Satanic Sculpture at Illinois Statehouse.

[Thermal]

That certainly seems like the final letter on the subject.

Let's hope so.

 

[Hellbound]

Ok, so we are back to your crux issue: is a majority celebration inherently exclusive? Wrong, in a word? In other words, are those who do not wish to participate actually being suppressed by the majority? That is what you seem to be suggesting. Jews, as The Greater Fool notes, dont care all that much. Kwanzaa is not exactly on fire with participants. Solstice revelers seem few and far between. So who's necks are the Xmas celebrants stepping on?

That's not the major issue. Some one else picked up on it, but I want to reiterate.

No one is upset that there's Christmas. People are upset that Christmas displays get government-backing (via use of government spaces and similar) that promotes one religious viewpoint above others.

The point of things like the Satanist display is that if you open public spaces to religious displays, it's all-or-nothing: you can't only let in certain ones.

That said, let me try a different question. You've repeatedly said that the TST is being "dickish" because they're sticking it to Christians. Is there any display they could put up that you wouldn't consider "dickish", or is it just the fact that they're there at all?

 

[Thermal]

That's not the major issue. Some one else picked up on it, but I want to reiterate.

No one is upset that there's Christmas. People are upset that Christmas displays get government-backing (via use of government spaces and similar) that promotes one religious viewpoint above others.

But much of Christmas is secular. It's not quite the promotion or state backing of religion to have Santa on the town fire truck. In the OP, it is simply a public space that private citizens are permitted to display holiday stuff.

This is the important part: no one is being excluded in the OP. You want a tree up? Go ahead. You want a Menorah? Go ahead. You want a snakey handy thingy? Go ahead. If people are upset about this, they have free-floating upsetness and focus problems.

The point of things like the Satanist display is that if you open public spaces to religious displays, it's all-or-nothing: you can't only let in certain ones.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Agreed. My only caveat is that it be a sincere display. Public spaces aren't for people to throw up their pet stand-up routines. Were I to walk in as a priest of the Church of the Swinging Johnson and demand my own dickish display...well, I wouldn't.

There is a background issue here with what constitutes a religion. As long as the law reads how it does, TST is a religion and is afforded the same freedoms as real ones. I support this, particularly when TST is working towards a goal. Here, not so much. So as a social issue, as the subforum the OP is listed under, my argument is different than if it were in R&P or politics.

That said, let me try a different question. You've repeatedly said that the TST is being "dickish" because they're sticking it to Christians. Is there any display they could put up that you wouldn't consider "dickish", or is it just the fact that they're there at all?

Sure, and I have repeatedly said so. A Solstice festival or whatever. Even if they threw a Santa hat on the snake and had a sign reading 'Have a Hell of a Great Holiday', I would be totally okay with that.

And I might ask you: do you support people trying to be offensive to groups you actually support? Say, protesters outside a State funded abortion clinic? From the social standpoint, I think time and place for battles matters.

 

[The Greater Fool]

TGF, I get your points, and I largely agree. They are just a little to the side of my arguments, and slowly slipping towards a position I do not hold. For instance, you assert that saying Happy Holidays is considered an attack on xmas. Maybe for like ten people, worldwide. The rest of us are happy to use that and have no problem at all with it, and like the inclusivity.

Bolded: No, I don't make that claim. Have you heard of the POTUS? Fox News? Evangelicals? THEY make that claim. 10 People worldwide? Even as hyperbole this is laughably wrong.

On the flip side, you are painting Christian inclusiveness unrealistically. Christians being inclusive through force of law does not equal being inclusive.

I would attribute this difference of opinion to differences in our experiences and outlook, but you seem to live in a world that has little in common with mine, or most of the folks in this thread for that matter.

I have the feeling we could go round and round and not make headway, though. Hope we can agree to disagree.

I believe this point has been made several times.

They do have one thing in common: they're both pulling on the end of the Overton Window, forcing the arbiters of the law to spit through gritted teeth that what they are doing is not technically illegal.

Bolded: Every non-Christian religion pushing into the State sphere have that in common. From an actions point of view, WBC is at the extremist end, while most everyone else is at the other. WBC uses the same Bible as other Christians do. Really, it's more about poisoning the well than any actually meaningful comparison.

Of course, not the same end, and the two positions are in no way morally equivalent in deed or intent, and the Overton Window itself was conceived to make that point that someone will always have to be That Guy and make a show of standing up for important but unpopular principles lest they be ceded to the extremists... but none of that helps Thermal keep up his "let's agree that you're wrong" shtick.

