public" for nefarious purposes).

The more is emphasised it is not an EV of any sort involved, the more it raises suspicions, given people can see what is in the airport CCTV for themselves.


What Jay said.
 
I wonder if Vixen remembers repeatedly making scornful snarky remarks about how her detractors get their news from the Daily Mail.

When no-one was referencing the Daily Mail.

And here she is, not referencing the toilet of journalist that is the Daily Mail, but the comments sections of the Daily Mail website.


She's referencing the Wail itself as well:
 
To a poet, every word has a meaning (not that I am saying I am a poet) but I share that view. People use terms and they know not the meaning of the term.

Every word has a meaning. Gosh, poets have deep insights unfamiliar to us common folk.

To be sure, many words have several meanings (some poets might use this fact) and phrases may have different meanings than their constituent parts might suggest. "Conspiracy theory", for instance, might just mean something different than "a theory about a conspiracy".
 
To a poet, every word has a meaning (not that I am saying I am a poet) but I share that view. People use terms and they know not the meaning of the term.
...

Forgive her, Lord, for she knows not what she's talking about.
 
Why do you even bother persisting with this? Truth be told, the repetition of it is getting a bit irritating..

Because its exceptionally rude of her and I want to highlight it.

You're right of course, the repetition is boring.
 
Every word has a meaning. Gosh, poets have deep insights unfamiliar to us common folk.

To be sure, many words have several meanings (some poets might use this fact) and phrases may have different meanings than their constituent parts might suggest. "Conspiracy theory", for instance, might just mean something different than "a theory about a conspiracy".

HumptyVixen

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master——that's all.”
 
As a non-user of twitter I have to ask: how did you establish that a particular user sharing a video is (or claims to be) the originator of that video? Did he say 'I was there and grabbed this video' or similar?

If they claim to be the one who witnessed the event and took the video, why exactly does it matter how many followers they have on social media?

What exactly made you think their video is 'probably a deepfake'?

If I saw and recorded a notable event would you dismiss it as deep fake because I have zero Twitter followers?

There are only two sources I have seen for that video and they both appeared circa 12 Oct 2023 on X-twitter, uncredited and with the claim it was verified on DVLA as a RR Sport 2014. If this is true, as catsmate claims it is, how come no-one is able to provide a reliable source? What is the problem with BF&RS confirming it? ISTM the sole aim of the revelation was to rule out an EV of any sort, as JLR didn't start with the mild hybrids until sometime after 2014. People were identifying a JLR Evoque from the airport CCTV release with a very short numberplate albeit pixellated. So ISTM that whoever claimed it was a JLR Sport 2014 was eager to rule out the Evoque, which has been constantly recalled by JLR as faulty and did have an EV version.

What confirms the video as a likely deep fake is:
  • It is uncredited
  • it shows a completely different perspective than the 'oficial' airport CCTV clip
  • It claims to show a conventional numberplate which someone on twitter claims they managed to decipher and look up on DVLA.
  • No mainstream media has picked up on this JLR Sport 2014 claim or video, which indicates it cannot be verified as authentic.

It's possible it has not been published for 'reasons of privacy' or alternatively, was put out for the express purpose of misinformation. If it is confidential material for whatever legal reason, X-Twitter has not taken it down, as it usually would.
 
Please explain the defining features of a Lithium flame that would distinguish it from a flame of any other type that might be expected from a vehicle on fire.

Please also explain how you came to the conclusion that the flame in these particular images was a Lithium flame with detailed reference to the RGB colour balance, brightness contrast and angular resolution properties of the CCD chip, the settings of the camera, the processing software, and your monitor that allowed you to note the specific qualities of the flame in question.

Thank you in advance.

This has all been covered extensively in threads I and II.

To sum up:

  • the situation of a lithium battery, if it was one, would have been located exactly where the flames can be seen in the airport video.
  • the flames are being 'thrown' out as they would in a lithium-ion fire.
  • the flames are crimson (metallic, and a lithium characteristic), orange and yellow, with white/grey smoke , also characteristic of lithium.
  • diesel, plastics and tyre flames give off thick black smoke and only ignite at circa 500ºC.
  • If the fire was due to vapour in the fuel tank (at the back of the vehicle) that would ignite as a fireball as at the tank.
  • If as is claimed it was 'probably' an electrical fault, then if the power train was involved (say, from leaking diesel fuel or accelerants, such as antifreeze fluid or brake fluid the flames would most likely fan out from the centre of the car in a V-shape.
  • The flames in the CCTV airport clip fan out from the left hand lower passenger seat side ONLY as of that stage.
  • Arriving firemen decided it was too dangerous to remain in the building owing to noxious fumes - characteristic again of lithium battery fire. ( Five firefighters hospitalised and one airport staff.)
  • A lithium-ion car battery does not need heat to catch fire. It can be a simple case of going over a speed bump and causing instability between a couple of cells within the battery to cause a self-oxygenating thermal runway.
  • such a fire cannot just be put out by ordinary means as water could cause a hydrogen based explosion.
  • Such a fire cannot be put out quickly it can burn for hours and even resume after a few days of appearing dormant.

