South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[DGM]

What dodge? I was stating my opinion.

So am I. Why am I expected to source mine and not you? Group think?

 

[Upchurch]

I'm looking to see if you believe NASCAR fans are racists. Wasn't that claim where this started? Hate those goal posts?

I noticed you edited the question from my post. Not surprising.

I noticed that you haven't supported your claim and have done quite a bit to avoid doing so.

 

[DGM]

I noticed that you haven't supported your claim and have done quite a bit to avoid doing so.

I support my claim with personal experience. The history of NASCAR is well after the civil war and is only connected to the south by geography.

I've been to hundreds of races and racism has never been an issue. Where do you get that the Confederate battle flag has only one meaning and thaiboxerken assumptions are correct?

Willing to grow a pair and see this issue for what it is?

 

[Giordano]

The attitude toward the South..and American Rural areas in general...we have seen displayed by some here is,sadly, pretty common among a certain class of self styled "intellectuals" (though I consider them to be more intellectual wannabes) on the left. It's one of total contempt,which reminds one of the attitude of the Party members in Orwell's "1984" toward The "Proles".
And it comes around to bite them in the butt come election time. It's giving massive amounts of free ammo to the political right.
What is really distressing is that they never learn from it. I guess feeling superior to people and that buzz you get from insulting others is more important then winning elections...

I don't see how I can speak for the vague "them" you cite (the "pretty common" "intellectuals" on the left who have only contempt for the South and American Rural areas in general) because I haven't met more than a handful. Good method of denoucing stereotyping, by the way.

I personally have met many wonderful and very smart people in the South and rural USA, and I have no such feelings of superiority based on these locations (although I indeed think that the coastline of New England is prettier than that of Oklahoma). But in keeping with the title of this thread, I will admit to a strong feeling of sadness and embarrassment for the specific people, of any location, who have somehow become convinced that the "Confederate" flag is a symbol of heritage and not hate. That is not why it was invented, that is not its history, and it is not how it has been used 99 times out of a hundred.

Simply stating that the flag symbolizes heritage doesn't work any better than stating that the swastika is a symbol of heritage. At least the swastika existed before the Nazi's subverted it to symbolize their distorted views; the same is not true of the Confederate battle flag.

Sure, some people have said, "Well when I fly it I am symbolizing heritage, not hate." Well, when I say "stupid" I really mean "smart." But somehow I keep getting into these fights in bars.

 

[Upchurch]

I support my claim with personal experience. The history of NASCAR is well after the civil war and is only connected to the south by geography.

In other words, you either are at least 100 years old and were a rum runner during 1920s Prohibition and still only have anecdotal evidence OR you have no evidence and have talking out your backside.

 

[DGM]

Simply stating that the flag symbolizes heritage doesn't work any better than stating that the swastika is a symbol of heritage. At least the swastika existed before the Nazi's subverted it to symbolize their distorted views; the same is not true of the Confederate battle flag.

I think you miss a point. Yes, I understand what a symbol may have meant in the past but, I believe these symbols can evolve. The swastika would be a real tough (and I think offensive) sell but, the Confederate battle flag has in fact evolved over the years. The Confederate battle flag is not the real issue here. The fact some think it is......................

 

[Mumbles]

Dylan Roof also burned the American flag and posted pictures of himself burning our flag. So why aren't liberals calling for a ban on burning the flag? Why the selectivity? If the Confederate flag must be banned because Roof posed with it, why should we not also ban burning the American flag since Roof burned the American flag?

For the record, it would be highly inappropriate for any state government to burn a US flag as some sort of protest against integration, which is why the terrorist burned a US flag. Burning a flag to dispose of it when it's worn out, however, is entirely appropriate.

In any event, this has little to do with the terrorist, and everything to do with the fact that the battle flag was flown specifically as a way for the white supremacists is South Carolina to protest the US government's demands for equality regardless of race.

The Confederate flag is not a racist symbol any more than the American flag is a racist symbol.

Wrong, as has been extensively shown in this thread.

 

[Mumbles]

The Confederate battle flag is not the real issue here.

I strongly disagree.

 

[DGM]

In other words, you either are at least 100 years old and were a rum runner during 1920s Prohibition and still only have anecdotal evidence OR you have no evidence and have talking out your backside.

That's right. Still can't address the original claim. Do you believe that NASCAR is disproportionately racist (as is claimed) and this claim is supported because the fans are "red necks".

Take your time.

