'What about building 7'?

[jaydeehess]

I assume you meant when WTC 2 collapsed. But in addition to Billy, Mike also had Viennie and Galeato with the generators on the fifth floor, also with radios. According to Mike Catalano Vinnie came down the stairs with Billy when WTC 2 collapsed. No one heard anything.

I note that MM does not consider Mike's story as reliable.

Yes, WTC2, my bad, wish I could have two windows open on this tablet at the same time...

Point stands though that MM has on several occasions quoted Catalano on his description of the second plane impact and where the man was when that occurred, commented on it, then immediately quotes his description of the effect of WTC2 collapse without reference to where Catalano is at that time. The inference is that the effect is the same at the top of the building as it is at the bottom. Jennings was midway up the building.

Nor does MM ever bother with mentioning that when the first aircraft hit the closer north tower, that Catalano was one floor above where he was when the south tower was hit, and yet for that first crash he "just felt and heard a thump", same thump they had heard when the tower bombing occurred.

I find it difficult to accept that impact into the farther south tower would cause a much greater WTC7 shaking than did the impact into WTC1, while Catalano was on the roof and then the 47th floor.

As for WTC2 collapsing and its effect on WTC7, Catalano is in the third floor lobby and the greatest danger is the dust and debris. That would not be an issue on the 23rd floor. There are no doors to the outside that could blow open and allow dust in and nothing coming at the windows of the 23rd floor will be breaking them at this point.
It is also quite easy to envision this influx of dust to affect the stairwells up through several floors. Hess described the descent as being dusty/smoky for a few floors before they got to the sixth.
The lights went out then came back on. In the lobby! Good chance that they would " flicker" elsewhere in the building or that the apparent 5 or so minute outage that Catalano experienced would be described as a "flicker". Gensets generally start up, run for a few minutes to ensure proper output is being generated, then street power connection is cut and generator power transferred to building circuits.

Given the nastiness of the effect on WTC7 at lobby level when the south tower fell, one would expect even greater effect when the north tower fell and that this would be especially noticible to persons in the lower floors such as the sixth. While neither impact, nor the collapse of WTC2 saw heavy debris impacting 7, the collapse of WTC1 did. Aircraft impacts and the fall of WTC2 did no structural damage to WTC7, but the collapse of WTC1 did.

The most significant effect on WTC 7 that Jennings and Hess report is the shaking of the building and huge influx of dust and lights that go out and never come back on, which occurred when they reached the sixth floor.


Later, Jennings infers that the towers collapse when FFs leave the area twice. If that were true they would have first experienced something similar to what Catalano did in the lobby when WTC2 collapsed, while only 3-5 floors higher than Catalano. Then they would have experienced the collapse debris impacts of WTC1 while on a level that DID suffer very significant structural damage to exterior columns at that time. Yet Jennings had to infer collapses from the actions of the FFs?

 

[jaydeehess]

Exactly, or how the behavior of the former head of security for Solomon Smith Barney in WTC 7 was stamped as suspicious by MM, just because he risked his own life going back up into to the building after the collapse of WTC 2, to look for people he was concerned could still be left in the building. That could of course not be considered as a plausible explanation at all, could it? Of course not, the man has security in his job title, he must certainely be in on the wast, grand and complicated conspiracy to blow up his own place of work, and that for reasons no CT-er have come even remotely close to being able to explain on a rational level.

In the book Catalano exits with other people after WTC2 collapses. After exiting they are on the north side of WTC7 and just after they see Billy Rogers (who, in this account, had started down from the top floor after the second impact) and others come out onto iirc, Washington Street, WTC1 collapses and they run.

He describes the effort to clear the building as being after the second aircraft impact, after the evacuation call.

 

[Miragememories]

Still not interested in the truth I see Glenn.

No response from you re: posts 2430 and 2448 Glenn.

Point out the mistake or untruth and I'll retract immediately.

Glenn you are dodging.

The truth you are clearly not interested in is the NIST's unvalidated statement from their final report which declares that 2 WTC was collapsing when Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess were supposedly at the elevator on the 23rd floor as part of their evacuation of 7 WTC.

"MM's torturing of well-established and reliable accounts, reason, and plain logic, has one purpose only - to defend the idea that Jennings and Hess experienced the effects of explosives down by level 6..."

"As they went to get into an elevator to go downstairs, the lights inside WTC 7 flickered as WTC 2 collapsed."

That NIST lie is compounded by a second lie, when they claim that it took Mr. Jenning's and Mr. Hess's 30 minutes to hurry down to the 6th floor stairwell landing.

Clearly, the NIST does this so they can claim the explosive destruction of that landing was caused by the collapse of 1 WTC.