If it was a 'diesel-fuelled only' vehicle it is quite a coincidence it matches a lithium-ion car fire exactly, even if it was an 'electrical fault' exacerbated perhaps by a leaking accelerant, as was the case at Newark Airport.

Other factors include the floors collapsing, which may or may not be to do with the incredibly high temperatures which would be reached in a lithium-ion car battery fire (2,000º) for the steel structure to give way (1,250ºC depending on type) and at least 600ºC is needed for the concrete to spall, much higher for it to melt completely away. It could be argued the combined temperature of several rows of parked cars, including EV-types would cause such a temperature. However, the construction company, Buckingham Group, were extremely experienced in large scale building works, including two premier league football stadia left unfinished, which indicates they would be well aware of public fire safety standards, especially after the Liverpool ECHO Fire 2018/19 and the ensuing recommendations in the Fire Report. Rows of parked cars would be a risk factor in the car park design and in choosing the strength of materials used in the infrastructure. The company did go into administration (or, rather a petition was applied for) five weeks before the fire. It seems water pipes had been installed but a sprinkler system never implemented, as was recommended from the Liverpool report. It is not mandatory to have one in a carpark. It could however point to Bucking Group skimping on material and labour due to its insolvent status and inability to pay suppliers and other creditors. So that could explain the various collapses. However, the car park was built within one year and post-Liverpool Fire recommendations, and bearing in mind Luton is a major international airport, with a nearby main motorway and main railway station (Luton is categorized as a 'London Airport', so you can imagine the sheer footfall and number of people on any given day, meaning safety would be of the highest paramount importance.

An ordinary diesel fire in a car wherein the driver was still present and able to call for help immediately should not have caused such devastation. Therefore, if it was NOT a lithium-ion fire of any sort, an explanation is required. And it had better be good.
 
What confirms the video as a likely deep fake is:

[*]It is uncredited
So what? It wasn't shot by a journalist covering a story - it was shot by someone walking through an airport parking garage. The internet is like 50% uncredited pictures of people's cats. This is not a proof of fakery.

[*]it shows a completely different perspective than the 'oficial' airport CCTV clip
Utter ********. See column N row 3 and column I row 5.

You can't tell whether the floor is sloping one way or the other without some photogrammetric reference point - which you don't have. And you're claim about the painted lines being in different locations is falsified just by measuring them with a straight edge. You're just not very good with geometry. But you've already reached the conclusion you want and you can't admit you're wrong, so you're just going to pretend no one has pointed that out.

[*]It claims to show a conventional numberplate which someone on twitter claims they managed to decipher and look up on DVLA.
Probably from a higher resolution copy. Again, is the person who posted that image the person who took it? Is that the first and only time it's been seen?

And it simply confirms what is known from the first image, that it's a Range Rover, which is either a Sport or Evoque based on the shape and taillight configuration. What nefarious purpose does this supposed deep-fake mean to accomplish? What does providing another image that simply confirms what's obvious from first accomplish? Care to explain?

[*]No mainstream media has picked up on this JLR Sport 2014 claim or video, which indicates it cannot be verified as authentic.
No, it just means that no mainstream media (that you can find) has sought out the rights to the image. You're acting as though everyone else sees this as some twisted mystery the same way you do. Conspiracy theorists always feel like everyone else is supposed to take their crackpot ideas as seriously as they do, but to the news media, it's just another accidental fire that led to a lot of insurance claims.

EDITOR: Do we have a picture of that pile-up on I-95?

REPORTER: Yep.

EDITOR: But do we have every single image any bystander posted on social media?

It's possible it has not been published for 'reasons of privacy' or alternatively, was put out for the express purpose of misinformation. If it is confidential material for whatever legal reason, X-Twitter has not taken it down, as it usually would.
It could be some mundane reason... But it could be aliens!
 
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