'What about building 7'?

[GlennB]

Here is a link to a bulletin regarding his passing:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nycha/downloads/pdf/emp_bulletin_oct_2008.pdf

It says he was the Deputy Director of the Emergency Services Department. The bulletin is for employees of the NYCHA.

One of the addresses in the bulletin says:
New York City Housing Authority
Department of Communications
250 Broadway - 12th floor
New York, NY 10007
(212) 306-4384

I looked up the contact information and it also lists the 250 Broadway address.

Maybe this will help?

Cheers. It's yards from the WTC so not much of a diversion.

 

[DGM]

Elsewhere MM suggests the 'before 9:03' might not be right, but also says :

Another problem is, after the second plane struck, building security held everyone in the lobby for several minutes in fear of injuries from falling debris. The lobby was described as "packed" for several minutes until it was decided to allow people to leave out exits other than the south. Jennings says there was nobody around, this would have to be 9:30+.

 

[Miragememories]

I don't believe that the OEM was built to the level of sound proofing that your post wants us to believe.

"He was in the Chill box when the first plane hit and even in a sound proof room heard the boom."

If Mike Catalano reported hearing the plane crash from a sound proof location, I would expect people in the 23rd floor OEM to perceive the even louder sound of 2 WTC collapsing.

Your timeline has them on the 8th floor when both towers collapsed, yet apparently not noticing those collapses even though they had plentiful access to windows and less sound proofing.

Mr. Jennings only said he did not see the collapses.

Many people who were at the WTC on 9/11 did not see the collapses but most certainly experienced them.

It's not too hard to work out what he must believe it to be, give or take a little either way, (all times somewhat approximate, with "Jennings timeline" notes in red):

8:46 - WTC1 struck

8:50 - receives call to divert to WTC7 4 minutes after WTC1 impact, an optimistically fast response imo, but plausible

9:00 - arrives, meets Hess, ascends to floor 23 to find OEM locked. Wildly optimistic speed of diversion and arrival, but conceivable if, by chance, he was passing very close by. Is it even possible to park that quickly, get to the lobby and go up 23 floors?

9:03 - WTC2 struck. Jennings is unaware of this, possibly because he's in soundproofed EOM by now, or on an elevator trip.

9:10 - arrives again at OEM and gets in, finding it deserted. Makes a few calls, is told to evacuate. timeline flatly contradicted by others who watched the WTC2 strike while in the OEM, and the fact that the order to evacuate it was given at 9:30, with the evacuation complete sometime after that.

This is where the available information regarding evacuations differs.

"OEM Commissioner John Odermatt, who later says that after the first plane hit the WTC, he left only two staffers there." [Barrett and Collins, 2006, pp. 34, from Grand Illusion]"

"Today is reportedly “going to be a busy day at the OEM,” as staff members have come to work early to prepare for Tripod, a major biological-terrorism training exercise scheduled for September 12 (see http://www.historycommons.org/timel...ete_911_timeline&startpos=4100#a091201tripod2). Their building shakes when the North Tower is hit at 8:46 a.m. OEM Commissioner John Odermatt initially believes a freak accident has occurred involving a ground-to-air missile, but soon after, OEM is informed that a plane hit the North Tower. Immediately, OEM staff members begin to activate their emergency command center, located on the 23rd floor of WTC 7 (see http://www.historycommons.org/timel...300#complete_911_timeline_060899commandcenter). http://transweb.sjsu.edu/MTIportal/research/publications/documents/Sept11.book.htm, PP. 15]"

http://www.scribd.com/doc/19273744/Responding-to-Horror

"When the second plane hit the south tower [9:02 am], we were heading to the elevators to go down. I said, “No elevators.” We used the staircase. We had our uniforms on and our radios and our badges. The staircase was packed. People were evacuating on their own. It was very orderly. We had fire drills every month. They didn’t evacuate the whole building; they evacuated to certain areas. People knew where to go and they were going. We made it*down in minutes....

