'What about building 7'?

[Miragememories]

This is where the available information regarding evacuations differs.

"OEM Commissioner John Odermatt, who later says that after the first plane hit the WTC, he left only *two staffers there." [Barrett and Collins, 2006, pp. 34, from Grand Illusion]"

*He is likely referring to Richard Zarrillo and Abdo Nahmod.

"Today is reportedly “going to be a busy day at the OEM,” as staff members have come to work early to prepare for Tripod, a major biological-terrorism training exercise scheduled for September 12 (see http://www.historycommons.org/timel...ete_911_timeline&startpos=4100#a091201tripod2). Their building shakes when the North Tower is hit at 8:46 a.m. OEM Commissioner John Odermatt initially believes a freak accident has occurred involving a ground-to-air missile, but soon after, OEM is informed that a plane hit the North Tower. Immediately, OEM staff members begin to activate their emergency command center, located on the 23rd floor of WTC 7 (see http://www.historycommons.org/timel...300#complete_911_timeline_060899commandcenter). http://transweb.sjsu.edu/MTIportal/research/publications/documents/Sept11.book.htm, PP. 15]"

Your timeline places Jennings in the OEM EOC at a time when it still was staffed.

You have been shown/linked to these accounts before, why are you dismissing them?

I note that you have acknowledge Jennings could have arrived without being aware of the second attack.

Now it is time make the next step, and modify your time line accordingly.

I disagree.

And, since you like to point out apparent dismissals, I notice you've ignored the importance of the fact that neither Mr. Jennings or Mr. Hess heard a sound while they were in the OEM. A time when both the BBC claimed that 2 WTC was collapsing (based on their acceptance of the NIST Report's claim.)

You attempted to show that the the emergency design features for the 23rd floor OEM were such that those inside the OEM would be totally isolated and sound proofed from what might be occurring outside.

When I pointed out that Mike Catalano, the chief building engineer for 7 WTC was able to hear the far less dramatic 1 WTC plane crash, from inside the soundproof Chill box, you ignored this contradiction of your chosen belief.

And than of course there is your bias regarding what represents a broken window...

"I’m not sure of the exact time, but I believe as we were coming over the Brooklyn Bridge was when the second plane hit the second tower. [9:02 am] We parked — I want to say it’s on like Broadway right off of Vesey Street, between Vesey and Barclay. Captain Nahmod and I started heading down Vesey Street towards where we thought the command post would be. At that time we had received a page per Chief Peruggia to go into OEM at No. 7 World Trade and activate our post in OEM.

Abdo and I went into No. 7, activated OEM, placed calls to EMS Citywide, RCC, to tell them we were there and we were activated. Maybe five, ten minutes, not even ten minutes later, a rep from OEM came into the main room and said we need to evacuate the building; there’s a third plane inbound. That was the only thing I really heard because I said, Abdo, we’ve got to go, and we made it down to the lobby of the building, street level, met up with Chief Peruggia in the lobby of the building."

Zarrillo is unsure of his times but let us assume as he said, that he was on the Brooklyn Bridge at 9:02 and was in emergency response mode.

He rapidly proceeds to a location (uncertain) near 7 WTC, and is rapidly proceeding towards 7 WTC with Captain Abdo Nahmod, having been paged by Chief Peruggia to go and man the OEM on the 23rd floor.

Maybe 5, but less than 10 minutes after their arrival at the 23rd floor OEM, they are directly ordered to immediately evacuate the OEM because of a 3rd incoming plane threat. They quickly depart and rejoin with Chief Peruggia somewhere in the 7 WTC lobby.

For Richard Zarrillo to have missed an encounter with Mr. Jennings, and allowing for guesstimate inaccuracies, they could have departed the OEM around 9:20 am or earlier.

This gave Richard Zarrillo, who was already in emergency status, 18 minutes or less to rush from the Brooklyn Bridge, park near 7 WTC, get to the OEM and after 5 minutes or so hastily depart.

