South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[Caper]

The problem ISN'T the past. It's ISN'T what the flag meant some in the past. The problem is what the flag means today. It represents the continued subjugation and oppression of minorities.

Personally, I'd love to see southern blacks claim the flag as their own and work to change the meaning.

I also think the flag just looks really cool. Unlike the swastika... Maybe it's because there were no childhood tv shows the prominently displayed the swastika.

 

[Aepervius]

This case isn't so much a government intervention issue as it is a merchant issue. Big name merchants have ceased sales of the flag which "if" it gets to a sufficient point could make it a rare item. Whatever... I don't care much about the flag outside of state-level sponsorship, but I viewed the retailer response as over the top... just my opinion

Retailer follow only one rule : follow the wind & where the money is. Retailer did not ban in in as much as remove it from stock for a cheap marketing advertising , and tabling on the fact the sales were probably not that high in $ amount

Hey and it is the good old USA home of the free (cough) market. If everybody abandon the confederate flag sales, then some guy can pick up and only sell confederate paraphernalia and make a killing.

All the concern about retailer reacting are missing the point anyway. the same way nobody should be forced to remove the flag from their private properties, the same way private non government affiliated retailer should not be forced to carry the flag in their stock.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander too : private folk should have the right to decide if they want the flag or not, on their own properties.

 

[Aepervius]

*No one has forgotten the Holocaust.

The Swastika is one of the most recognizable icons in the world. In Germany it is only kept in museums.

I would NOT go so far as Germany. I think they have taken censorhsip too far.

That said, your argument is, IMO, baseless.

*Godwin is an observation about the statistical likelihood that a rhetorical device (ad hominem) in order to paint or compare one's behavior or sentiment as abhorrent as Nazism. I make no such claims. Grizzly Bear has made a good faith, if not specious argument, that calls for an analogy in my opinion and this one is apt.

just a note : the allies forced germany to take censorship that far. As far as I remember those laws came from the allies. Germany simply never repelled any of them because you can bet pretty much half of europe would be unhappy if they did, and would point accusing finger at germany. Do not underestimate the memory of people which remember the war, or had their youth impacted by the aftermath thereof. Censorship does not sound that bad for people which may have had half their country razed and many people deported to never return, or were bombed for a long time.

 

[RandFan]

Agreed

just a note : the allies forced germany to take censorship that far. As far as I remember those laws came from the allies. Germany simply never repelled any of them because you can bet pretty much half of europe would be unhappy if they did, and would point accusing finger at germany. Do not underestimate the memory of people which remember the war, or had their youth impacted by the aftermath thereof. Censorship does not sound that bad for people which may have had half their country razed and many people deported to never return, or were bombed for a long time.

Perfectly fair points. Thank you for that.

 

[Meadmaker]

Care to point out psot which state the contrary ?

Here is the statement to which this refers:

I don't see anyone on this thread arguing that the Confederate battle flag should be banned - just that official bodies should not fly it.

The statement would be true if by "Confederate battle flag" you mean any representation at all of any Confederate flag, and if by "fly", you mean "any representation", and if by "official bodies" you mean, "any body under government control".

In other words, people in this thread have called for a removal of all representations of the flag in any case where the government could possibly get rid of it without violating the first amendment.

Rather than find specific posts in this thread, I will refer to resolutions in Congress and policy statements already issued. I have raised objections to those resolutions, and many have agreed with them, and many others have chosen not weigh in on the subject. Those resolutions:

Banned the sale at National parks of any representation of a Confederate flag except in educational materials. (i.e. no flags, no belt buckles, no coasters.)

Banned the display of a Confederate flag except where necessary as part of education. A memo issued by the head of the National Park Service clarified that this meant that it could be used on a map to display troop positions, but that was about it. This memo resulted in, among other things, removing the flag from such places as Fort Sumter.

Banned the use of any Confederate flag as grave decoration in any federal cemetery.

A resolution, not passed, but introduced by Nancy Pelosi, would have banned the display of the state flag of Mississippi in portions of the capitol building.



In some cases, people have supported some or all of these actions, while in others they have simply maintained silence. Other people, including me, have stated that flying the flag in an official capacity, as at the South Carolina statehouse, is a bad idea, but that the other proposals go too far. I, in particular, have made stronger statements about those other proposals, that they are pandering, that they are sanctimonious, that they represent a bunch of busybodies pulling cheap political stunts.