You conceded the window was broken after the collapses, yet accept that Jennings saw both buildings standing while on that floor.

This puts J+H on the 8th for a solid 30 minutes and you have accepted this fact, no?

Proof that Mr. Jennings did not break the 8th floor windows as soon as you would like us to believe can be ascertained in a number of ways.

2 WTC could not have collapsed at the time when Mr. Jennings was near the elevator, as part of his OEM evacuation from the 23rd floor. The experience related by Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess at that time was in no way comparable with what others in 7 WTC experienced when 2 WTC actually collapsed.

"Then Security and the Police took us to the freight elevators where they took us back up and we did get in.

Upon arriving into the OEM EOC,..we notice that..everybody was gone.

I saw coffee that was on the desk. Still. The smoke was still coming off the coffee.

I saw..I saw er half eaten sandwiches.

And..only me and Mr. Hess was up there.

After I called several individuals, one individual told me that, um "to leave, and leave right away."

Mr. Hess came running back in.

He said "we're the only ones up here, we gotta get out of here."

He found the stairwell.

So we went to the stairwell and we're going down the stairs..."

If you then argue that the explosive destruction of the 6th floor stairwell landing was caused by the collapse of 2 WTC and not 1 WTC, you have the problem of greater distance and even less corroborating evidence of damage to 7 WTC (especially at that location).

So. Regardless of Mr. Jenning's claim that he looked, and saw the WTC twin towers still standing when he reached the 8th floor, there is no evidence to support the argument that either of those two towers could have collapsed before he reached the 8th floor.

2 WTC could not have collapsed when Mr. Jennings was at the 23rd floor elevator, because Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess would have heard and felt, in no small way, some part of what the other 7 WTC occupants experienced.

As revealed by their testimony, at that time, neither Mr. Jennings or Mr. Hess showed the slightest hint that they shared the same horrific experience as the other occupants of 7 WTC.

"Then everything went pitch black.

The rumbling, the screeching, and the noises — you can’t imagine.

I really can’t describe it.

It was nasty.

I’m telling you the building was shaking."

If 2 WTC did collapse when Mr. Jennings was at the 23rd floor elevator, and he rapidly fled down the nearby stairs, it could not have taken him 30 minutes, which is the known time between the two collapses.

So whether you like it or not, if the collapses occurred before Mr. Jennings broke the 8th floor windows, he must have broken them at least 30 minutes after he observed that the WTC twin towers were still standing.

And, like it or not, something other than the WTC twin tower collapses must have caused the explosive destruction of the 6th floor stairwell landing when Mr. Jennings arrived there.

 

[DGM]

Clearly, the NIST does this so they can claim the explosive destruction of that landing was caused by the collapse of 1 WTC.

Can you show evidence that it wasn't? They have several witness accounts, you have one confused account. Was there any reports of damage to the building prior to the collapse. Maybe you could show some broken windows caused by such a large blast.

Do you have anything other than a confused* account from one person.

*you have said this yourself

 

[Norseman]

In the book Catalano exits with other people after WTC2 collapses. After exiting they are on the north side of WTC7 and just after they see Billy Rogers (who, in this account, had started down from the top floor after the second impact) and others come out onto iirc, Washington Street, WTC1 collapses and they run.

He describes the effort to clear the building as being after the second aircraft impact, after the evacuation call.

That is right. But just to make sure that we are not mixing up persons here. In my post I was talking about Peter Mulroy, who was head of security for Salomon Smith Barney(SSB) in WTC 7, he asked Catalano (chief engineer for SSB) to organize a floor by floor search with his men, to make sure that everybody had evacuated from SSB's floors. That would be floor 28 to 45, that was rented by SSB i assume. They were the largest tenant in the building, and had done pretty extensive improvements on the buildings emergency power and ventilation, hence Catalano's responsibilities for mechanical infrastructure in the building.

But Peter Mulroy, went back up after the collapse of WTC 2, and on his way down after the collapse of WTC 1, it became to difficult to breathe when he came down to Floor 7, left the stairwell and got trapped on Floor 7.

In the video showing the lobby area of WTC 7 after the collapse of WTC 2, it looks like we can see Peter Mulroy and the police officer that accompanied him as far Floor 10, before turning back down due to breathing problems, as the camera team passes by the loading docks on their way away from the building. They are talking about stairs, before moving to the back of the loading dock, to enter the west stairwell. At 4.25 in the video, Mulroy would be the man in suite with the bullhorn he later used to call for help. As I wrote in an earlier post, it is likely him we can hear calling for help at beginning of the video with Hess trapped on the 8th floor. Just some more corroborating information to the overall story, that I happened to notice yesterday.