Right. They are no more dicks for presenting this quiet, thought provoking display than were Jews when they did it a few decades ago. And they are no more dicks than the Christians with their specific religious nativity presentation.

 

[pgwenthold]

On the flip side, you are painting Christian inclusiveness unrealistically. Christians being inclusive through force of law does not equal being inclusive.

Oh, I'm sure there are plenty of great Christians who value inclusiveness and are happy to share in the celebration. Then again, they are also the ones who aren't bitching about this display. The ones complaining are the ones who think that Christians deserve special treatment.

 

[Myriad]

That said, let me try a different question. You've repeatedly said that the TST is being "dickish" because they're sticking it to Christians. Is there any display they could put up that you wouldn't consider "dickish", or is it just the fact that they're there at all?

I think he's made it pretty clear he thinks the Satanists would better serve their cause by participating in the festivity of the season. Why don't they just put up a display with some snowflakes, jingle bells, a yule log, maybe a nice nativity scene (made of cheap plastic to guarantee its secularity)...?

The problem, of course, is not that that message would simply be parroting the Christian and Christian-derived holiday traditions, but that it says nothing TST is interested in saying. Unlike some other "alternative religions" their organized practices don't include celebrating the time of the year (as far as I know). They're not concerned with salvation that leads to celebrating the birth of a savior; nor the turns of the seasons and movements of the heavenly bodies that lead to celebrating a solstice; nor an ancient miracle that symbolizes the power of their faith and deity; nor about how pretty snow is or how much fun it is to receive free stuff from others. Their thing is about knowledge and human agency. So that's the kind of message they want to display.

Saying TST has the same rights as any other group to put up a festive child-happy-making display celebrating the season is a bit like saying (as some Christians do) that gays have the same rights as anyone else to marry people of the opposite sex. Saying, well, they do have the right to display their own message instead, but they're dicks if they exercise it, is less wrong, but not right.

 

[Lithrael]

(...) you assert that saying Happy Holidays is considered an attack on xmas. Maybe for like ten people, worldwide.

Something tells me you’ve never worked retail in the Southern States

 

[Thermal]

Bolded: No, I don't make that claim. Have you heard of the POTUS? Fox News? Evangelicals? THEY make that claim. 10 People worldwide? Even as hyperbole this is laughably wrong.

On the flip side, you are painting Christian inclusiveness unrealistically. Christians being inclusive through force of law does not equal being inclusive.

I would attribute this difference of opinion to differences in our experiences and outlook, but you seem to live in a world that has little in common with mine, or most of the folks in this thread for that matter.

That may be true. I keep hearing about how rotten xians are, and how they declare war on Starbucks over their cups. Just never saw it. I wonder how much of it is all hype and rhetoric, and how much is real. Do you feel that you have been metaphorically attacked by Christians, or is it more the history and reporting from elsewhere?

I believe this point has been made several times.

Yup. Happy Holidays to ya!

 

[Thermal]

I think he's made it pretty clear he thinks the Satanists would better serve their cause by participating in the festivity of the season. Why don't they just put up a display with some snowflakes, jingle bells, a yule log, maybe a nice nativity scene (made of cheap plastic to guarantee its secularity)...?

The problem, of course, is not that that message would simply be parroting the Christian and Christian-derived holiday traditions, but that it says nothing TST is interested in saying. Unlike some other "alternative religions" their organized practices don't include celebrating the time of the year (as far as I know). They're not concerned with salvation that leads to celebrating the birth of a savior; nor the turns of the seasons and movements of the heavenly bodies that lead to celebrating a solstice; nor an ancient miracle that symbolizes the power of their faith and deity; nor about how pretty snow is or how much fun it is to receive free stuff from others. Their thing is about knowledge and human agency. So that's the kind of message they want to display.

Saying TST has the same rights as any other group to put up a festive child-happy-making display celebrating the season is a bit like saying (as some Christians do) that gays have the same rights as anyone else to marry people of the opposite sex. Saying, well, they do have the right to display their own message instead, but they're dicks if they exercise it, is less wrong, but not right.

My question is, why do so at that time and place, if not to simply be a douche? I get that they are not celebrating. Fine. Whatever. But then why insert yourself in a celebration and refuse to celebrate? It's stupid.

The more I think about it, I'd like to email TST and recommend that 'have a hell of a great holiday' thing. I can really picture Christians smirking a little and thinking maybe those guys aren't so bad (not the more hardcore fundies, obviously). Actually be furthering their mission, as opposed to being sticks in the mud.

 

[Thermal]

Something tells me you’ve never worked retail in the Southern States

Is it really that bad? Serious question. For all the yapping I hear about the war on xmas, I've never seen a shot fired that I recall.

