With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[kimiko]

The issue wasn't why they were doing this, the issue was whether they recognize that it will lead to more Palestinian children being killed.

My original post was on the issue of why they were doing this. As to the other part, if they really had a long term view of the situation they wouldn't be conducting terror attacks, so probably not.

But it is equal? It seems to me that the Palestinians have it within their power to end the occupation, while Israel does not. You seem to be dodging the issue: were terrorist attacks to cease, would the IDF kill children anyway, on a level comparable to the current one?

I'm not dodging the issue; you seem to want me to agree that the deaths of Palestinian children is entirely the fault of Palestinian terrorists. Unless Palestinians shoot the kids, then the IDF is still responsible for reacting when they know civilians will die. It's a trade-off they are willing to make.

Even if the shooter believed the thrower to constitute a clear and present danger? If the shooter mistook the rock for a grenade, is he still responsible?

Of course. Whoever shot the other person is always partly responsible, because they took action. Even if you kill in self-defense, you are responsible for pulling the trigger. I'm not talking about moral responsibility; that will vary by circumstance.

I can't think of any simple way of explaining what I consider "score" to mean. The closest I can think of is "moral high ground". Does the moral high ground automatically go to whatever side has the highest body count? The score isn't just the raw numbers; it's also about how justified the killings were. And of course, Palestinians are going to think of the score differently from Israelis.

I was using the term score in a strict numerical sense. I'm not in a position to make judgements about moral high ground without specifics on different .

I admit I am biased, but I am open to other explanations. For instance, perhaps women in that culture are less likely to be in public, and most of the shootings happen in public, so men are disproportionately killed. If you can find evidence for that, that would be an argument to advance.

I would lean towards males having to prove their masculinity in physical confrontation. It's an interesting topic either way.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Doesn't this support the idea that Palestinians are responsible for their own deaths, and aren't really "noncombatants".

Only if boys with rocks can be considered akin to an armed military. I think "combatants" would probably be better reserved to organized violent groups, and only applied to young people when they take on armed activities like shootings and bombings. That could indicate why many teenaged Palestinians die whenever statistics don't differentiate between combatants and civilians.

Why should he be restricted to this thread? Isn't it valid to say that a post in this thread can be interpreted in a certain way, and to make use of one's general life experiences to evaluate how accurate that interpretation is? Someone in another thread kept going on about how terrorism was "inevitable" and it is the existence of Israel rather than terrorists that are to blame for it. Isn't that rather similar to what Skeptic is saying?

He opened his post referencing phrases used specifically in this thread and drawing his conclusions from those, so yes, he is restricted to this thread. The conclusion in the first paragraph doesn't follow from the premises. He ascribes motivations for people's arguments instead of addressing the arguments themselves. He is generous with the ad homs, and other fallacies like false analogy, emotive language, etc. And since his post is negative in characterization, the effect is like a push-poll. Statements and questions made make no attempt to arrive at valid conclusions, and convey a bias to the readers. It isnt equivalent to the other poster you mention becuase that argument pertains to the subject of the thread, not fellow posters.

And because I know someone will drag this out, please think on this before engaging in character assasination.

It is important to point out that empathy does not necessarily imply sympathy. To empathize is "to understand and to share the feelings of another," without necessarily having feelings of pity or sorrow for their misfortunes, agreeing with their sentiment or opinions, or having a favorable attitude toward them- the feelings that define sympathy. It is a kind of vicarious introspection. Although empathizing with a religious-extremist killer is difficult, I discover that it can be learned. It is possible to understand and vicariously share the feelings that give rise to terrorism-if only briefly- and still maintain that the terrorist's actions are immoral, or even evil.

Jessica Stern-Terror in the Name of God; Why Religious Militants Kill

Skeptics shouldn't have to make a disclaimer to avoid being negatively characterized on the basis of an argument, because we all know what ad homs are and should be avoiding them. For that, there's Flame War.

 

[zenith-nadir]

It seems to me that the Palestinians have it within their power to end the occupation, while Israel does not.