And that leads us back to the problem with the story MM wants us to believe in. If Hess and Jennings were forced into Floor 8th before the collapse of either tower, by an explosion that no one else noticed, why couldn't they quiet simply walk over to the west stairwell and get out, just like every one else. Nor was there any lack of first responders in the area, who could have gone up and rescued them out, like they did later after the collapse of WTC 1.

And then we have Jose Gregori and George Hall who were searching Floor 28 on the southeast side when WTC 2 collapsed. They may very well have taken the east stairwell down for all what we know.

 

[jaydeehess]

Ok , missed that

 

[thedopefishlives]

MM, I take issue with one thing you said. You said

Clearly, the NIST does this so they can claim the explosive destruction of that landing was caused by the collapse of 1 WTC.

Can you prove that NIST did this? Or are you just making a logical leap based on your fantasy timeline that has no basis in reality?

 

[Norseman]

Cheers. It's yards from the WTC so not much of a diversion.

When I last debated this issue here some years back, I thought that the place were they interviewed Jennings maybe could give an indication on where he had his day to day office, since the interview was done in his lunchtime. I found that the building you can see behind him on the left side in the video was the UN building. That would place him directly across the East River. I thought they maybe did the interview on top of his office building. But a search for NYCHA addresses did not turn up anything in that area. So it ended up inconclusive.

This weekend I thought it could be interesting to maybe pinpoint more exactly were they did the interview. By drawing a line from the spire on the Chrysler Building across the roof of the UN Building, and with a little help from Google Street View, I found that they must have been standing right next to the waterfront at the end of 48th Avenue. One of the most popular places to photograph the New York skyline I found. So I guess that they agreed to meet and do the interview there, just to have a nice view in the background. And at spot in no way associated with Jennings place of work.

Given Jennings responsibilities at the time it would be reasonable to think that 250 Broadway was his place of work, I agree. But NYCHA is a big organization with office space other places to. If he parked at 250 Broadway it would be approximately a 5 minute walk to get to WTC 7. And he was still in his car when he received the phone call some unknown time after the aircraft hit WTC 1, he would need complete his journey, park and walk over etc.

So that was the result of my little Google investigation challenge.

 

[jaydeehess]

MM, I take issue with one thing you said. You said

Can you prove that NIST did this? Or are you just making a logical leap based on your fantasy timeline that has no basis in reality?

Its the starting point for truthers on the subject of the NIST reports. They know assume that the "official story" is false and therefore the NIST reports must have been generated first and foremost, to back that falsehood.

 

[Miragememories]

That NIST lie is compounded by a second lie, when they claim that it took Mr. Jenning's and Mr. Hess's 30 minutes to hurry down to the 6th floor stairwell landing.

Clearly, the NIST does this so they can claim the explosive destruction of that landing was caused by the collapse of 1 WTC.

Can you show evidence that it wasn't?

It was not Mr. Jennings claiming he was at those locations when the WTC towers collapsed.

He was emphatic that he saw the still standing WTC twin towers after he reached the 8th floor.

But, without any evidence submitted as proof that Mr. Jennings was in error, the NIST claimed in their final report that Mr. Jennings was at the 23rd floor elevators when 2 WTC collapsed, and 30 minutes later, the NIST claims he was at the 6th floor stairwell landing when 1 WTC collapsed.

There are no witness accounts that corroborate this.

Common sense, empirical testing, and Mr. Jenning's and Mr. Hess's own testimony, argue that it is unreasonable to accept those NIST claims.

There is no disagreement that Mr. Jennings was told in no uncertain terms that he had to evacuate immediately.

We have evidence from the senior 7 WTC building engineer that when 2 WTC collapsed, it caused far more than a brief light flicker.

At the time of his departure, Mr. Jennings did not report any power interruption.

We know the stairwell was close to the elevators and the floor was fully lit at the time that Mr. Jennings evacuated.

Myself, and others here, have made timed descents down similar stairwells over the same number of floors and have concluded that it is easy to do the trip in a fraction of the 30 minutes allotted by the NIST.

So given the urgency, the stairwell proximity, the fully lighted floor, the testimony that he was hurrying, and the test results from timed descents, it is inconceivable that Mr. Jenning's descent used the 30 minutes mandated by the NIST claim.

And that leads us back to the problem with the story MM wants us to believe in.

If Hess and Jennings were forced into Floor 8th before the collapse of either tower, by an explosion that no one else noticed, why couldn't they quiet simply walk over to the west stairwell and get out, just like every one else.

Unfortunately, we do not know how Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess spent much of their time while on the 8th floor.

We do know that Mr. Jennings said he had swollen knees (possibly from having the 6th floor landing drop out from under him).