Guesstimate that he made it down by 9:10 am.

"But there was still no official*evacuation, even though we had been informed*that the Secret Service and two other major*agencies were already gone. I told the overall*head of security that*we’d better call an official evacuation. He said, “Now Mike, it’s across the street. We’re not in a state of*emergency.” I said, “I*don’t care what’s going on across the street. There are bodies dropping outside. People are panicking. Let’s get everyone out, now.” And*he said no. I almost lunged at him. Fortunately the property manager of 7 World Trade in its entirety was there. He looked at me and said, “Mike, are you calling for evacuation?” I said, “Absolutely.” He gets on the PA system and speaks throughout the building...

Now the cops are coming in."

Guesstimate of 9:15 am.

"As I arrived there, there were police..all in the lobby. They..showed me the way to the elevator."

This may be wrong but I'm allowing for the possibility that Mr. Jennings was unaware that 2 WTC had already been attacked and that he arrived after the full evacuation announcement about the same time as the police who were as yet unsure themselves about what was happening re: evacuation.

Arrival time and first elevator trip to OEM and return to lobby guesstimate of 9:15 - 9:25 am.

The police and security then escort them back to the 23rd floor OEM via a freight elevator.

Second return to the OEM Guesstimate 9:25 - 9:30 am they return to the OEC

"Upon arriving into the OEM EOC,..we notice that..everybody was gone.

I saw coffee that was on the desk. Still. The smoke was still coming off the coffee.

I saw..I saw er half eaten sandwiches.

And..only me and Mr. Hess was up there.

After I called several individuals, one individual told me that, um "to leave, and leave right away."

Mr. Hess came running back in.

He said "we're the only ones up here, we gotta get out of here."

He found the stairwell."

Guesstimate 9:30 - 9:40 am., after a few phone calls and not experiencing any external noise or vibration they are told to immediately evacuate.

9:15 - begins descent of stairs.

Guesstimate 9:40 - 9:50 am. They hurriedly descend to the 6th floor where their way is barred by an explosion and they ascend to the 8th floor.

9:30 - incident on the 6th floor, returns to 8th floor, observes both towers still standing

Guesstimate 9:50 - 9:58 am.From a location on the 8th floor, Mr. Jennings observes that the WTC twin towers are still standing.

9:59 - WTC2 collapses. Jennings doesn't notice

9:59 - 10:28 am. Mr. Jennings does not see, but hears numerous explosions while experiencing the surroundings become dark, smoky and increasingly hot.

Sometime after 10:28 am, following the collapse of 1 WTC, Mr. Jennings breaks out two windows, one of which is in the NE corner.

10:28 - WTC1 collapses. Jennings doesn't notice a VAST building just across the street collapsing and hurling debris at the one he was in.

10:35 - Jennings breaks NE corner window and talks to first responders in the street. MM has agreed the window was only broken after the tower collapses.

Between 12:00 and 13:00 - Jennings and Hess rescued

That time of rescue time is disputed based on the time both Mr. Jenning and Mr. Hess were interviewed live on TV after their rescue.

--------------

Times there are somewhat arguable, such as how long to descend the stairs etc

Feel free to hack it around with better estimates.

A timeline running about an hour later than Jennings' makes sense of the whole thing if we acceot that he didn't see the towers standing when on the 8th.

If we want to retain that part then we have to accept totally irrational parts elsewhere.

Well, those are my flexible, but I believe reasonable, timeline guesstimates based on my listed sources.

 

[Gamolon]

Mr. Jennings only said he did not see the collapses.

Many people who were at the WTC on 9/11 did not see the collapses but most certainly experienced them.



This is where the available information regarding evacuations differs.