The Palestinians have had several opportunities since September 1993 to end the occupation. They are in order; Oslo 1, The agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area, The agreement on the Preparatory Transfer of Powers and Responsibilities, The Interim Agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, The Wye River Plantation Agreement, The Sharm el Sheikh Agreement, The Palestinian-Israeli Security Implementation Work Plan (Tenet Plan) and The Performance-Based Road Map to a Permanent Two-State Solution.

Every single one of these treaties have a common theme. Stop the islamist paramilitary groups who operate in the West Bank and Gaza from attacking Israel. It has been over ten years of endless promises by Arafat - and now Abbas - that the islamist paramilitary groups will stop operating in the West Bank and Gaza.

After ten years of promises we now know beyond a reasonable doubt that the Palestinain Authority will not stop the islamist paramilitary groups operating in the West Bank and Gaza. Therefore Israel has the obligation to protect it's citizens from the islamist paramilitary groups operating in the West Bank and Gaza.

Originally posted by kimiko
Of course I know speculation isn't evidence. I'm making a rational argument, not a proof. That is the only sensical reason I can think of for targetting schoolchildren. If someone else can think of a more plausible one, I'd revise my view.

How about the real one kimiko? That the ideology of these islamist paramilitary groups involves the extermination of Israel and all jews in "Palestine". You can easy visit the website of Hamas, they tell you themselves. Hell, they've said it publicly a hundred times.

You cannot impose your rationale onto these jihadists and then extrapolate why you think they might be shooting anti-tank rockets at buses full of settler schoolkids. These people shoot at buses full of kids or blow up Israeli buses, restaurants, malls, discos, pool halls, holiday resorts, markets, bus stops, seders, pizzarias, hotels, stores because they are ideological nut cases, some of whom are bent on martyrdom. And if the Palestinian Authority will not stop these islamist paramilitary groups then unfortunately that obligation falls squarely into the lap of the victims...the Israelis.

Originally posted by kimiko
I'm not dodging the issue; you seem to want me to agree that the deaths of Palestinian children is entirely the fault of Palestinian terrorists. Unless Palestinians shoot the kids, then the IDF is still responsible for reacting when they know civilians will die. It's a trade-off they are willing to make.

Civilians die because the Palestinian Authority allows islamist paramilitary groups to use Palestinian civilians for cover and concealment. Said another way, Palestinian civilians are used as shields by these islamist paramilitary groups. These islamist paramilitary groups hide amongst Palestinian civilians and dress like Palestinian civilians, ergo Palestinian civilians die in clashes between islamist paramilitary groups and the IDF. Since the Palestinian Authority has yet to stop any islamist paramilitary group since 1993, many Palestinian civilians have died as a result.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Case in point:

Palestinian Gunmen Join Police Force - Associated Press - 10/May/05

TULKAREM, West Bank - Hosni Abu Ghreib figures he has a good deal. After four years on the run from Israeli forces, the militant has traded his mask for a Palestinian police uniform and a steady paycheck. To top it off, he still has a gun.

His transformation was made possible by the jobs-for-fugitives program, the Palestinian response to Israeli and U.S. charges that Palestinians have failed to crack down on militants. Palestinians say they are getting militants off the streets without confrontations.

Ya.. by making them Palestinian policemen. But there is more...

The militants want "to give politics a chance," he said, warning they could still return to violence. "Those who say the uprising is over are wrong. We are in a cease-fire, but if the Palestinians don't get their demands, there will be more uprisings," he said.(emphasis mine)

Now is that a Palestinian policeman talking or is that a combatant from an islamist paramilitary group?...I dunno cuz he's dressed like a policeman...Meanwhile in the same article;

In Jenin, a militant stronghold, dozens of Palestinian gunmen and police exchanged fire for a second day Monday after a local militant leader said police shot him in the leg without provocation.

Are those Palestinian policeman firing at Palestinian gunmen in Jenin or are those former islamist paramilitary members - now dressed like policemen - firing at Palestinian gunmen in Jenin? How do we know? Who can we trust?

 

[Cleon]

zenith-nadir, much as I appreciate your ability to gleam articles from the Net and spin them as you see fit, would you please at least read them before sampling bits and pieces?

