Cont: Jogging in Georgia while black - The Trial

[JoeMorgue]

Yeah at the end of the day despite getting the "good" outcome when everything was said and done that doesn't change the fact that literally the only reason these 3 even made it to trail was because they were dumb enough to make a student film of their crime is pretty goddamn depressing.

 

[Suddenly]

Yeah at the end of the day despite getting the "good" outcome when everything was said and done that doesn't change the fact that literally the only reason these 3 even made it to trail was because they were dumb enough to make a student film of their crime is pretty goddamn depressing.

Frustrating, really. Same as when DNA catches out wrongful convictions. There is never the political will to recognize that this case wasn't at all unique and represents a trend worth exploring. The feeling that "the system worked this time" shouldn't be a good feeling.

 

[Thermal]

Meh, not really.

The open carry and citizen's arrest veneers were never a good faith interpretation of the law or the facts. The DA has a lot of discretion and there's very little way to write the law to mitigate the damage that can be done if prosecutors/cops don't want to enforce the law. Their self defense / citizen's arrest claims only worked in the black box that is a the DA's discretion. In an open and adversarial trial, it collapsed spectacularly.

The whole exercise was a pencil whipping to coverup a plainly illegal killing. I don't think the actual letter of the law matters much here compared to the corrupt intent of the people working the case. DA's are probably the most important office holder anyone in this country can vote for, the power they wield is immense and frequently has very little oversight.

Oh, agreed. One of my first comments on the original thread was that the DA should be strung up by the short hairs for her involvement in the cover up, and one of my last was that she should be rotting in a cell for conspiracy, not for the pissant charges she faces.

What needs to happen in the abstract, in order to close this barn door preemptively, is clarify the open carry laws for long guns. In my beloved NJ, long guns must be slung, or broke open and unloaded if a break action. This applies mostly to shotguns in hunting season, as general open carry of anything is not really a thing here (very technically possibly legal to open carry a long gun but simply doesn't happen).

Once the video was released the whole coverup collapsed rapidly. It was a work of legal fiction that, thankfully, did not survive after the video was released to the public.

Once again, I am very thankful these idiots told on themselves in such a catastrophic way. They were absolutely going to get away with this lynching had they had the good sense to memory hole the snuff film.

Again, agreed. I like to imagine imagine Roddy sitting in the prison yard, wondering if he could have done something differently...

 

[JoeMorgue]

Frustrating, really. Same as when DNA catches out wrongful convictions. There is never the political will to recognize that this case wasn't at all unique and represents a trend worth exploring. The feeling that "the system worked this time" shouldn't be a good feeling.

Which is why while I, of course, want to see both parties punishes if you put a gun to my head and told me to choose if the 3 perps are found guilty or the original DA that just buried the incident in the first place is found guilty... I'd have to think about it.

Like I said she just going "What black guy gunned down in the street by 3 armed white men? How could this even be a crime you're wasting my time" is more representative of a failure of the system.

Again to clarify I hope she goes down as hard as the 3 men do, none of them are innocent.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Nurses, and even most physicians, aren't qualified to make psychiatric diagnoses. If they didn't send him to a psychiatrist, that by itself raises doubts about the claim.

Yeah...I seemed to have missed that part Nurse Practitioners (the part you didn't hilite) are the equivalent of physicians. Some ARE qualified to make psychiatric diagnoses. Nurses of levels below NP aren't qualified to make ANY sort of diagnosis.

And even if he been correctly diagnosed, so what? He quite rationally ran from armed men who were trying to capture him, and tried to defend himself when he couldn't run any more. How do you think that helps the McMichaels?

Saying Arbery was diagnosed schitzo adds credibility to the claim that the murderers were actually defending themselves from a certified whacko who they did not fire at till he charged them. The problem is that schizophrenics are not generally violent. But some are, and the defense merely needs to get Arbery in that minority class to back their claim.

No. It does not nor would have helped the killers the slightest little bit. The possible mental dysfunctions of Arbery were ENTIRELY irrelevant to the question of whether the Bryan and the McMichaels had witnessed an actual crime and had sufficient grounds for citizen's arrest before they threatened, ran down, and killed Arbery. It was my presumption and remains my current understanding that the diagnosis was left out of the trial BECAUSE it was both irrelevant and potentially capable of arousing prejudice on the part of jurors (i.e. prejudicial).

