YOUR solution to the Mexico Crisis

[BenBurch]

... Who/where on Earth are you going to bomb? Where do you think these guys are entrenched? Is some cave in the hills?

They are in neighborhoods full of thousands of other people.

It makes about as much sense as trying to take out Capone by having General Billy Mitchell bomb Chicago with a flight of Martin NBS-1's.

Results would be the same too.

Might or might not get Capone. Assured that you will kill hundreds of innocents.

 

[rustypouch]

rusty pouch: I don't like freedom? Interesting comment, but you will have to forgive me I don't quite understand what you mean. After all I am just a dumbstreet cop and really do not know much of anything.

Well, you seem to take the position that limiting what people can do with their own bodies is a good thing. This would be restricting freedom.

I will elaborate my position a bit. First, I am working with a few assumptions:

-demand for drugs will always exist.
-gangs and corporations want to make money. Corporations do this (mostly) within the law
-part of the reason drug prices are so high is because they are illegal, and the high risks that run with getting caught. Danger pay, so to speak.
-most drugs don't cost much to produce

Now if they were made legal and you could get drugs at the drug store next to the liquor store, this would have effects. They would become more widely available, and the surcharge or 'danger pay' because of the illegality would be gone. This means prices would drop.

Now if you wanted something, why would you get it from some shifty gangster when you could get it cheaper, legally, and be assured of quality, somewhere else?

The profit margins for the gangs would erode. With the profits, there is no reason for them to stay in the game. This would eliminate the need for many drug related crimes.

Of course, this would not eliminate all gangs, or crime, or examples such as the one you mentioned. I don't know if that is fully possible.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Move Texas south.

 

[BenBurch]

Move Texas south.

All the way to Tierra Del Fuego?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It's time to decriminalize drugs and spend the billions we spend on prisons and law enforcement on keeping people from becoming addicts. A certain percentage of the population will have trouble with drugs just like some people have trouble with alcohol. But one doesn't see EVERYONE becoming alcoholics. You don't see whole populations in countries that have decriminalized drugs becoming addicts. We have examples in other countries that reveal what will likely happen. Surely the murder of thousands of people in Mexico is not a better outcome than decriminalized drugs in the US.

For that matter, the drug trade is funding the Taliban and other insurgents. Think of the possibility of collapsing the funding for all those groups!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BenBurch]

I might be cold-hearted, but people bent on self destruction will find a means to do it whether it be the needle or the bottle.

We're not going to save them by treating them like children and banning drugs.

Proof of this is what you see right now. Nixon declared WAR ON DRUGS in 1972. It's 38 years, and billions of dollars later, and drugs are still with us. And the violence associated with that trade grows by the minute.

 

[Frank Newgent]

Perhaps more locked vehicles?

Rodriguez says people in the mob recognized the two alleged kidnappers, 17-year-old boys who grew up in Ascension. "We don't know why they chose to get mixed up in crime," he says.

Federal police eventually took custody of the two young men and drove them to the town's small military base.

Residents say at least 1,000 people then caught up with them at the base and broke through the gates. The mob got ahold of the suspected kidnappers and beat them a second time.

The crowd then held them for seven hours, locked in a hot vehicle where they eventually died.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130079477

 

[bit_pattern]

 

[Rollo9]

1) You apparently don't know what an ad hominem is.
2) I do know they would be dirt cheap. It is a simple matter of economics. They are extremely cheap to make and market forces would drive the prices down.
3) Are you honestly so dumb to think that if junkies could buy a gram of heroin for $5 that this would not have an effect on crimes committed by junkies to get money for their fixes?

You crack me up!!! You tell me I don't know what an ad hominem is and then you personally insult me again.

What makes you think a junkie would even have $5 for a gram of heroin? Cripes why do you think some of them commit crimes; they don't have jobs and have no source of income? Do some of these junkies commit crimes to get money so they can get high or is it because they are high and know they need more drugs to keep the high going? What makes you think just because drugs are cheap to make they would be? When is the last time you went to a pharmacy? Some of the generic drugs are cheap but many are very expensive. You think the comapnies that make the drugs or grow the MJ are going to sell it cheap? That is a very naive way of thinking. They would not have to sell cheap drugs to junkies because as it has already been proven time and time again, junkies will pay any price to get high.