 

[Garrette]

That may be true. I keep hearing about how rotten xians are, and how they declare war on Starbucks over their cups. Just never saw it. I wonder how much of it is all hype and rhetoric, and how much is real. Do you feel that you have been metaphorically attacked by Christians, or is it more the history and reporting from elsewhere?


Yup. Happy Holidays to ya!

I have, and I grew up Catholic in a very religious household. The only times I have ever personally observed real threats of violence regarding religion in the United States were Christians threatening me when they found out I have no religious belief. And this was when I never used the word atheist, when I couched all my terms in soft and easy words, and when they initiated they conversation despite my attempting to redirect it.

Short of threats of violence, I have frequently been politely told by my religious friends that Happy Holidays should be replaced with Merry Christmas. And my best friend from way back in Junior High School who knows my non-belief always insists on saying a prayer aloud before we start a meal when we join up for lunch at a restaurant.

 

[Hellbound]

<Good stuff snipped>

And that was exactly where I was going with it.

The display isn't offensive because there's anything specifically offensive about it. It's offensive because it doesn't properly conform to the Christian-accepted themes that dominate the season.

I see nothing wrong with the display, and the only I can see it as offensive is if I take the view that any non-Christian, non-traditional display is offensive. Even the secular parts of Christmas have their basis in the church, either as adaptions of religious principals (St. Nick) or blatant takeovers of pagan traditions (trees and yule logs).

And my father was a Minister for his entire life, only recently returning completely at 78. I was deeply involved in the Church until my young adult years, and even attended a Christian college for one year. I also live in the southern U.S. I've at least as much personal experience with the Christian viewpoint as Thermal, and this really exemplifies what we see around here. The polite, understated bigotry. To put it bluntly: "Oh, those black people are fine, and have a right to be here just like we do, but they could at least dress in clothes like ours and act like us. I mean, them trying to follow their own styles, that's just a dick move."

 

[Thermal]

I have, and I grew up Catholic in a very religious household. The only times I have ever personally observed real threats of violence regarding religion in the United States were Christians threatening me when they found out I have no religious belief. And this was when I never used the word atheist, when I couched all my terms in soft and easy words, and when they initiated they conversation despite my attempting to redirect it.

See, this is so completely foreign to me. Christians I grew up around (my grandfather was a pastor) ranged from good and giving people to casual twice-a-year-shave-for-church types. No one had those fish on their cars. Most lived according to their faith and pushed it on no one. When I hear people railing about the oppression of Christians, it sounds like so much tilting at windmills.

Short of threats of violence, I have frequently been politely told by my religious friends that Happy Holidays should be replaced with Merry Christmas. And my best friend from way back in Junior High School who knows my non-belief always insists on saying a prayer aloud before we start a meal when we join up for lunch at a restaurant.

Another I keep hearing but have never seen. Cashiers wish me Happy Holidays, and it's a pretty normal greeting AFAIK. Sorry to hear that you have had such negative exposures.

Regarding the prayer, I come across that too, and just quietly let them do their thing. Kind of like my argument here; there is a time and place to put up fights, and religious observations are not one of them. Live and let live and all that.

 

[Kochanski]

Thermal, you are missing the whole point of the display at Christmas. They are displaying at Christmas because putting up a display at a different point would not convey their message that if you allow one religious display at a particular time of year, you must allow ALL religious displays at that time of year.

That they have chosen to be the literal Devil's Advocate is purposeful because there are people who insist that the United States of America is a Christian nation when it is clearly and constitutionally not. I am certain if there was a different religion as the purported state religion, they would choose a different symbol. I think it is wonderful that they have seen that the Devil can be seen as a symbol of knowledge.

You do seem to have a much different experience than many others here. Anything less than saying Merry Christmas and profound genuflection to the Christ at this time of year is seen as a dick move.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again Rosa Parks shouldn't have moved because there were still empty seats at the back of the bus. Rosa Parks shouldn't have moved because the white people really needed to get somewhere and Rosa Parks was just making a point.

"Making the point" is sort of... well the point. The inability to conceptualize it as anything other than petty dickishness is exactly why the need to do it.

 

[Hellbound]

See, this is so completely foreign to me. Christians I grew up around (my grandfather was a pastor) ranged from good and giving people to casual twice-a-year-shave-for-church types. No one had those fish on their cars. Most lived according to their faith and pushed it on no one. When I hear people railing about the oppression of Christians, it sounds like so much tilting at windmills.