It is, however, potentially relevant to the question of what Arbery was doing while being chased. Some of you are presuming that Arbery had all the options available to him that any other adult male would have. And that is not necessarily the case.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Yeah at the end of the day despite getting the "good" outcome when everything was said and done that doesn't change the fact that literally the only reason these 3 even made it to trail was because they were dumb enough to make a student film of their crime is pretty goddamn depressing.

If you want to see something super-depressing some time, take a look at clearance rates. If you kill somebody in the US, you have a nearly 50% probability of getting away with it without even being charged. If you rape someone or burn their house down, you have nearly a 70% chance of getting away with it without charges. (Depending on who or where you are. Any hopes of getting justice tend to go down when the victim is darker-skinned)

 

[Bob001]

Yeah...I seemed to have missed that part Nurse Practitioners (the part you didn't hilite) are the equivalent of physicians. Some ARE qualified to make psychiatric diagnoses. Nurses of levels below NP aren't qualified to make ANY sort of diagnosis.
.....

I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole, but NPs are not the same as physicians. They may perform many of the same routine tasks that physicians perform, but they don't graduate from medical school and then spend four to seven years in specialty residencies. And even a physician who is not a psychiatrist is not qualified to make a psychiatric diagnosis. I don't know anything about what happened here, but if he wasn't diagnosed by a board-certified psychiatrist, then whatever a nurse and an NP decided is speculation.

 

[Shadowdweller]

I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole, but NPs are not the same as physicians. They may perform many of the same routine tasks that physicians perform, but they don't graduate from medical school and then spend four to seven years in specialty residencies. And even a physician who is not a psychiatrist is not qualified to make a psychiatric diagnosis. I don't know anything about what happened here, but if he wasn't diagnosed by a board-certified psychiatrist, then whatever a nurse and an NP decided is speculation.

Nurse Practitioners in most states have the full diagnostic power that a physician would, sometimes under supervision of a senior (or "collaborating") doctor just as a resident physician would have. Instead of "medical school", NPs have their own set of graduate programs - which require on average 700-800 hours clinical experience to even get into; whereas an art history major with some science electives can get into medical school. They have their own set of specialties and specialty requirements which can, once again, include the ability to make mental health diagnoses.

 

[Thermal]

Nurse Practitioners in most states have the full diagnostic power that a physician would, sometimes under supervision of a senior (or "collaborating") doctor just as a resident physician would have. Instead of "medical school", NPs have their own set of graduate programs - which require on average 700-800 hours clinical experience to even get into; whereas an art history major with some science electives can get into medical school. They have their own set of specialties and specialty requirements which can, once again, include the ability to make mental health diagnoses.

I don't think so, nor does my Nurse Practioner stepsister. Wiki summarizes:

A nurse practitioner (NP) is an advanced practice registered nurse and a type of mid-level practitioner.[1][2] NPs are trained to assess patient needs, order and interpret diagnostic and laboratory tests, diagnose disease, formulate and prescribe treatment plans. NP training covers basic disease prevention, coordination of care, and health promotion, but does not provide the depth of expertise needed to recognize more complex conditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurse_practitioner

They can take the place of doctors as a kind of first-line primary care, but the depth of specialty training in mental health diagnoses falls far outside their lane.

 

[Shadowdweller]

https://www.registerednursing.org/articles/psychiatric-nurse-practitioner-vs-psychiatrist/

A psychiatric nurse practitioner can do almost everything a psychiatrist can do, with some exceptions. Psych nurse practitioners are able to asses and diagnose patients, involve psychotherapy with treatment, prescribe medications, educate patients and families about their diagnoses, as well as develop and manage treatment plans and goals with a wide variety of disorders and illnesses.

https://innerstrengthmh.com/nurse-practitioner/

A Psychiatric Mental Health Nurse Practitioner (PMHNP-BC) is an Advanced Practice Registered Nurse (APRN) with specialized training in Psychiatry and Mental Health. A PMHNP-BC received graduate education and clinical training in the assessment, diagnosis, and treatment of psychiatric and mental health disorders and obtained a national board certification. Working independently and collaboratively with other health professionals, PMHNP’s provide a full range of psychiatric and mental health services. This includes, but is not limited to, diagnosing psychiatric and mental health disorders, prescribing medications to treat psychiatric and mental health disorders, and providing psychotherapy and patient education.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/190678

A medical professional will base their diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder on a person’s self-reported experiences, as well as descriptions of unusual or uncharacteristic behavior reported by family members, friends, and colleagues.