[qimg]http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj515/Miragememories/816_john_odermatt_2050081722-12336-1_zps9d06b79f.jpg[/qimg]
"OEM Commissioner John Odermatt, who later says that after the first plane hit the WTC, he left only two staffers there." [Barrett and Collins, 2006, pp. 34, from Grand Illusion]"

"Today is reportedly “going to be a busy day at the OEM,” as staff members have come to work early to prepare for Tripod, a major biological-terrorism training exercise scheduled for September 12 (see http://www.historycommons.org/timel...ete_911_timeline&startpos=4100#a091201tripod2). Their building shakes when the North Tower is hit at 8:46 a.m. OEM Commissioner John Odermatt initially believes a freak accident has occurred involving a ground-to-air missile, but soon after, OEM is informed that a plane hit the North Tower. Immediately, OEM staff members begin to activate their emergency command center, located on the 23rd floor of WTC 7 (see http://www.historycommons.org/timel...300#complete_911_timeline_060899commandcenter). http://transweb.sjsu.edu/MTIportal/research/publications/documents/Sept11.book.htm, PP. 15]"

http://www.scribd.com/doc/19273744/Responding-to-Horror


Guesstimate that he made it down by 9:10 am.



Guesstimate of 9:15 am.



This may be wrong but I'm allowing for the possibility that Mr. Jennings was unaware that 2 WTC had already been attacked and that he arrived after the full evacuation announcement about the same time as the police who were as yet unsure themselves about what was happening re: evacuation.

Arrival time and first elevator trip to OEM and return to lobby guesstimate of 9:15 - 9:25 am.

The police and security then escort them back to the 23rd floor OEM via a freight elevator.

Second return to the OEM Guesstimate 9:25 - 9:30 am they return to the OEC



Guesstimate 9:30 - 9:40 am., after a few phone calls and not experiencing any external noise or vibration they are told to immediately evacuate.



Guesstimate 9:40 - 9:50 am. They hurriedly descend to the 6th floor where their way is barred by an explosion and they ascend to the 8th floor.

Where they then busted out a window and Jennings observed cars and buses burning in the street. How were the cars and buses burning already if the towers had not yet collapsed?

Guesstimate 9:50 - 9:58 am.From a location on the 8th floor, Mr. Jennings observes that the WTC twin towers are still standing.

And in the same instant Jennings notes the towers are standing, he looks one way, then back, and then there was nothing there. So he basically says the towers were there at one moment and gone the next.

9:59 - 10:28 am. Mr. Jennings does not see, but hears numerous explosions while experiencing the surroundings become dark, smoky and increasingly hot.

No.

The surroundings did not become dark, smoky, and increasingly hot during the 9:59 - 10:28 am timeframe you post above. Jennings clearly states that when they got back to the 8th floor after experiencing the "explosion", THAT'S when it was dark and very, very hot. This puts the "dark and hot" experience that he describes at your 9:40 - 9:50 am timeframe above.

 

[jaydeehess]

Guesstimate that he made it down by 9:10 am.

Guesstimate of 9:15 am.


This may be wrong but I'm allowing for the possibility that Mr. Jennings was unaware that 2 WTC had already been attacked and that he arrived after the full evacuation announcement about the same time as the police who were as yet unsure themselves about what was happening re: evacuation.

Arrival time and first elevator trip to OEM and return to lobby guesstimate of 9:15 - 9:25 am.

Oh its patently obvious that Jennings arrived well after WTC2 was hit. Even your optimistic timeline has the full evac occurring at 9:15 with a lobby full of people. People Jennings never saw. So even if your timeline for a call for evac of 9:15 is correct it must still be some minutes later when Jennings arrives, and that must also assume that the upper storeys were all but devoid of people, that no one else was coming down into the lobby between the time when that order was given, and when Jennings exited the lobby the first time.

 

[Norseman]

This is where the available information regarding evacuations differs.