My guesstimate for the first arrival of Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess at the OEM was approximately 9:20 am but that time is a guesstimate.

When they arrived, they observed the signs of a hasty departure which fits with an almost close encounter with the last occupiers of the OEM (Zarrillo and Nahmod).

Note: Another conceivable hiccup (and I haven't done any analysis on this) in their relative timelines, is that Zarrillo and Nahmod could have arrived after Jennings and Hess had already departed.

 

[Africanus]

Zarrillo is unsure of his times but let us assume as he said, that he was on the Brooklyn Bridge at 9:02 and was in emergency response mode.

His claim is corroborated by James Drury:

My plan was merely to drop my things off in my office and then head over there, but there were two EMS individuals in the lobby when I opened the door of the garage lobby and they were literally begging me to give them a ride over to the World Trade Center. They were Captain Abdo Narmod and EMT Richard Zarillo. My car is not equipped with a siren, but it does have dashboard lights, so we headed over the Brooklyn Bridge, where we could see both towers now on fire.

He rapidly proceeds to a location (uncertain) near 7 WTC, and is rapidly proceeding towards 7 WTC with Captain Abdo Nahmod, having been paged by Chief Peruggia to go and man the OEM on the 23rd floor.

There is another interesting detail, Mr. Drury said in his interview:

I got off the bridge and took Chambers across. At that point you could notice mass panic and hysteria. People were running everywhere across the street.

It seems that they could not proceed to WTC 7 quickly.

This gave Richard Zarrillo, who was already in emergency status, 18 minutes or less to rush from the Brooklyn Bridge, park near 7 WTC, get to the OEM and after 5 minutes or so hastily depart.

Refuted by Mr. Drury's testimony.

Note: Another conceivable hiccup (and I haven't done any analysis on this) in their relative timelines, is that Zarrillo and Nahmod could have arrived after Jennings and Hess had already departed.

No, the OEM was still staffed as Nahmod and Zarrillo arrived:

Abdo Nahmod:

MOMENTS THEREAFTER WE WERE ADVISED BY THE STAFF AT OEM THAT WE WERE TO VACATE THE BUILDINQ THAT THEY BELIEVED THERE WAS ANOTHER POSSIBLE PLANE ON ITS WAY AND PROCEEDED DOWN THE STAIRWELL OF WORLD TRADE ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE GROUND FLOOR

Richard Zarrillo:

Maybe five, ten minutes, not even ten minutes later, a rep from OEM came into the main room and said we need to evacuate the building;

 

[swright777]

The thing about telling the truth is that it's easy to keep your story straight.

I don't think that's a big concern for some.

 

[NoahFence]

The thing about telling the truth is that it's easy to keep your story straight.

This.

 

[GlennB]

MM's torturing of well-established and reliable accounts, reason, and plain logic, has one purpose only - to defend the idea that Jennings and Hess experienced the effects of explosives down by level 6.

Man, this is one small element (the timing of J+H's experiences) of one part (the CD of WTC7) of a huge black op (9/11) by his token. And this is a man whose most recent stance is that WTC7 was 'supposed' to have collapsed in the immediate aftermath of the WTC1 collapse, yet who has never been able to explain how the perps might have explained away the spontaneous collapse of such a massive building with no obvious cause.

Is there any way to commit - on pain of dire financial penalty - to avoiding debate with such sick thinking? I seem to lack the emotional maturity to just walk away from it

 

[Miragememories]

Zarrillo is unsure of his times but let us assume as he said, that he was on the Brooklyn Bridge at 9:02 and was in emergency response mode.

His claim is corroborated by James Drury.

"My plan was merely to drop my things off in my office and then head over there, but there were two EMS individuals in the lobby when I opened the door of the garage lobby and they were literally begging me to give them a ride over to the World Trade Center. They were Captain Abdo Narmod and EMT Richard Zarillo.
My car is not equipped with a siren, but it does have dashboard lights, so we headed over the Brooklyn Bridge, where we could see both towers now on fire[9:02 am]...I got off the bridge and took Chambers across...We made the left on Broadway and I parked...The Captain and the EMT [Nahmod and Zarrillo] got out of the car immediately and started running on foot .."