A psychiatrist or psychiatric nurse practitioner might diagnose schizoaffective disorder in a clinical assessment.

https://www.medicinenet.com/schizoaffective_disorder/article.htm

To diagnose schizoaffective disorder, one first has to rule out any medical condition that may be the actual cause or contributing factor for the mood and behavioral changes. Once medical causes have been looked for and not found, a mental health professional should consider a mental illness such as schizoaffective disorder. The diagnosis will best be made by a licensed mental health professional, like a psychiatrist, clinical psychologist, psychiatric nurse, nurse practitioner, or physician's assistant, who can evaluate the patient and carefully sort through a variety of mental illnesses that might look similarly upon the initial examination.

 

[smartcooky]

https://www.registerednursing.org/articles/psychiatric-nurse-practitioner-vs-psychiatrist/

https://innerstrengthmh.com/nurse-practitioner/

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/190678

https://www.medicinenet.com/schizoaffective_disorder/article.htm

"Link to FOUR medical sources" v "a Wikipedia entry"

 

[Bob001]

https://www.registerednursing.org/articles/psychiatric-nurse-practitioner-vs-psychiatrist/
.....

I note from your links and others that the credentials to become a nurse practitioner -- which might be no more than a master's degree -- can be earned on-line. If you think that's comparable to four years of actual medical school and a five-year residency in psychiatry, you are welcome to your opinion. But I wouldn't want an NP deciding my fate in the criminal justice system.

 

[Suddenly]

I note from your links and others that the credentials to become a nurse practitioner -- which might be no more than a master's degree -- can be earned on-line. If you think that's comparable to four years of actual medical school and a five-year residency in psychiatry, you are welcome to your opinion. But I wouldn't want an NP deciding my fate in the criminal justice system.

I have less contempt for practical experience. I'm fine with a nurse practitioner who has been in the field doing stuff for years and taking extra courses to supplement that over someone who has a more before the fact book learnin' that becomes obsolete every 30 minutes and possibly who is way more arrogant about it.

 

[Bob001]

I have less contempt for practical experience. I'm fine with a nurse practitioner who has been in the field doing stuff for years and taking extra courses to supplement that over someone who has a more before the fact book learnin' that becomes obsolete every 30 minutes and possibly who is way more arrogant about it.

What do you think a residency is? For that matter, what do you think the last two years of med school and a year-long internship are? And aren't extra courses just "book learnin'?"

 

[Thermal]

Just noticed this one:

"Link to FOUR medical sources" v "a Wikipedia entry"

The first is a link to career/job training in nursing.
The second is a private individual's advertising site.
The third is a newsletter site.
The fourth is a media publishing site.

None of these are "medical sources" any more than Wiki, which can be argued is more credible due to its meticulous citations, and more to the point, all reference the specialty training of Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner, which the article does not mention in terms of the qualifications of the examiner.

You get that, right? A professional diagnosis takes longer than being part of a two hour examination. At the very least, the evaluator has to eliminate substance abuse and other explanations before rendering a diagnosis. The diagnostic process can take several sessions, and often take months.

It was claimed that a Nurse Practitioner could not make such an evaluation off the cuff. Providing evidence that the different, more specialized Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner (that was not claimed in the article) could is a different claim, for which the evidence is irrelevant. Psychiatric Nurse Practitioners call themselves exactly that, not the lower-qualified Nurse Practitioner. Kind of like a Doctor does not refer to themselves simply as a college graduate.

 

[Bob001]

....
You get that, right? A professional diagnosis takes longer than being part of a two hour examination. At the very least, the evaluator has to eliminate substance abuse and other explanations before rendering a diagnosis. The diagnostic process can take several sessions, and often take months.