[qimg]http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj515/Miragememories/816_john_odermatt_2050081722-12336-1_zps9d06b79f.jpg[/qimg]
"OEM Commissioner John Odermatt, who later says that after the first plane hit the WTC, he left only two staffers there." [Barrett and Collins, 2006, pp. 34, from Grand Illusion]"

"Today is reportedly “going to be a busy day at the OEM,” as staff members have come to work early to prepare for Tripod, a major biological-terrorism training exercise scheduled for September 12 (see http://www.historycommons.org/timel...ete_911_timeline&startpos=4100#a091201tripod2). Their building shakes when the North Tower is hit at 8:46 a.m. OEM Commissioner John Odermatt initially believes a freak accident has occurred involving a ground-to-air missile, but soon after, OEM is informed that a plane hit the North Tower. Immediately, OEM staff members begin to activate their emergency command center, located on the 23rd floor of WTC 7 (see http://www.historycommons.org/timel...300#complete_911_timeline_060899commandcenter). http://transweb.sjsu.edu/MTIportal/research/publications/documents/Sept11.book.htm, PP. 15]"

This may be wrong but I'm allowing for the possibility that Mr. Jennings was unaware that 2 WTC had already been attacked and that he arrived after the full evacuation announcement about the same time as the police who were as yet unsure themselves about what was happening re: evacuation.

Arrival time and first elevator trip to OEM and return to lobby guesstimate of 9:15 - 9:25 am.

The police and security then escort them back to the 23rd floor OEM via a freight elevator.

Second return to the OEM Guesstimate 9:25 - 9:30 am they return to the OEC

Your timeline places Jennings in the OEM EOC at a time when it still was staffed.

From NIST NCSTAR 1-9 page 296:

At approximately 9:32 a.m., after a report of a third aircraft heading into the city, a second order was given in the OEM office to evacuate the WTC 7 facility. A number of personnel stayed in the OEM office and continued to work. Again, at approximately 9:44 a.m., following the news that the Pentagon had been attacked, a Deputy OEM Commissioner verbally ordered the complete evacuation of WTC 7 (Sheirer 2004). This order included the evacuation of the OEM operations center on the 23rd floor.

Supporting accounts from persons inside the OEM EOC at the time:
* WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW EMT RICHARD ZARRILLO
* WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW ABDO NAHMOD
* WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW CAPTAIN JAMES YAKIMOVICH
* Sgt. Richard Bylicki OEM

You have been shown/linked to these accounts before, why are you dismissing them? I note that you have acknowledge Jennings could have arrived without being aware of the second attack. Now it is time make the next step, and modify your time line accordingly.

 

[Miragememories]

9:59 - 10:28 am. Mr. Jennings does not see, but hears numerous explosions while experiencing the surroundings become dark, smoky and increasingly hot.

Sometime after 10:28 am, following the collapse of 1 WTC, Mr. Jennings breaks out two windows, one of which is in the NE corner.

No.

The surroundings did not become dark, smoky, and increasingly hot during the 9:59 - 10:28 am timeframe you post above. Jennings clearly states that when they got back to the 8th floor after experiencing the "explosion", THAT'S when it was dark and very, very hot. This puts the "dark and hot" experience that he describes at your 9:40 - 9:50 am timeframe above.

Mr. Jennings states that "after" he got to the 8th floor, everything got dark.

On a warm early September day with no a/c, it would be expected that the sealed 8th floor would get increasingly hot prior to the collapse of the WTC twin towers.

"After getting to the 8th floor, everything was dark.

It was dark. And it was very very hot. VERY hot.

I asked Mr. Hess to test the phones as I took a fire extinguisher and broke out the windows.

Once I broke out the windows, I could see..outside below me.

I saw er..police cars..on fire..buses on fire..."

"...All this time, I'm hearing all types kinds of explosions.

All this time I'm hearing explosions."

Keep in mind neither Mr. Jennings or Mr. Hess heard any noises at all from the 23rd floor OEM when 2 WTC was supposed to have collapsed.

Sound proofing was not the answer as Mike Catalano in the soundproof Chill box testified to the 9/11 Commission that he even heard the aircraft impacting 1 WTC.

And later, what heard when 2WTC collapsed was almost indescribable.

