Satanic Sculpture at Illinois Statehouse.

[Thermal]

TGF:

You're right, we're just going in circles. Listen, please:

I am questioning how real this war on christmas is. You are so damn determined to argue that you don't see we are on the same side on this part. You put up a muticolored quote to highlight how we live in different worlds. Yes. Agreed. My world is not determined by the BS coming from Fox or tweets from the POTUS. That is the point I am making, and for some reason you are quixotically tilting against. I don't believe the evangelicals, Fox, etc. There is no war on christmas.

Christmas, as I see it, is a 99% retail and private phenomenon. The main exceptions are Santa on the firetruck and whether a nativity and menorah are on state property, and the town puts up lights.

I asked earlier, and you didn't answer: what do xians do that you feel has muscled its way into your life?

eta: I am calling TST dicks for one reason, and the groups you cite for a very different reason. This subtle trying to shift me into their company is noted.

 

[BobTheCoward]

I asked earlier, and you didn't answer: what do xians do that you feel has muscled its way into your life?
.

Prevent marriage equality for most of it.

ETA: encourage the Iraq war

 

[Thermal]

Prevent marriage equality for most of it.

Another ongoing battle, but largely won, yes?

I'm actually thinking more of Christmas here. Besides the private retail industry and the wording of holiday greetings, how are xians forcing their way of life on posters? I ask out of a sense of perspective. In the mid-Atlantic area where I live, I don't think it's noticeable. I gather from posters in the south, it is relentless.

your eta: the Iraq thing was more conservative backed, I think. While the two go hand-in-hand, I'm not sure hawks were motivated by religion so much as vengeance (or military-industrial profiteering)

 

[BobTheCoward]

your eta: the Iraq thing was more conservative backed, I think. While the two go hand-in-hand, I'm not sure hawks were motivated by religion so much as vengeance (or military-industrial profiteering)

Pat Robertson disagrees with you on the importance of Christianity in the Iraq war. This is from last week

“He was in the Oval Office and just at that time, his representative in Geneva had been meeting with a representative of Saddam Hussein and the talks had broken down,” Robertson recalled. “I said, ‘Mr. President, I’ve got a word from the Lord for you.’ He said, ‘What is it?’ I said, ‘There is going to be a war, it is going to be enormously successful, you’re going to be hailed as a great military leader, and your success is going to go through the roof.'”

Robertson said that he and Bush then “joined hands together” in prayer and “asked for God’s anointing and his wisdom on this man, and he went from there into the Cabinet Room and they launched the Gulf War.”

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/...d-on-a-word-from-the-lord-from-pat-robertson/

 

[Thermal]

Pat Robertson disagrees with you on the importance of Christianity in the Iraq war. This is from last week



http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/...d-on-a-word-from-the-lord-from-pat-robertson/

I personally would not trust Pat Robertson to tell me the correct time of day. Nor do I think President Bush made decisions independently.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Another ongoing battle, but largely won, yes?

It doesnt matter who won. The fact the majority fought it is what matters. Real harm, real foul.

 

[Thermal]

It doesnt matter who won. The fact the majority fought it is what matters. Real harm, real foul.

How did that affect your life? What did Christians do to you?

 

[BobTheCoward]

How did that affect your life? What did Christians do to you?

People I cared about were not able to enjoy the same benefits I did because christians wanted to protect God's concept of marriage.

Because of slavery in the US, an institution defended on religious merits for years and years, an entire group of people were cut out of gaining the wealth of labor. That has massive ramifications for the economy today.

 

[TragicMonkey]

How did that affect your life? What did Christians do to you?

I like the past tense here. I can still be fired or evicted for being gay, thanks to other people's religious notions. Just because you can see the gays on TV now doesn't mean everybody bothered to extend actual legal protections. Society is not as progressive as the bubble this board exists in.

 

[Thermal]

People I cared about were not able to enjoy the same benefits I did because christians wanted to protect God's concept of marriage.