It was claimed that a Nurse Practitioner could not make such an evaluation off the cuff. Providing evidence that the different, more specialized Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner (that was not claimed in the article) could is a different claim, for which the evidence is irrelevant. Psychiatric Nurse Practitioners call themselves exactly that, not the lower-qualified Nurse Practitioner. Kind of like a Doctor does not refer to themselves simply as a college graduate.

I just note again that a nurse practitioner, even with a speciality like psychiatry, is not a physician and has nothing like the training a psychiatrist gets, even if they are allowed to perform tasks without supervision. A nurse practitioner can earn their credentials, which might only be a master's degree, entirely on-line.

The only reason it matters here is that we don't really know if Arbery was mentally ill. He was diagnosed after a two-hour meeting with an RN and an NP, to whom he was sent by his probation officer. If he really was ill, they had an obligation to get him appropriate treatment, and apparently they didn't.

 

[Dr. Keith]

This thread got weird.

 

[JoeMorgue]

This thread got weird.

Got?

 

[Dr. Keith]

Got?

I mean . . . yeah? Weirder?

 

[Shadowdweller]

It sure is...cute...when people start pontificating on subjects they know absolutely nothing about.

I note from your links and others that the credentials to become a nurse practitioner -- which might be no more than a master's degree -- can be earned on-line.

A nurse practitioner can earn their credentials, which might only be a master's degree, entirely on-line.

No. Even the most basic Master of Science in Nursing (MSN) requires hundreds to thousands of supervised clinical hours (depending on program and location) that must be conducted in person. An "on-line" NP program is only on-line with respect to lectures. There is no level of nursing that can be attained entirely on-line.

Just noticed this one:
The first is a link to career/job training in nursing.
The second is a private individual's advertising site.
The third is a newsletter site.
The fourth is a media publishing site.

None of these are "medical sources" any more than Wiki, which can be argued is more credible due to its meticulous citations, and more to the point, all reference the specialty training of Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner, which the article does not mention in terms of the qualifications of the examiner.

The first is a page on a website run by nurses about the nursing field. The author of the particular page is an advanced practice nurse.
The second is the home page (/blog) of a mental health clinic. Written by a Nurse Practitioner.
The third is a medical news site; the information verified by a Doctor of Psychology / Nurse Practitioner.
The fourth is another medical news site, authored AND independently verified by a pair of physicians (MDs).

Wikipedia is a hodgepodge open to community editing at a moment's notice. There are few guarantees or safeguards that sources are actually applicable or authoritative. And curators frequently have no relevant expertise. There are good reasons why it is not considered viable support in academic circles. Specifically outside of which in this case:

The neutrality of this article is disputed. (January 2020)
This article relies too much on references to primary sources. (January 2020)
Some of this article's listed sources may not be reliable. (January 2020)

Not mention your feeble attempt at cherrypicking.

The only reason it matters here is that we don't really know if Arbery was mentally ill. He was diagnosed after a two-hour meeting with an RN and an NP, to whom he was sent by his probation officer. If he really was ill, they had an obligation to get him appropriate treatment, and apparently they didn't.

It was claimed that a Nurse Practitioner could not make such an evaluation off the cuff. Providing evidence that the different, more specialized Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner (that was not claimed in the article) could is a different claim, for which the evidence is irrelevant. Psychiatric Nurse Practitioners call themselves exactly that, not the lower-qualified Nurse Practitioner. Kind of like a Doctor does not refer to themselves simply as a college graduate.

No, it was claimed that:

If they didn't send him to a psychiatrist, that by itself raises doubts about the claim.

Which is patently, inarguably false

You seem to have missed the fact that 1) Arbery was sent specifically for a mental health screening as a condition of his parole to 2) a mental health facility. Specifically Gateway Behavioral Services in Brunswick, Georgia. A facility which is fully licensed to diagnose and treat mental disorders, including Schizoaffective Disorder. Whether this particular diagnosis is credible cannot be verified since Arbery's mental health records are not open to the public. Though there are public records of the prosecution, judge, and defense team squabbling about it.

A parole board or officer failing to follow up properly over people under their oversight is...yes, bad. And unfortunately nothing new.