We know, based on the failed NIST claims, that after the explosion below the 6th floor landing, Mr. Jennings climbed to the 8th floor, and then, following his observation that the WTC twin towers were still standing, Mr. Jennings must have experienced the collapse of 2 WTC.

Mr. Jennings made it quite clear that at the time when 2 WTC collapsed, he did not actually see what was happening.

But, he did say that "after", not when, he arrived at the 8th floor, everything became dark and very, very hot.

To me this suggests that he arrived at the 8th floor, observed the WTC twin towers were still standing, was continuing to hear explosions, wandered out of view of the towers, and everything became dark and hot as 2 WTC collapsed. After 30 minutes, it was very hot, he continued to hear explosions and 1 WTC collapsed.

At this point, not knowing that some of the the unseen explosions he had experienced were the collapses of the WTC twin towers, Mr. Jennings being very desperate, found a fire extinguisher and began breaking out windows in the hopes of finding would be rescuers.

 

[DGM]

But, without any evidence submitted as proof that Mr. Jennings was in error, the NIST claimed in their final report that Mr. Jennings was at the 23rd floor elevators when 2 WTC collapsed, and 30 minutes later, the NIST claims he was at the 6th floor stairwell landing when 1 WTC collapsed.

They did give evidence. They used the time-lines of other testimony and came to this conclusion. That's called evidence (other testimony) and using all of it together is called logic.

There are no witness accounts that corroborate this.

There are plenty however that show Mr Jennings time-line has to be wrong. Funny thing, how many witness accounts are there showing Mr Jennings actually did see the towers when he claimed. He didn't put two and two together they had already collapsed when he broke the window.

At the time of his departure, Mr. Jennings did not report any power interruption.

We know the stairwell was close to the elevators and the floor was fully lit at the time that Mr. Jennings evacuated.

But, Mr Hess did imply that it was dark when the "explosion" occurred (and it got darker).

The fact Mr Jennings didn't mention it is worthless. He didn't mention all sorts of things.

 

[jaydeehess]

Wow, no matter how many other witness statements demonstrate the error in Jennings' timeline, MM is demanding that everyone else' s be shoehorned to agree with Jennings or ignored entirely.

 

[DGM]

Wow, no matter how many other witness statements demonstrate the error in Jennings' timeline, MM is demanding that everyone else' s be shoehorned to agree with Jennings or ignored entirely.

When it's all you got....................................

 

[DGM]

Has MM a theory as to what Mr Jennings was doing on the 8th floor for a half hour +?

Apparently his urgency to evacuate had subsided for a while.

 

[GlennB]

We know the stairwell was close to the elevators and the floor was fully lit at the time that Mr. Jennings evacuated.

Let me offer an image different from the heavily-cropped one you keep posting:



... and let's suppose they return to the service elevator they arrived in, a pretty natural course of action I'd say. How far from the S service elevator to the E stairwell?

But, he did say that "after", not when, he arrived at the 8th floor, everything became dark and very, very hot.

I see nothing in the Jennings transcripts that suggests "became". He said "was".

Are you torturing linguistics now?

Meanwhile ... how come they spent 30+ minutes on the 8th floor without remarking on the Tower collapses or failing to find the other stairwell without registering those facts along the way? Were they having a coffee and a sandwich? Playing Scrabble?

 

[jaydeehess]

In MM's preferred timeline, neither Jennings or Hess says anything at all about the effect of either tower collapse on WTC7.
Yet in arguing that they could not have been on the 23rd floor when #2 fell he complains that while others low down described the building shaking and filling with dust and getting dark. According to Jennings and MM the only effect of the tower collapses he experienced is that the FFs left the area for a few minutes.

Kah-razzy

 

[DGM]

In MM's preferred timeline, neither Jennings or Hess says anything at all about the effect of either tower collapse on WTC7.
Yet in arguing that they could not have been on the 23rd floor when #2 fell he complains that while others low down described the building shaking and filling with dust and getting dark. According to Jennings and MM the only effect of the tower collapses he experienced is that the FFs left the area for a few minutes.

Kah-razzy

This can't be wrong...................Mr Jennings would have commented on it...

ETA: Actually he did and his time-line was wrong. Could he also be wrong about other events?

 

[JayUtah]

When it's all you got....................................

Indeed. By my count it's more than thirty pages of MM flogging this same witness testimony.

 

[NoahFence]

Is all the lying and willful misinterpreting of these accounds so MM can say that there were explosives going off inside WTC7?

He still hasn't accounted for the fact that it remained standing for over 7 hours.

 

[JayUtah]

Once you've committed yourself to magical thermite, you just make the thermite more magical.