"Captain Nahmod and I started heading down Vesey Street towards where we thought the command post would be. At that time we had received a page per Chief Peruggia to go into OEM at No. 7 World Trade and activate our post in OEM.

Abdo and I went into No. 7, activated OEM, placed calls to EMS Citywide, RCC, to tell them we were there and we were activated. Maybe five, ten minutes, not even ten minutes later, a rep from OEM came into the main room and said we need to evacuate the building; there’s a third plane inbound. That was the only thing I really heard because I said, Abdo, we’ve got to go, and we made it down to the lobby of the building, street level, met up with Chief Peruggia in the lobby of the building."

I never said Richard Zarrillo's account was untrue, just that he was uncertain of his times.

For Richard Zarrillo to have missed an encounter with Mr. Jennings, and allowing for guesstimate inaccuracies, they could have departed the OEM around 9:20 am or earlier.

This gave Richard Zarrillo, who was already in emergency status, 18 minutes or less to rush from the Brooklyn Bridge, park near 7 WTC, get to the OEM and after 5 minutes or so hastily depart.

My guesstimate for the first arrival of Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess at the OEM was approximately 9:20 am but that time is a guesstimate.

When they arrived, they observed the signs of a hasty departure which fits with an almost close encounter with the last occupiers of the OEM (Zarrillo and Nahmod).

Refuted by Mr. Drury's testimony.

Not refuted.

They were on the bridge when they noted 2nd crash at 9:02.

Mr. Drury made a left turn onto Broadway and parked.

Zarrillo and Nahmod "started running" having been paged to report to the OEM at 7 WTC.

They arrived at the OEM and were told after 5 minutes to immediately evacuate.

Note: Another conceivable hiccup (and I haven't done any analysis on this) in their relative timelines, is that Zarrillo and Nahmod could have arrived after Jennings and Hess had already departed.

No, the OEM was still staffed as Nahmod and Zarrillo arrived:

"..a rep from OEM came into the main room and said we need to evacuate the building; there’s a third plane inbound."

ONE person arrived from somewhere to tell them to evacuate.

That in no way means "the OEM was still staffed when they arrived"!

Or are you deliberately ignoring;

This is where the available information regarding evacuations differs.

"OEM Commissioner John Odermatt, who later says that after the first plane hit the WTC, he left only *two staffers there." [Barrett and Collins, 2006, pp. 34, from Grand Illusion]"

*He is likely referring to Richard Zarrillo and Abdo Nahmod.

With guesstimates, there is room for adjustments to both the Zarrillo and Jenning's timelines.

As I noted, it is even possible that Mr. Jennings departed before Richard Zarrillo arrived.

 

[GlennB]

"OEM Commissioner John Odermatt, who later says that after the first plane hit the WTC, he left only *two staffers there." [Barrett and Collins, 2006, pp. 34, from Grand Illusion]"

*He is likely referring to Richard Zarrillo and Abdo Nahmod.

They were not even close to the OEM when WTC1 was hit. Not even on the way to WTC7.

Meanwhile, "staffer" = permanent member of staff. Zarrillo, Nahmod, Jennings and Hess were not "staffers", they worked for other agencies but were asked to attend the OEM that day as part of the emergency management program.

Zarrillo testimony: "I'm an EMT working in fire operations as a special event coordinator" .....
Chief Peruggia: "you and Abdo, Captain Nahmod, need to head into the city to be part of the command, runners or administratively, whatever we can do to help out."

He was at his normal workplace desk when WTC1 was hit.

What is going through your head? You're making stuff up on the fly after all these years of *knowing* all this already? Dear FSM.

 

[DGM]

I disagree.

And, since you like to point out apparent dismissals, I notice you've ignored the importance of the fact that neither Mr. Jennings or Mr. Hess heard a sound while they were in the OEM. A time when both the BBC claimed that 2 WTC was collapsing (based on their acceptance of the NIST Report's claim.)