As long as the thread was talking about the flag at the South Carolina statehouse, I limited my own contribution to a few observations about flag history and flag etiquette rules regarding why that flag was not flown at half staff, and there was no serious dissent in the thread. Once things progressed beyond that, it grew more contentious.

 

[ponderingturtle]

College football is also huge down south.

The significance of the Confederate battle flag in NASCAR is not based in racism. It stems from the early "rum runner" days during prohibition that gave birth to the sport. It's a symbol of rebellion and freedom for the vast majority of the fans. I can see NASCAR wanting to distance itself from any suggestion of racism but, the "Rebel" flag will likely always be present at the tracks. Even up here in the north.

And their proud segregationist roots.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That is highly ironic, since the Confederacy stood for quite the opposite.

FWIW, History of African-Americans in NASCAR

Well the freedom from knowing that no matter how little you had, you were still better than any black doctor.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I support my claim with personal experience. The history of NASCAR is well after the civil war and is only connected to the south by geography.

I've been to hundreds of races and racism has never been an issue. Where do you get that the Confederate battle flag has only one meaning and thaiboxerken assumptions are correct?

Willing to grow a pair and see this issue for what it is?

It has many meanings. South Carolina started flying it on their capital to fight integration for example. No norther federal type is going to tell them how to treat their blacks!

 

[ponderingturtle]

So your plan is to ban a flag? Let me know how that works out. My plan is to stop actually seeing it as an issue. All my friends think it works.

There is nothing racist about a state being proud of its resistance to integration. That is a proud southern tradition, and what that flag symbolized.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I wonder if the American flag will be next? There is a small tiny little push from certain corners so in 50 year time who knows.....

I doubt is as the USA continues to progress and move away from bigotry and intolerance. To compare the Stars and Stripes to the Stars and Bars is baseless.

 

[Upchurch]

Supporters of the flag should have did their best to re-brand it when they had a chance... and they had a long chance. To me it was only ever a flag on the roof of the cool car on Dukes of Hazard..... No one I grew up with knew it meant anything else (eastern Canada).

If people liked the symbol so much and it represented so much to them, even if none of the bad stuff that others took from it... then they should have worked harder to make it mean something else to more people... they didn't.

I posted a link many pages back which outlined how they tried to redeem the Confederacy almost immediately after the war was over, which lead to the various mythologies about the Confederacy being motivated by states rights or tariffs or almost anything except preserving the institute of slavery. The problem is that overt racism was still in fashion, so they didn't try to rewrite that part of history. That made the Confederate flag a natural fit for the segregationists in the 1950s/60s and other racists moving forward.

 

[Travis]

I think you miss a point. Yes, I understand what a symbol may have meant in the past but, I believe these symbols can evolve. The swastika would be a real tough (and I think offensive) sell but, the Confederate battle flag has in fact evolved over the years. The Confederate battle flag is not the real issue here. The fact some think it is......................

Do you not see the futility in arguing a flag isn't a symbol of racism with people that clearly think it is? The fact the argument is happening is proof itself.

 

[Upchurch]

The significance of the Confederate battle flag in NASCAR is not based in racism. It stems from the early "rum runner" days during prohibition that gave birth to the sport. It's a symbol of rebellion and freedom for the vast majority of the fans. I can see NASCAR wanting to distance itself from any suggestion of racism but, the "Rebel" flag will likely always be present at the tracks. Even up here in the north.

Are you claiming that rum runners adopted the Confederate flag during Prohibition as a "stick it to the man" symbol?

Yes, mostly because of their geographic location (Appalachia region). Do you think it's a coincidence it's also known as the "Rebel" flag?

Okay, just to wrap this part up. DGM was unable to support his claim that Prohibition era rum-runners adopted the Confederate battle flag of Northern Virginia as a symbol of rebellion. It is, therefore, very unlikely that NASCAR inherited it as a symbol from them and is much more likely that NASCAR spectators started displaying them in the 1950s during the flag's revival in popularity in protest to school integration in the wake of Brown v. Board of Education.

My only interest is this was the claim that the Confederate flag had taken on something other than an overtly racist symbolism prior to it's resurgence in popularity prior to it's adoption by segregationists. Thus far, there has been no evidence that it was.

 

[RandFan]

My only interest is this was the claim that the Confederate flag had taken on something other than an overtly racist symbolism prior to it's resurgence in popularity prior to it's adoption by segregationists. Thus far, there has been no evidence that it was.