"The rumbling, the screeching, and the noises — you can’t*imagine. I really can’t describe it. It was nasty. I’m telling you the building*was shaking."

 

[DGM]

You have been shown/linked to these accounts before, why are you dismissing them? I note that you have acknowledge Jennings could have arrived without being aware of the second attack. Now it is time make the next step, and modify your time line accordingly.

Because it is fatal to his belief.

Personally I can't understand why anyone would hold on to an account that makes no sense.

An explosion well before any collapse that no one else reports supports a controlled demolition 8 hours later?

 

[LSSBB]

Because it is fatal to his belief.

Personally I can't understand why anyone would hold on to an account that makes no sense.

An explosion well before any collapse that no one else reports supports a controlled demolition 8 hours later?

That's not just grasping at straws, that's grasping at bendy straws.

 

[DGM]

That's not just grasping at straws, that's grasping at bendy straws.

It really is. They're claiming an explosion in a building that was still partially occupied (during an evacuation) powerful enough to destroy a stairwell, with every reporter in the city focused in the area, and not one noticed?

I wonder how an explosion on the sixth floor could destroy a stairwell and not break a single window.

Explain that MM.

 

[Miragememories]

Supporting accounts from persons inside the OEM EOC at the time:
* WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW EMT RICHARD ZARRILLO
* WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW ABDO NAHMOD
* WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW CAPTAIN JAMES YAKIMOVICH
* Sgt. Richard Bylicki OEM

You have been shown/linked to these accounts before, why are you dismissing them? I note that you have acknowledge Jennings could have arrived without being aware of the second attack. Now it is time make the next step, and modify your time line accordingly.

If someone dumps a pile of reports on my desk and says the info you want is in there..somewhere, I'm not too likely to give this priority.

I suggest you present your case properly or wait until I have the time and patience to dig through that which you deem to be important.

 

[LSSBB]

It really is. They're claiming an explosion in a building that was still partially occupied (during an evacuation) powerful enough to destroy a stairwell, with every reporter in the city focused in the area, and not one noticed?

I wonder how an explosion on the sixth floor could destroy a stairwell and not break a single window.

Explain that MM.

Too much furniture and cube walls in the way.

 

[DGM]

If someone dumps a pile of reports on my desk and says the info you want is in there..somewhere, I'm not too likely to give this priority.

I suggest you present your case properly or wait until I have the time and patience to dig through that which you deem to be important.

You would think 13 years would be enough time. If you need more, we're patient. (all of these are dated 2001)

The real interesting part is MM has quoted from the same data base, proving he was aware of it. A bit of selective bias in his research?

 

[jaydeehess]

Too much furniture and cube walls in the way.

Which of course only works for sound going out from the building. Sound from outside coming in does so with little attenuation.

 

[Dog Town]

If someone dumps a pile of reports on my desk and says the info you want is in there..somewhere, I'm not too likely to give this priority.

 

[beachnut]

Is that the mentality of the pilots who washed out of pilot training used? Hey, what is this pile of tech orders, flying regulations, navigation, weather, piles and piles of books...

"i will not give that pile priority"

Sheds some light on why 911 truth cult members can't get past the thermite, " not too likely to give this priority".

 

[GlennB]

nm

 

[GlennB]

If someone dumps a pile of reports on my desk and says the info you want is in there..somewhere, I'm not too likely to give this priority.

I suggest you present your case properly or wait until I have the time and patience to dig through that which you deem to be important.

We discussed this over at LCF in 2008. You are perfectly well aware of the story of Zarrillo and Nahmod, who witnessed the WTC2 impact even before arriving at the OEM.

 

[carlitos]

The thing about telling the truth is that it's easy to keep your story straight.

 

[GlennB]

The thing about telling the truth is that it's easy to keep your story straight.

And, as Norseman suggests, a few weeks back MM responded directly to a post which briefly described the Zylicki, Zarrillo and Nahmot accounts.

Here