Even if the drugs were cheap many junkies would still be dumping every penny they had just to buy the drugs and cheap drugs means they can buy more than they could before.

 

[Rollo9]

That's specifically the rationale you repeatedly give for keeping drugs illegal- "druggies" commit crimes, so drugs should be illegal.

Got it. I understand your point. But, what I am trying to state is there are so many complications that result from drug abuse that makes it a very dangerous proposition to legalize all drugs.

 

[GlennB]

....
They would not have to sell cheap drugs to junkies because as it has already been proven time and time again, junkies will pay any price to get high.

Even if the drugs were cheap many junkies would still be dumping every penny they had just to buy the drugs and cheap drugs means they can buy more than they could before.

That doesn't make sense. I (being a nicotine addict) would not smoke more if cigarettes were dirt cheap. Even if I were so inclined I'd only be hurting myself. Meanwhile, if I were committing crimes to fund my addiction then I'd be committing fewer crimes if tobacco were cheaper.

From Mexican cartel wars to individual muggings, drug crime is driven by illegality and high prices. Meanwhile many of the individual health problems associated with drugs are down to the underworld culture and filthy lifestyle that is also driven by illegality and poverty. It's perfectly possible for a wealthy heroin addict to live a normal life and not even be identifiable as an addict.

 

[fishbob]

For those who stated legalize drugs, HELL NO!!!! I deal with drug addicts on a daily basis and that would only worsen more problems than I can name in this post. Legalizing drugs would not solve the problem.

Anybody that wants drugs now has no problem getting them.
How could legalization make things any worse?

 

[fishbob]

Re: legalizing all drugs..

Would you really want heroin and crack in your backyard? Have you seen what meth does to a normal healthy person?

Heroin and crack are already in your back yard. And meth.

 

[Sledge]

Serious?

Somewhat. There's certainly a logic to the argument, and the US already has the death penalty in some states, so why not?

 

[Rollo9]

That doesn't make sense. I (being a nicotine addict) would not smoke more if cigarettes were dirt cheap. Even if I were so inclined I'd only be hurting myself. Meanwhile, if I were committing crimes to fund my addiction then I'd be committing fewer crimes if tobacco were cheaper.

From Mexican cartel wars to individual muggings, drug crime is driven by illegality and high prices. Meanwhile many of the individual health problems associated with drugs are down to the underworld culture and filthy lifestyle that is also driven by illegality and poverty. It's perfectly possible for a wealthy heroin addict to live a normal life and not even be identifiable as an addict.

I have not experienced many nicotine addicts who would commit crimes to support their smoking habit, so that is not a good comparison. I have met crabby nicotine addicts when they run out of cigarettes. Nicotine does not run a persn's body into the ground as rapidly as meth or heroin. A pack of cigarettes are damn expensive now and cartons are out of this world, but I am not arresting smokers who are trying to support their habit because they are dumping evey penny they have to support their habit. As a smoker you still think rationally and you are able to keep a perspective on right and wrong and would not go to any lenghts to get the "money" to buy your smokes. Legal or illegal many junkies would still be in the same situation due to the lifestyle that surrounds drug addiction. The highly addictive nature and affects of some hardcore drugs drive junkies to do the things they do.

Yes, some wealthy heroin/meth/cocaine....(fill in the blank) can lead a nirmal life. I was not stating "all" addicts, but many cannot.

 

[Rollo9]

Well, you seem to take the position that limiting what people can do with their own bodies is a good thing. This would be restricting freedom.

I will elaborate my position a bit. First, I am working with a few assumptions:

-demand for drugs will always exist.
-gangs and corporations want to make money. Corporations do this (mostly) within the law
-part of the reason drug prices are so high is because they are illegal, and the high risks that run with getting caught. Danger pay, so to speak.
-most drugs don't cost much to produce

Now if they were made legal and you could get drugs at the drug store next to the liquor store, this would have effects. They would become more widely available, and the surcharge or 'danger pay' because of the illegality would be gone. This means prices would drop.

Now if you wanted something, why would you get it from some shifty gangster when you could get it cheaper, legally, and be assured of quality, somewhere else?

The profit margins for the gangs would erode. With the profits, there is no reason for them to stay in the game. This would eliminate the need for many drug related crimes.