You write:

The militants want "to give politics a chance," he said, warning they could still return to violence. "Those who say the uprising is over are wrong. We are in a cease-fire, but if the Palestinians don't get their demands, there will be more uprisings," he said.(emphasis mine)

Now is that a Palestinian policeman talking or is that a combatant from an islamist paramilitary group?...I dunno cuz he's dressed like a policeman...

Here's the entire section, without your comments:

The militants are supposed to turn over their weapons when they start their new job, but some admit they don't. An Islamic Jihad gunman who is in talks with the
Palestinian Authority to receive a government job, said he and nine other militants for the group still have their weapons.

"We have put them away somewhere safe," said the gunman, who identified himself only as Abu Ahmed, fearing the Israelis could still track him down.

The militants want "to give politics a chance," he said, warning they could still return to violence. "Those who say the uprising is over are wrong. We are in a cease-fire, but if the Palestinians don't get their demands, there will be more uprisings," he said.

He's not a policeman, he's a different guy altogether "in talks" to get a government job. For all you know, he might wind up as a garbage collector.

So either you didn't bother reading it before spewing the propaganda, or you're deliberately misrepresenting it.

 

[zenith-nadir]

So either you didn't bother reading it before spewing the propaganda, or you're deliberately misrepresenting it.

The ironic part about your entry into this thread Cleon is that you object to me not quoting the proper islamist militant to your satisfaction...rather than the fact that islamist militants - who still have their weapons - are being given jobs as p-o-l-i-c-e-m-e-n and government officials.

Priceless....

 

[Cleon]

The ironic part about your entry into this thread Cleon is that you object to me not quoting the proper islamist militant to your satisfaction...rather than the fact that islamist militants - who still have their weapons - are being given jobs as p-o-l-i-c-e-m-e-n and government officials.

Priceless....

Spin, spin, spin....Must be your only talent.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Spin, spin, spin....Must be your only talent.

The only spin happening here is the one you are perpetuating. That being, lambasting me for not quoting islamist militants to your satisfaction rather than talking about islamist militants being given police and government positions.

 

[Cleon]

The only spin happening here is the one you are perpetuating. That being, lambasting me for not quoting islamist militants to your satisfaction rather than talking about islamist militants being given police and government positions.

Repeating the spin doesn't distract from the fact that you didn't bother reading the article, yet felt free to "sell" the parts you found important.

 

[kimiko]

These people shoot at buses full of kids or blow up Israeli buses, restaurants, malls, discos, pool halls, holiday resorts, markets, bus stops, seders, pizzarias, hotels, stores because they are ideological nut cases, some of whom are bent on martyrdom.

Calling them nut cases isn't helpful, and even suggests they aren't totally responsible for their actions due to mental illness. It's better to remember that they're mostly regular people, who deliberately choose to join terror organizations.

This is a group phenomenon. Once inside an organization whose goals include killing, ordinary people can commit seemingly demonic acts. According to psychiatrist Robert J. Lifton, who has studied Nazis and other violent, fanatical groups, cult members become two people: the self they were, and the new, morally disengaged killer self. Some people are more susceptible to such doubling than others, often in response to trauma.

Jessica Stern- Terror in the Name of God

Civilians die because the Palestinian Authority allows islamist paramilitary groups to use Palestinian civilians for cover and concealment.

And because the people who have set policy in Israel have decided that civilian casualties are acceptable in attacking terrorist leaders, even knowing they are providing the stimulus that people prone to the moral doubling described above will use to justify new attacks. Civilian deaths are in no one's interests.

I'm not convinced the PA has the power to get all of these people. They're obviously extremely violent, and seem to operate with impunity because of that violence. Have the Israelis tried enticing people with large bounties for getting important terror leaders?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Repeating the spin doesn't distract from the fact that you didn't bother reading the article, yet felt free to "sell" the parts you found important.

Calling them nut cases isn't helpful, and even suggests they aren't totally responsible for their actions due to mental illness. It's better to remember that they're mostly regular people, who deliberately choose to join terror organizations.

"Regular" people do not join terror organizations.

