South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[luchog]

Another anecdote: I've lived in just about every region in the US, and my current location--even though I think it's a great town--is the most racist place I've ever lived.

Cleveland, OH.

Having been a bunch of different places, and worked with people from even more, I'd say this is possibly wrong.

What I found is that there is different types of racism around the country; which affects how racism is perceived. From what I've seen, it looks like in the midwest, southwest, and northeast, racism tends to be more open, in-your-face, and blatantly dismissive. In the South, racism tends to be more subtle, condescending, and patronizing. In the northwest, it tends to be more cold, aloof, and avoidant.

Obviously, that's just my personal observation.

 

[Meadmaker]

Missed the point. The flag was more of a "stick it to the man" symbol adopted by the "rum runners". It's a Rebel flag.

No, no, no. The flag only means one thing. There can be no other meanings. Haven't you been paying attention?

 

[dudalb]

No, no, no. The flag only means one thing. There can be no other meanings. Haven't you been paying attention?

No one is saying that flag only means one thing.
But the thing it most is seen as potraying is slavery and racism.And preception,in this case ,is reality. You seem to have problems understanding that.

 

[DGM]

No one is saying that flag only means one thing.
But the thing it most is seen as potraying is slavery and racism.And preception,in this case ,is reality. You seem to have problems understanding that.

Sad part, this move makes people think they're doing something to fight racism.

 

[Upchurch]

No, no, no. The flag only means one thing. There can be no other meanings. Haven't you been paying attention?

You clearly haven't.

Yes, the flag can mean many things, but they are all rooted in the Confederacy and the Confederacy was racist to the core.

 

[Upchurch]

The flag was more of a "stick it to the man" symbol adopted by the "rum runners".

During Prohibition? Source?

 

[DGM]

During Prohibition? Source?

I bet you think "Dukes of Hazard" was a show promoting racism.

 

[Upchurch]

I bet you think "Dukes of Hazard" was a show promoting racism.

Are you claiming that rum runners adopted the Confederate flag during Prohibition as a "stick it to the man" symbol?

 

[DavidJames]

Sad part, this move makes people think they're doing something to fight racism.

Don't get trapped by the perfect solution fallacy.

Stopping the government from endorsing it, having companies stop making and selling it will go a long way towards making the flag socially unacceptable. Which will help isolate racists even further. Will it eliminate it? Of course not, that doesn't mean society should just throw up it's hands and give in.

 

[DavidJames]

I bet you think "Dukes of Hazard" was a show promoting racism.

I don't know, do you? Regardless, it allowed people like Roof to feel more comfortable in racists clothes.

 

[DGM]

Are you claiming that rum runners adopted the Confederate flag during Prohibition as a "stick it to the man" symbol?

Yes, mostly because of their geographic location (Appalachia region). Do you think it's a coincidence it's also known as the "Rebel" flag?

BTW: It's not the Confederate State flag. It was a battle flag.

 

[dudalb]

I don't know, do you? Regardless, it allowed people like Roof to feel more comfortable in racists clothes.

I would bet money that the use of the Confederate Flag in Dukes was not meant to promote racism,any more then some of the Southren Rock bands using it meant to be racist. Go join thaiboxerken in the "painting in the broad brush" corner.
And is see the some people accept anything written on the HUffpo as gospel truth.
BTW, I think that article proving that the Dukes was racist is a pile of crap.

 

[SezMe]

Sad part, this move makes people think they're doing something to fight racism.

There's another sad part to all this emphasis on the flag. The gun issue just disappeared. After other mass shootings at least some time, usually less than 48 hours . was given to gun violence and prevention ideas. Not in this case. The NRA must be buying champagne in wholesale lots.

 

[DGM]

Don't get trapped by the perfect solution fallacy.

Stopping the government from endorsing it, having companies stop making and selling it will go a long way towards making the flag socially unacceptable. Which will help isolate racists even further. Will it eliminate it? Of course not, that doesn't mean society should just throw up it's hands and give in.

True but, there are other meanings for this battle flag. This was not the flag of the Confederate states. A large number of people (myself included) do not see it as a promotion of racism. Like I said, it's also known as the "rebel" flag. Is being a rebel always wrong?

 

[dudalb]

And I am now afraid we are entering in a witch hunt atmosphere;the right wing having made fools of themsleves over this issue,now it;s the turn of the left wing PC racist witch hunters.
And it's time to spill the beans: certain people on the political left have a contempt for anything seen as being part of "Southren culture".

 

[Meadmaker]

College football is also huge down south.

The significance of the Confederate battle flag in NASCAR is not based in racism.

No one is saying that flag only means one thing.
But the thing it most is seen as potraying is slavery and racism.And preception,in this case ,is reality. You seem to have problems understanding that.

You clearly haven't.

Yes, the flag can mean many things, but they are all rooted in the Confederacy and the Confederacy was racist to the core.

dudalb,

What I'm having trouble is finding anything that matters in the difference between "the flag only has one meaning", and "all the meanings of the flag....(fill in the slight variations that follow. One is above.)

The point is the dgm seems to think that the use of the flag in NASCAR is not "based in racism", but it seems that other people think that all meanings of the flag anywhere are based in racism.






As for my own position, I remain consistent. It doesn't make sense to fly that flag in any way that could be associated with a modern state government, as in South Carolina before today, but pursuing it off of coasters sold at gift shops is sanctimonious. Based on events yesterday I will add that refusing to allow it on a soldier's grave is downright petty, in addition to being sanctimonious.

I liked a phrase I read in an article today. They called opposition to the flag "cost free semiotics". It sums up my attitude quite nicely. Those who pursue the anti-flag efforts are taking a no risk position on a purely symbolic, utterly meaningless, pursuit.

Meanwhile, in other articles, efforts to have statues removed were detailed. I stand unashamedly "pro-statue", even more so than I am "pro-coaster". Those statues are historic. I'm not saying there is never any statue anywhere that I would ever pull down, but there aren't many, and I don't want to be in the company of most statue-destroyers I'm familiar with. If there's a statue of Bobby Lee in a park somewhere, I say let it stand.

 

[NoahFence]

Sad part, this move makes people think they're doing something to fight racism.

I know. It's maddening, isn't it?

"So this is going to stop black on black shooing now"?

 

[DavidJames]

The point is the dgm seems to think that the use of the flag in NASCAR is not "based in racism", but it seems that other people think that all meanings of the flag anywhere are based in racism.

You are completely misreading what others are saying. I don't believe it's intentional, but it sure is consistent.

Can you not see the difference between.

other people think that all meanings of the flag anywhere are based in racism.
and
The flag can mean many things, but they are all rooted in the Confederacy and the Confederacy was racist to the core.

It's clear as day to me.

 

[DavidJames]

And I am now afraid we are entering in a witch hunt atmosphere;the right wing having made fools of themsleves over this issue,now it;s the turn of the left wing PC racist witch hunters.
And it's time to spill the beans: certain people on the political left have a contempt for anything seen as being part of "Southren culture".

I think you should put the strawman beans back in the can.

Between you and me, I'm sick of the anti-intellectual ******** cop out saying "they all do it". To me, it make Godwin look like skeptical perfection.

 

[DGM]

I wonder how many flags should be banned for promoting racism? I can think of at least a dozen connected with the settlement of North America.