Because of slavery in the US, an institution defended on religious merits for years and years, an entire group of people were cut out of gaining the wealth of labor. That has massive ramifications for the economy today.

The discussion here is about how contemporary Christians try to force their way of life on the larger community, not the socio-economic impact of slavery. That is an important discussion, but not this one.

Marriage equality is closer to the mark. But here, we are talking about Christians almost unknowingly pushing an agenda because of their ongoing majority status. So have you felt contemporary Christians shoving Christmas festivities down your throat?

 

[BobTheCoward]

The discussion here is about how contemporary Christians try to force their way of life on the larger community, not the socio-economic impact of slavery. That is an important discussion, but not this one.

Marriage equality is closer to the mark. But here, we are talking about Christians almost unknowingly pushing an agenda because of their ongoing majority status. So have you felt contemporary Christians shoving Christmas festivities down your throat?

You are moving the goalposts from post 401.

 

[Thermal]

I like the past tense here. I can still be fired or evicted for being gay, thanks to other people's religious notions. Just because you can see the gays on TV now doesn't mean everybody bothered to extend actual legal protections. Society is not as progressive as the bubble this board exists in.

OK, that's actually what I'm getting at. My offline experience is plus or minus like this board. Differing opinions, but only a couple of sniveling bigots skulking around. The majority seem pretty hip. Do you feel like Christians are pushing their way of life on you, and with the power to enforce it?

*no reframing intended with previous use of the past tense. TGF seemed to be alluding to his past experiences, and I was trying to leave the door open to not insist on 'here and now' examples

 

[Thermal]

You are moving the goalposts from post 401.

I am not. The question asked in #401 had two paragraphs of xmas context before it. Each question need not include a full position statement for background.

 

[BobTheCoward]

I am not. The question asked in #401 had two paragraphs of xmas context before it. Each question need not include a full position statement for background.

I disagree

 

[Thermal]

I disagree

I have no opinion on that.

 

[The Greater Fool]

I am questioning how real this war on christmas is. You are so damn determined to argue that you don't see we are on the same side on this part.

You put up a muticolored quote to highlight how we live in different worlds. Yes. Agreed. My world is not determined by the BS coming from Fox or tweets from the POTUS. That is the point I am making, and for some reason you are quixotically tilting against. I don't believe the evangelicals, Fox, etc. There is no war on christmas.

I get it now. You are literally in your own little world.

Because you don't allow BS from Fox, POTUS, ACLJ, evangelicals, etc. into your consciousness they don't exist and have no effect. It's all fake news. These people and groups don't affect you so they don't affect anyone. Because you don't care about the battles these people and groups are fighting they have no effect. Wow.

Christmas, as I see it, is a 99% retail and private phenomenon. The main exceptions are Santa on the firetruck and whether a nativity and menorah are on state property, and the town puts up lights.

That's right, because it's not religious to you, it's not religious to anyone. The ACJL claims aren't religious even though they think it is about religion. Fake news.

eta: I am calling TST dicks for one reason, and the groups you cite for a very different reason. This subtle trying to shift me into their company is noted.

My apologies. I was in no way trying to be subtle. You are judged by the company you keep. You choose not to see the company around you, but they see you and thank you for your support.

I asked earlier, and you didn't answer: what do xians do that you feel has muscled its way into your life?

The answers to this are legion. But not in your world. It is unreasonable that you could participate in this thread and need to ask this question.

 

[Thermal]

TGF, I give up. You simply will not listen.

I am saying my experience in the real world...that outside one with real people and stuff...is not consistent with what the Brain Trust at Fox and POTUS tweets report. Is that clear enough for you?

Whoever the ACLJ is, what they think is not what forms my world view. My world view is formed offline. I am not saying that they are reporting fake news. I am saying they may be a highly vocal minority who looks disproportionately influential.

That's how I view Fox. They scream about a War on Christmas that doesn't seem to be happening. So they are not what forms my picture of the world. You can deny this and flick insults all you want, but you are wrong.