And because the people who have set policy in Israel have decided that civilian casualties are acceptable in attacking terrorist leaders, even knowing they are providing the stimulus that people prone to the moral doubling described above will use to justify new attacks. Civilian deaths are in no one's interests.

For decades Palestinian Islamist groups have been killing Israeli civilians, even prior to 1967. Anyhow... these so-called "leaders" know that the Palestinian Authority shall never arrest them. They also know that if they hide amongst Palestinian civilians when the Israelis come to get them it is great P.R. if Palestinian civilians die. Quite the dilemma for Israel. So either, A) Israel waits for the moon to turn blue and the Palestinian Authority finally arrests a single Islamist leader or B) Israel arrests and kills Islamist leaders who are sending people to kill Israelis.

Have the Israelis tried enticing people with large bounties for getting important terror leaders?

"Collaborators" - as they are called - are murdered on the spot. Their killers are never arrested.

Palestinians execute woman 'collaborator' - 25 August, 2002
The body of a Palestinian woman accused of collaborating with Israeli forces has been found in the West Bank town of Tulkarm. A member of the militant group, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, said it had seized her from her house and videotaped a confession before shooting her as a warning to others.

Gunmen kill suspected collaborators in Gaza hospital - August 3, 2004

A Gaza jail guard hurled grenades at prisoners accused of collaborating with Israel and militants later killed two of the wounded men in their hospital beds.

Four armed Palestinians went into the hospital's intensive care unit and shot Hamdiya three times in the head and chest, killing him instantly.

There are literally hundreds of these incidents Kimiko. We are talking about some really really bad people here. More ironic is that the Palestinian Authority doesn't even attempt to arrest these people for murdering Palestinians without trial. That is the environment Israel and Palestinian civilians have to live with... terrorists killing Israelis while they hide amongst Palestinian civilians, murderous terrorist gangs executing Palestinians without trial in the streets, and an "Authority" who refuses to stop any of it. Some here blame the "settlements" for it all, I chose to see the forest rather than the trees.

 

[Cleon]

Well, as long as you're honest about your lack of interest in accuracy or facts.

"Regular" people do not join terror organizations.

And where, then, do terrorists come from? Planet Zeebo?

For decades Palestinian Islamist groups have been killing Israeli civilians, even prior to 1967. Anyhow... these so-called "leaders" know that the Palestinian Authority shall never arrest them.

Nope, the PA shall never arrest them.

"Collaborators" - as they are called - are murdered on the spot. Their killers are never arrested.

All of them are murdered "on the spot?" Always? Everyone who ever helped the Israelis in any way? What spot, exactly? Are you sure their killers are never arrested?

 

[Art Vandelay]

I'm not dodging the issue; you seem to want me to agree that the deaths of Palestinian children is entirely the fault of Palestinian terrorists.

No, I just want to clarify whether you think that the death of children is a result of the violent situation, or whether you think the IDF would kill children no matter what. Let's put aside the issue of "fault" for the moment. Is it within the power of the Palestinians to prevent the death of their children?

Unless Palestinians shoot the kids, then the IDF is still responsible for reacting when they know civilians will die.

Are you using "responsible" to mean the same thing as "at fault"?

Only if boys with rocks can be considered akin to an armed military. I think "combatants" would probably be better reserved to organized violent groups, and only applied to young people when they take on armed activities like shootings and bombings.

I don't see why we need to have only one type of combatants, and everyone who isn't fullblown paramilitary is "noncombatants". Calling these people "noncombatants" gives the impression that they have no responsibility for their deaths.

 

[webfusion]

Check your sources

Cleon, what are you trying to prove?

You know perfectly well that the essence of the information presented here is largely correct. You seem to take special pride in ignoring the main realities and getting your kicks by going off on some bizarro nit-picking fest.