You have an inconsistency in your thinking. You claim explosives going off in the building would not be heard because the building was sealed, yet they should have heard the collapse.

 

[Africanus]

I never said Richard Zarrillo's account was untrue, just that he was uncertain of his times.

I did not accuse you of that, I just said, that Zarrillo's claim is corroborated by Drury and therefore it is very likely that his claim is true.

Not refuted.

They were on the bridge when they noted 2nd crash at 9:02.

Mr. Drury made a left turn onto Broadway and parked.

Zarrillo and Nahmod "started running" having been paged to report to the OEM at 7 WTC.

They arrived at the OEM and were told after 5 minutes to immediately evacuate.

You are ignoring that Drury said, that people were on the street. Under that circumstances it will take some time until they get to the scene.

ONE person arrived from somewhere to tell them to evacuate.

That in no way means "the OEM was still staffed when they arrived"!

Even if there is only one person from the OEM staff in the OEM, it is still staffed.

Or are you deliberately ignoring;

No, I'm not ignoring this statement, I answered it a few pages ago. Odermatt is not referring to Nahmod and/or Zarrillo, as both do not belong to the OEM staff. It is very very very likely that one of the staffers was Sgt. Bylicki:

I was preparing paperwork and was walking toward the window facing the towers when I heard a loud, missile type noise and looked up and saw the explosion / fireball-in the North tower.. I took a second to compose myself and went toward the executive offices of 1st Deputy Director John
Odermatt who heard the explosion and was attempting to find out what had happened, we met in the hallway and I directed him back to my work area for the best view of the incident.
Director Odermatt quickly debriefed me and instructed me to open the Emergency Operations Center (EOC) for a fully staffed operation, which I did.

As I noted, it is even possible that Mr. Jennings departed before Richard Zarrillo arrived.

No, it is not possible, your hypothesis doesn't make sense at all and it is contradicted by Nahmod's and Zarrillo's testimony.

 

[Miragememories]

"MM's torturing of well-established and reliable accounts, reason, and plain logic, has one purpose only - to defend the idea that Jennings and Hess experienced the effects of explosives down by level 6..."

Since you are convinced that I am performing a "torturing of well-established and reliable accounts, reason, and plain logic" Glenn, maybe you can shed some light on this issue regarding the collapse of 2 WTC.

Where were Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess when 2 WTC collapsed?

"Two New York City employees had gone to the OEM Center on the 23rd floor and found no one there. [Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess]

As they went to get into an elevator to go downstairs, the lights inside WTC 7 flickered as WTC 2 collapsed.

At that point, the elevator they were attempting to catch no longer worked, so they started down the staircase.

When they got to the 6th floor, WTC 1 collapsed, the lights went out in the staircase, the sprinklers (at an unspecified location) came on briefly, and the staircase filled with smoke and debris.

The two men went back to the 8th floor, broke out two windows, and called for help."

This is how Mr. Jennings described the period leading up to when the NIST states 2 WTC was collapsing:

"Then Security and the Police took us to the freight elevators where they took us back up and we did get in.

Upon arriving into the OEM EOC,..we notice that..everybody was gone.

I saw coffee that was on the desk. Still. The smoke was still coming off the coffee.

I saw..I saw er half eaten sandwiches.

And..only me and Mr. Hess was up there.

After I called several individuals, one individual told me that, um "to leave, and leave right away."

Mr. Hess came running back in.

He said "we're the only ones up here, we gotta get out of here."

He found the stairwell.

So we went to the stairwell and we're going down the stairs..."

Nothing out of the ordinary other than an obviously hurried evacuation of the OEM.

Supposedly, according to the NIST record, Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess were outside of the sanctuary of the OEM and at the elevators when 2 WTC collapsed.

Yet neither reported hearing anything unusual or feeling the slightest building movement.

So what were other building occupants in 7 WTC experiencing as the events outside unfolded?