Regarding the company I keep, there are multiple ways I would accept and applaud TST's actions. The company you fraudulently claim I keep would not.

In this thread, people mainly from the south have described Christian bible thumping as being a powerful social force. That's good to know, as they are not in my mid-Atlantic area. I value these perspectives; hell, it's the reason I am asking on an international forum, to get wide views.

I asked you what xians have done to encroach on your life, as your party next door analogy had them spilling into your yard. The answers have not been legion to the question I asked you. I assume something pretty invasive has happened, based on your stridency, which would be valuable input. But you talk about how Chanukah was celebrated generations ago. No, you did not answer. I assume you mean you don't wish to share. That's fine, but don't push it off on me as being closed-minded.

eta: I emailed TST about their thoughts on snaketivity including a satanic well-wish. Awaiting response

 

[The Greater Fool]

TGF, I give up. You simply will not listen.

I am saying my experience in the real world...that outside one with real people and stuff...is not consistent with what the Brain Trust at Fox and POTUS tweets report. Is that clear enough for you?

Whoever the ACLJ is, what they think is not what forms my world view. My world view is formed offline. I am not saying that they are reporting fake news. I am saying they may be a highly vocal minority who looks disproportionately influential.

That's how I view Fox. They scream about a War on Christmas that doesn't seem to be happening. So they are not what forms my picture of the world. You can deny this and flick insults all you want, but you are wrong.

You can dismiss and ignore Fox/Potus/Idiot troika all you want. They lie, cheat, steal and worse still, they probably talk in theaters.

Ignore them at your peril. The F/P/I troika has 42 million supporters, so how ever ridiculous their thoughts, they have real world impacts.

Obviously there is no War on Christmas, yet 42 million people support the 'fact' that there is because the F/P/I troika tells them so. These 42 million supports then go out and act on the stupid they hear. And they believe god is directing them, and they are fighting a holy war.

These Nimrods bomb and shoot up Planned Parenthood clinics. Physically attack gay folks, and amazingly enough still, mixed race couples. They want to prevent their employees, public school students, the poor around the world from getting birth control.

Then there is the big stuff: They sentence you to hell for saying "Happy Holidays." They try to force everyone to revere what they revere. They physically and verbally abuse dark skinned they perceive as pagan. They work to stop displays they disagree with. Force school children to only sing Christian songs. They are working on School prayer, and push anti-science creationism in science classes. They are doing gods work.

I am surprised you don't see these things in the news or in your city.

The brave souls that stand against them are doing dog's work, doing the season the way they think it should be done, and don't deserve to be called dicks.

I apologize for going smidgen overboard with hyperbole.

I know you're on the right side of this on the intellectual side, supporting their right to do this. Emotionally, however much the Satanists are being dicks by being true to themselves, the troika throng of hypocrites are on a completely different dick scale several orders of magnitude grander.

 

[Thermal]

See, that's the thing: things are so ******* bad out there that any time I see something like this, I just want to scream 'Why you gotta make things worse???'

The Satanic Temple maintains the moral and legal high ground. A little tweaking and they could win over the bystanders/fence sitters. But no: they choose, despite occupying the high ground, to insure that the chasm is a little wider. That winning people over is just a little less tenable.

Not to go full-on Bill and Ted, but for ****'s sake, Be Excellent to Each Other. Work towards fixing the goddamned problem, not insuring it will continue

 

[kali1137]

The biggest problem I have with your point is that you have made it abundantly clear that you have no respect for this group or any point they may wish to make. Calling them devil dudes and referring to their display as handy snaky thingy - dripping with disdain. So when you say you value their opinion just not the timing I have a hard time believing you.

The next problem I have with your argument is complaining about the timing. You remind me of the people who complain about NFL players taking a knee. "Of course they have the right to quietly and politely protest" just not during my football game because I enjoy football damnit.....Why on earth would you try to make a point/social impact while no one is watching/paying attention?

The reason I don't agree with you is because you have no respect for the group and think they are a bunch of clowns. I see the message for what it is.