 

[Upchurch]

That's right. Still can't address the original claim. Do you believe that NASCAR is disproportionately racist (as is claimed) and this claim is supported because the fans are "red necks".

Take your time.

I have made no such claim. You made a claim and have utterly failed to supported it. Hitchens Razor.

 

[DGM]

I strongly disagree.

The real issue is the current administration want to shift focus on the fact they have no intention of supporting excising gun laws. You get more attention by claiming the opposition opposes new laws. We don't need new, we need support for what is already there.

 

[DGM]

I have made no such claim. You made a claim and have utterly failed to supported it. Hitchens Razor.

Good. Why did you jump in on a conversation with another poster? Can I assume you don't support the argument that NASCAR is disproportionately racist? Hard to assume that considering you've not ask him/her for source.

 

[Upchurch]

Good. Why did you jump in on a conversation with another poster?

Because you made a claim that sounded ridiculous given actual history and was actually on topic, unlike NASCAR.

 

[DGM]

Because you made a claim that sounded ridiculous given actual history and was actually on topic, unlike NASCAR.

I asked for a reason why NASCAR was considered predominately racist. The answer was, "red necks". Did you miss this or do you agree? When you jump in, maybe you should read for context.

 

[Checkmite]

I think you miss a point. Yes, I understand what a symbol may have meant in the past but, I believe these symbols can evolve. The swastika would be a real tough (and I think offensive) sell but, the Confederate battle flag has in fact evolved over the years. The Confederate battle flag is not the real issue here. The fact some think it is......................

Of course the Confederate flag and its racist connotations are the "real issue". That's what the entire thread, and the entire decades-long debate about the flag, has been about. On the contrary, what is actually "not the real issue here" is Dylan Roof, and the particulars of his case. People were using the flag as an expression of racism, and people were identifying it as racist and demanding for instance that it be removed from South Carolina state property, long before Roof came along.

 

[DGM]

Of course the Confederate flag and its racist connotations are the "real issue". That's what the entire thread, and the entire decades-long debate about the flag, has been about. On the contrary, what is actually "not the real issue here" is Dylan Roof, and the particulars of his case. People were using the flag as an expression of racism, and people were identifying it as racist and demanding for instance that it be removed from South Carolina state property, long before Roof came along.

I'm glad you said this. Let's abolish the flag and make racism disappear. (well at least until after the election).

 

[thaiboxerken]

I support my claim with personal experience.

And so do I. I'm not making any claims of fact, just stating opinions based on my travels around the USA.

 

[Giordano]

I think you miss a point. Yes, I understand what a symbol may have meant in the past but, I believe these symbols can evolve. The swastika would be a real tough (and I think offensive) sell but, the Confederate battle flag has in fact evolved over the years. The Confederate battle flag is not the real issue here. The fact some think it is......................

Sorry, but it hasn't evolved nearly enough! Not enough to be a welcoming sign for black people, or Jews, or Hispanics, etc. Not enough for the KKK to abandon it in disgust. Not enough to represent all the people now in the South, let alone in the USA as a whole. If it is meant to honor the Southern dead in the Civil War, how is it not an insult to the Northern dead? Do American blacks in the South typically value what is symbolizes?

I am willing to accept that some, maybe most people who wave it don't understand this. But what on Earth is the point? What is it celebrating, in your mind? And why not use an untainted symbol instead, because this one has an awful history? If you want to emphasize how much the South has evolved, then adopt a symbol that emphasizes this, not a symbol that says the opposite to most people.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I'm glad you said this. Let's abolish the flag and make racism disappear. (well at least until after the election).

I don't think anyone is claiming that racism will disappear after the flag is gone. However, the more the general population shames the symbols of white supremacy, the less power those symbols will have.

 

[Walter Ego]

That is neither a source nor evidence for rum runners using the Cofederate flag as a symbol. NASCAR came after Prohibition.

It is highly unlikely that the Confederate flag had any significance to Prohibition, since the flag was not widely used between the end of the Civil War and the late 1950s or early 1960s.

This meme probably came from moonshiners souping up cars in the backwoods of the south to evade revenuers. Cf. the movie Thunder Road and the career of NASCAR superstar Junior Johnson.

Johnson was born in Wilkes County, North Carolina, the fourth of seven children of Lora Belle Money and Robert Glenn Johnson, Sr. His father, a lifelong bootlegger, spent nearly twenty of his sixty-three years in prison, as their house was frequently raided by revenue agents. Junior spent one year in prison in Ohio for having an illegal still, although he was never caught in his many years of transporting bootleg liquor at high speed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_Johnson