The article you quoted about the PA "arresting" some people who were thought to be behind the STAGE nightclub bombing (a report from February) has had some updates since then. Are you aware of new details in this ongoing story, or are you satisfied with the old Feb. 26th version? I am astonished that you are participating in this discussion without bothering to place the truth before the readers of this forum, Cleon.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/571284.html

• An Israel Defense Forces soldier was killed and another lightly wounded in a gun battle with wanted Palestinians near the West Bank city of Tul Karm before dawn Monday May 2, 2005. The IDF fatality was identified as Staff Sergeant Dan Talasnikov, 21, from Nir Galim. He was laid to rest Monday in the Nir Galim cemetery.
  An Islamic Jihad leader suspected of involvement in a February suicide bombing in Tel Aviv was also killed in the clashes. Palestinian sources identified the Jihad militant killed in the ensuing clashes as Shafiq Abdul Rani, 37, one of the leaders of the group's military wing in the Tul Karm area, Israel Radio reported. He had been arrested for his alleged involvement in the Tel Aviv bombing, but escaped from a Palestinian prison about two weeks ago, according to the report.

He 'escaped' which is a euphemism for "he was let go"
and then IDF forces decided to take care of the job themselves, at considerable risk to the troops involved (as evidenced by the result of Sgt Talisnikov dying).

When you post into a forum to call someone else "lacking interest in accuracy or facts" then it would behoove you to try and offer some insights of your own that meet the minimum standards of repudiation.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=palestinians+arrest&itemNo=573366

So far what I have seen is laser beams and dazzle but no substance from you, Cleon.

 

[demon]

webfusion:
"He 'escaped' which is a euphemism for "he was let go""

Says who? You?
I can think of a few euphemisms for that kind of BS.

 

[Cleon]

Re: Check your sources

Cleon, what are you trying to prove?

Mainly, that zenith-nadir cares less about facts and accuracy than about backing up his point of view. Actually, I need to prove very little; he proves it pretty well on his own.

You know perfectly well that the essence of the information presented here is largely correct. You seem to take special pride in ignoring the main realities and getting your kicks by going off on some bizarro nit-picking fest.

Asking for evidence of his claims and pointing out his errors is a "bizarro nit-picking fest?" Funny, I could've sworn this was a skeptics' board. My bad.

The article you quoted about the PA "arresting" some people who were thought to be behind the STAGE nightclub bombing (a report from February) has had some updates since then. Are you aware of new details in this ongoing story, or are you satisfied with the old Feb. 26th version? I am astonished that you are participating in this discussion without bothering to place the truth before the readers of this forum, Cleon.

Considering that zenith-nadir has already established himself as not giving a whit about the truth, your astonishment means very little to me.

He 'escaped' which is a euphemism for "he was let go"
and then IDF forces decided to take care of the job themselves, at considerable risk to the troops involved (as evidenced by the result of Sgt Talisnikov dying).

Wow. I assume, of course, that the moment I ask for evidence of this claim--mainly that he was let go, and that "escape" is a euphemism for this--I will once again "astonish" you by not "bothering to place the truth in front of the readers of this forum."

Funny how that works.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: Check your sources

Cleon, what are you trying to prove?

That he is a troll. He entered this thread to attack me, period. He has nothing to offer, no insight, no new ideas... hell, he has yet to address the topic of the thread. All he has done is dropped his usual libelous turd into the conversation under the guise of his self-imposed superiority complex.

Well as you can see by his post regarding the "arrested" militants he failed to produce the actual facts... that they were let go days later to kill again. Now dropping into threads to attack posters and misrepresenting facts is frankly trolling of the first order.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: Check your sources

Wow. I assume, of course, that the moment I ask for evidence of this claim--mainly that he was let go, and that "escape" is a euphemism for this--I will once again "astonish" you by not "bothering to place the truth in front of the readers of this forum."

Funny how that works.

Cleon,

Can you provide one example of where the Palestinian-Authority ever arrested, charged, and convicted a man for terrorism?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: Re: Re: Check your sources

Cleon, Can you provide one example of where the Palestinian-Authority ever arrested, charged, and convicted a man for terrorism?

How about an easier one. No jews involved. Can he provide one example of where the Palestinian-Authority ever arrested, charged, and convicted a person for murdering another Palestinian without trial? See: collaborators.

 

[Cleon]

Re: Re: Check your sources

That he is a troll. He entered this thread to attack me, period.

Quite an ego you have, there.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: Re: Check your sources

Quite an ego you have, there.

That's just a warm-up, right? You're about to answer our questions?