Mike Catalano, the chief engineer for Salomon Smith Barney at 7 World Trade Center was in the soundproof Chill room when the first aircraft struck 1 WTC.

He told the 9/11 Commission that he heard the BOOM.

When the 2nd aircraft hit 2 WTC at 9:02, he was inside 7 WTC heading for the elevators:

"As we’re going to the elevators, the second one hit. We’re 47 floors up and our building is less than 100 yards away. When that second plane hit, we got knocked around and we got scared.

When the second plane hit the south tower, we were heading to the elevators to go down. I said, “No elevators.” We used the staircase. We had our uniforms on and our radios and our badges. The staircase was packed."

Things really got intense when 2 WTC collapses:

"Then everything went pitch black.

The rumbling, the screeching, and the noises — you can’t imagine.

I really can’t describe it.

It was nasty.

I’m telling you the building was shaking."

Somehow, standing by the elevator on the 23rd floor of 7 WTC, Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess failed to notice this, or did not think it significant enough to mention.

I really find it inconceivable that Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess were on the 23rd floor when 2 WTC collapsed, and that 30 minutes later, following a hurried descent, they had only reached the 6th floor stairwell, when supposedly, according to the NIST, 1 WTC then collapsed.

How Glenn, is my doubting that convenient NIST account, a torturing of "well-established and reliable accounts, reason, and plain logic?

 

[Miragememories]

Mr. Drury made a left turn onto Broadway and parked.

Zarrillo and Nahmod "started running" having been paged to report to the OEM at 7 WTC.

They arrived at the OEM and were told after 5 minutes to immediately evacuate.

You are ignoring that Drury said, that people were on the street. Under that circumstances it will take some time until they get to the scene.

In the News videos I have watched, prior to the collapses, the evacuating crowds were not of such density that Zarrillo and Nahmod could not run as reported.

You are grasping at straws.

ONE person arrived from somewhere to tell them to evacuate.

That in no way means "the OEM was still staffed when they arrived"!

Even if there is only one person from the OEM staff in the OEM, it is still staffed.

Now that is truly pathetic.

"..a rep from OEM came into the main room and said we need to evacuate the building; there’s a third plane inbound."

There is no evidence to suggest that that arriving OEM rep was there all along following the full OEM evacuation.

ONE person arrived from somewhere to tell them to evacuate.

That in no way means "the OEM was still staffed when they arrived"!

Or are you deliberately ignoring;

This is where the available information regarding evacuations differs.

"OEM Commissioner John Odermatt, who later says that after the first plane hit the WTC, he left only *two staffers there." [Barrett and Collins, 2006, pp. 34, from Grand Illusion]"

*He is likely referring to Richard Zarrillo and Abdo Nahmod.

No, I'm not ignoring this statement, I answered it a few pages ago. Odermatt is not referring to Nahmod and/or Zarrillo, as both do not belong to the OEM staff. It is very very very likely that one of the staffers was Sgt. Bylicki:

"Director Odermatt quickly debriefed me and instructed me to open the Emergency Operations Center (EOC) for a fully staffed operation, which I did. While in the EOC I assisted the Watch Command in handling an enormous influx of telephone calls, many for top City officials, During this time I observed the second plane hit the South tower via live video feed. I realized at this time these acts were intentional. Immediately following the second attack 7 WTC lost primary power and switched to auxiliary generators.The fire alarm enunciator panel lit up indicating there was no water pressure for fire suppression in the building. I was soon on the phone with the FAA who informed me that at least 1 other plane was uaccounted for and possibly heading for NYC. I informed Deputy Director and FDNY Captain Rotanz who was the highest-ranking OEM official in the building at the time. Captain Rotanz surmised that 7 WTC was potentially the next target and subsequently ordered an evacuation of all OEM and building employees. The OEM staffs assembled in the lobby of 7 WTC, and were awaiting instructions via radio."