Of course, this would not eliminate all gangs, or crime, or examples such as the one you mentioned. I don't know if that is fully possible.

I am ot against personal freedom to do what you want to your own body. If I implied that it was unintentional and I don't recall doing so.

My main points are the baggage that comes with an addicts life that affects those around them. All the cals for service I have dealt with over the years have made me extremely intolerant to junkies and if there was a simple solution to the problem (there is not) I would be all for it.

The biggest argument I hear is that legalizing drugs would stop the drug war. Maybe but maybe not.

My main point I raised earlier and I will sound redundant is the ******** that surrounds a junkie's life. Cheap drugs or not good quality or not a meth addict or heroin addict or somebody using PCP is still going to hurt a family memeber, friend or innocent. (Not all addicts) There are too many complications just from drug use itself that cause problems for others. Fill your vains full of crap, I don't care, but I cannot abide having someone high on PCP having the right to go into the public while they are high on that crap. Ten years ago I was in a fight for my life with somebody high on PCP and if it wasn't for an innocent bystander I would not be here to debate and discuss this issue. Anyway I am babbling and it is late.

 

[GlennB]

I have not experienced many nicotine addicts who would commit crimes to support their smoking habit, so that is not a good comparison. I have met crabby nicotine addicts when they run out of cigarettes. Nicotine does not run a persn's body into the ground as rapidly as meth or heroin. A pack of cigarettes are damn expensive now and cartons are out of this world, but I am not arresting smokers who are trying to support their habit because they are dumping evey penny they have to support their habit. As a smoker you still think rationally and you are able to keep a perspective on right and wrong and would not go to any lenghts to get the "money" to buy your smokes. Legal or illegal many junkies would still be in the same situation due to the lifestyle that surrounds drug addiction. The highly addictive nature and affects of some hardcore drugs drive junkies to do the things they do.

Yes, some wealthy heroin/meth/cocaine....(fill in the blank) can lead a nirmal life. I was not stating "all" addicts, but many cannot.

My bolding.

Without realising it you have just agreed with my whole point. It's the cost of illegal drugs and associated filthy, desperate lifestyle of druggies that is doing the damage. Make it cheap, reliable and controlled and most of those problems go away. There is only so much heroin you can take in a day. Meanwhile the cartels and dealers are shafted.

Meanwhile the 'war on drugs' has failed utterly and will continue to fail. And everybody loses, both druggies and their crime victims.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

First of all you don't know if the drugs would be dirt cheap you are assuming, but you do not know for sure.

Do we get a lot of legal goods made in third world countries by workers that get 10 cents a day that aren't dirt cheap?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Got it. I understand your point. But, what I am trying to state is there are so many complications that result from drug abuse that makes it a very dangerous proposition to legalize all drugs.

First, legalizing differs from decriminalizing.

And other countries have decriminalized drugs and we can observe the consequences instead of just making up what we think will happen.

In addition, you have to consider the current situation compared to decriminalizing. Which is worse? I'd say the murder rate in Mexico and the funding of insurgents like the Taliban weigh pretty heavily on the side of decriminalizing is the lesser of two evils.

 

[Uncayimmy]

My bolding.

Without realising it you have just agreed with my whole point. It's the cost of illegal drugs and associated filthy, desperate lifestyle of druggies that is doing the damage. Make it cheap, reliable and controlled and most of those problems go away. There is only so much heroin you can take in a day. Meanwhile the cartels and dealers are shafted.

Meanwhile the 'war on drugs' has failed utterly and will continue to fail. And everybody loses, both druggies and their crime victims.

Exactly.

Cocaine is about $1/gram to produce. It's $2/gram in Colombia, $100/gram in the USA and $750/gram in New Zealand. (rough numbers - market fluctuates)

Vicodin can be purchased retail (no insurance) for about 25 cents per pill, and the street price is $1 to $5 per pill.

The markup on meth is apparently about 10 to 20 times the price to produce, and the base price centers on the precursors, which legit drug makers could just as easily have made into meth to start with.

The point is that the prices are ridiculous because of the law. People don't steal (or steal very little) to support their cigarette or alcohol habits (or food) because the stuff is cheap and easy to find. The pharmacist at Walgreens doesn't load up her car with her assistants to do a drive-by shooting at the competing pharmacy down the street either.