I grew up the grandson of a Southern Baptist from Texas. My grandmother, a kind and gentle soul, whom I loved dearly, taught me quaint idioms like "cotton pickin'" (if you hit your thumb with a hammer you scream "cotton pickin' hammer"), "honest injun", "he jewed me down on the price". "then you can live like a white man". He "gyped me", then there was a peculiar disgusting remark that I've never heard before or since but the meaning is anything but vague. If my grand mother thought someone was stupid she would say, "he's got a bone in his nose".

These were my "heritage". I don't want that heritage. I loved my grand mother and have many found memories of her kindness and generosity to me. However, it pains me deeply and I have to say that I hate that she was racist and I disavow the racist vile she spewed and I'm not going to further her traditions.

 

[Upchurch]

He "gyped me"

I've heard and used that one myself, but never realized it's origins. In my head, it was spelled "jipped".

eta: Apparently, I was not alone in that misunderstanding.

 

[Giordano]

Okay, just to wrap this part up. DGM was unable to support his claim that Prohibition era rum-runners adopted the Confederate battle flag of Northern Virginia as a symbol of rebellion. It is, therefore, very unlikely that NASCAR inherited it as a symbol from them and is much more likely that NASCAR spectators started displaying them in the 1950s during the flag's revival in popularity in protest to school integration in the wake of Brown v. Board of Education.

My only interest is this was the claim that the Confederate flag had taken on something other than an overtly racist symbolism prior to it's resurgence in popularity prior to it's adoption by segregationists. Thus far, there has been no evidence that it was.

I would only add that I am not interested or knowledgeable about racism in NASCAR today, although as I mentioned before, IMHO anyone waving a Confederate flag and not being concerned about its intense racist symbolism is clueless. I just want to point out that NASCAR racing is currently one of the least ethnically diverse sports in the USA. As far as I can find, 96% of the NASCAR audience is "white" (as of 2013) which represents the least minority percentage of any routinely televised sport. Certainly there may be multiple reasons. Tennis, for a long time, was overwhelmingly white because, in part, it drew from an economic demographic, rich, which was also primarily white at the time, although clearly there was a lot of formal racism (for example the unwillingness of country clubs to let in minorities) as well.

Whatever the historic reason for NASCAR (and I don't wish to restart that discussion) it appears that the organization currently wants more minorities as fans, if only because the fan base has been declining and the organization wants more fans of any kind. One good way of encouraging that would be for the current fans to stop waving Confederate flags. Just a hint.

 

[SezMe]

How much hate and how long does the hate have to go on before the flag needs to be banned?

Nobody is talking about banning the flag.

 

[DavidJames]

Nobody is talking about banning the flag.

That's not quite true. I've seen a handful of folks right here who've talked about it.

Apologists for the racist flag, making the same lame comparison you quoted.

 

[Giordano]

Personally, I'd love to see southern blacks claim the flag as their own and work to change the meaning.

I also think the flag just looks really cool. Unlike the swastika... Maybe it's because there were no childhood tv shows the prominently displayed the swastika.

I have no beef with most of this string of your posts, because I agree that if people once had an opportunity to change the symbolism of the Confederate flag, but missed their chance and instead just further sullied its image. It would have been difficult even in the post 1860s, but by now it is way too late. Again, people wishing to move beyond the image of the Old South should just pick a different symbol! A lot of effort is devoted to the precise choice of a symbol to be certain that it precisely symbolizes the very point that one wishes to symbolize. It is extremely rare for people to pick a negative symbol and try to work all the way uphill to change its meaning.

Just in terms of you thinking the Confederate flag looks really cool: of course part of the reason it can look cool to you is that you didn't have relatives and friends who were beaten, killed, prevented from voting, forced to use the "colored" facilities, etc. by people waving that flag. Some of the designs of the uniforms of the SS probably, from a purely ascetic sense, looked kind of cool; having a bunch of my grand uncles and aunts killed by people wearing that uniform is probably one reason I don't have that view.

 

[Checkmite]

I have no beef with most of this string of your posts, because I agree that if people once had an opportunity to change the symbolism of the Confederate flag, but missed their chance and instead just further sullied its image.

I'm not sure I'd go as far as agreeing that its usage post-war has "further sullied" the flag's image. The KKK (from the early postbellum period) and white segregationists protesting the civil rights movement in the mid 1900's did not arbitrarily pick the Confederate battle flag to represent their argument, nor did they attach this racism stigma to it through their actions. They chose it expressly because as a Confederate symbol it already represented belligerence against the ideas of freedom and equality for blacks. They continued to use it as a symbol of exactly that. They haven't changed anything, for better or worse.