This suggests to me that everyone left the OEM at this time and prior to the arrival of Richard Zarrillo and Abdo Nahmod who were just crossing the Brooklyn Bridge.

 

[DGM]

You are ignoring that Drury said, that people were on the street. Under that circumstances it will take some time until they get to the scene.

Mr. Drury made a left turn onto Broadway and parked.

Zarrillo and Nahmod "started running" having been paged to report to the OEM at 7 WTC.

They arrived at the OEM and were told after 5 minutes to immediately evacuate.

That's like 10 blocks!

Were they super sprinters? This would take a half an hour on a good day.

 

[Miragememories]

That's like 10 blocks!

Were they super sprinters? This would take a half an hour on a good day.

2 blocks.

 

[DGM]

In the News videos I have watched, prior to the collapses, the evacuating crowds were not of such density that Zarrillo and Nahmod could not run as reported.

You are grasping at straws.

An hour prior to the collapse? You're the one grasping for straws.

I've been to that area many times, if they got there before 9:30 it would be a feat. You got them in and out in seconds.

I don't expect you to respond. I'm just quoting the obvious so others don't have to pay close attention to your inconsistencies.

 

[DGM]

2 blocks.

No. Where do you think they parked? At best it's 6 blocks. (I know the area). At 9:03 do you really think the area was clear?

 

[DGM]

MM:

At 9:03 most of the fire department was just getting there and traffic was near gridlock. No way in hell was the area clear to run around.

Get the big picture.

 

[Dog Town]

​

I never said Richard Zarrillo's account was untrue, just that he was uncertain of his times.

WOW! Sound familiar?

 

[Africanus]

In the News videos I have watched, prior to the collapses, the evacuating crowds were not of such density that Zarrillo and Nahmod could not run as reported.

I did not write of Zarrillo and Nahmod running to WTC 7, I wrote about Drury driving from Brooklyn Bridge towards the World Trade Center Site. Here the path he took:

so we headed over the Brooklyn Bridge, where we could see both towers now on fire. I got off the bridge and took Chambers across. At that point you could notice mass panic and hysteria. People were running everywhere across the street. We made the left on Broadway and I parked the Department vehicle that I was driving in front of Saint Pauls Chapel at Park Row on Broadway, right in front.

So the route was Brooklyn Brigde - Chambers Street - Broadway - St. Paul's Chapel and it was at Chambers Street, where he experienced the "mass panic and hysteria".

You are grasping at straws.

No, you are the one who is grasping at straw. And you not only grasp at straw, you constantly misrepresent the arguments of other discussers and of responders accounts, e.g.:

Mr. Drury made a left turn onto Broadway and parked.

Zarrillo and Nahmod "started running" having been paged to report to the OEM at 7 WTC.

Mr. Drury turned left into Broadway and drove to St. Paul's Chapel, where he parked the car. At that point Zarrillo and Nahmod left the car and searched for the EMS command post:

We made the left on Broadway and I parked the Department vehicle that I was driving in front of Saint Pauls Chapel at Park Row on Broadway, right in front.
The Captain and the EMT got out of the car immediately and started running on foot to find the EMS command post.

Now that is truly pathetic.

Correct, you are very pathetic.

There is no evidence to suggest that that arriving OEM rep was there all along following the full OEM evacuation.

Oh yes, there is evidence, because there are other testimonies that corroborate my conclusion, e.g. the quote from Bylicki's account you referenced.

This suggests to me that everyone left the OEM at this time and prior to the arrival of Richard Zarrillo and Abdo Nahmod who were just crossing the Brooklyn Bridge.

We know the time when Rotanz gave the evacuation order from other testimonies: It was 9:30 am.

 

[GlennB]

Mr. Drury turned left into Broadway and drove to St. Paul's Chapel, where he parked the car. At that point Zarrillo and Nahmod left the car and searched for the EMS command post:

They did well to get to the OEM as early as ~9:30.

 

[fitzgibbon]

Norseman, your lack of objectivity is beginning to show.

The irony of this statement beggars belief

Fitz