It is MUCH different in the south. I'll admit that threats of violence are very rare (in my experience), but the quiet versions of bigotry are everywhere. The idea that those other types of people are okay, but they should do it in private, the public spaces are for the Christians. And of course, the idea that morality is exclusive to Christianity.

Another I keep hearing but have never seen. Cashiers wish me Happy Holidays, and it's a pretty normal greeting AFAIK. Sorry to hear that you have had such negative exposures.

Cashiers, yes, because there's often a company policy and they'd be fired for violating it. But the sentiment, that "Happy Holidays" is somehow an attempt to attack Christmas, is common enough to be noticed. While that specific thing is a minority view among southern Christians, the idea that there is an attack on Christmas is MUCH more prevalent. Any attempt to make Christmas inclusive of more than just Christ is taken as an attempt to remove Christians entirely and an attack. And I can't count the number of "Reason for the Season" signs and posters and sayings I see everywhere this time of year.

Regarding the prayer, I come across that too, and just quietly let them do their thing. Kind of like my argument here; there is a time and place to put up fights, and religious observations are not one of them. Live and let live and all that.

My problem is that most aloud prayers I've heard (and given) in my life include three primary themes: Look how Christian I am giving praise to God for everything, God gimme and look I'm asking for non-selfish stuff, and I'm going to throw in some bits about our core doctrines to back-handedly preach to the unbelievers". Especially considering Jesus's instructions about prayer, public, out-loud prayer is THE dickish, in-your-face move of all time. It's nothing but "look how holy I am" with a bit of "Thank God for sending his son to save us" thrown in.

 

[Thermal]

Thermal, you are missing the whole point of the display at Christmas. They are displaying at Christmas because putting up a display at a different point would not convey their message that if you allow one religious display at a particular time of year, you must allow ALL religious displays at that time of year.

Yes. I get that. Agreed. Ad nauseum. But that is the secondary argument: are they a religion? They took it to court in Virginia and won, so they are recognized as fitting the legal definition of a religion, with the rights and protections guaranteed thereunto. Great. I'm a lawfully ordained priest with a doctorate issued by the church. It's still BS, no matter the word games played.

That they have chosen to be the literal Devil's Advocate is purposeful because there are people who insist that the United States of America is a Christian nation when it is clearly and constitutionally not. I am certain if there was a different religion as the purported state religion, they would choose a different symbol. I think it is wonderful that they have seen that the Devil can be seen as a symbol of knowledge.

Yup. Their GFM had the slogan of 'let's bring Satan to Springfield' or something. They are not expressing their religious beliefs. They are spitting at others. From the social standpoint (note this is in SI&CE), they're just being dickedy-doo-dahs. They are not immune to social criticism either, as so many here seem to think they are.

You do seem to have a much different experience than many others here. Anything less than saying Merry Christmas and profound genuflection to the Christ at this time of year is seen as a dick move.

etc: are you saying that your experience is with this nasty breed of xians, too? Just trying to keep track here of how many posters see this type. It really is odd to me, like people saying hospital volunteers tend to be vampires.

 

[Myriad]

My question is, why do so at that time and place, if not to simply be a douche?

I suspect that it's because that's the time and place they're allowed to do it. I don't know Illinois State House policy, but I don't think religious groups (not even nice mainstream Christians) are allowed to put up displays in the rotunda whenever they feel like it. So it's that time and place, or never in that place.

The more I think about it, I'd like to email TST and recommend that 'have a hell of a great holiday' thing. I can really picture Christians smirking a little and thinking maybe those guys aren't so bad (not the more hardcore fundies, obviously). Actually be furthering their mission, as opposed to being sticks in the mud.

Sure, go ahead and make the suggestion. Whether they like the suggestion or not, I think they'd appreciate your interest in the matter.

 

[Thermal]

I suspect that it's because that's the time and place they're allowed to do it. I don't know Illinois State House policy, but I don't think religious groups (not even nice mainstream Christians) are allowed to put up displays in the rotunda whenever they feel like it. So it's that time and place, or never in that place.

Good point. Not sure on what grounds the State would restrict the timing of public displays, though.

Sure, go ahead and make the suggestion. Whether they like the suggestion or not, I think they'd appreciate your interest in the matter.

I will. Will report back on their response, if any. May shine light on their motivations

 

[Kochanski]

Thermal, yes, they are a religion. They have decided they are, just like Scientologists have decided they are a religion. Just because you don't think they are being sincere and serious doesn't mean you get to decide they aren't a religion. They seem very sincere in their beliefs. Just because they don't have a deity, doesn't mean they lack religious sincerity.