With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[Mephisto]

Those aren't "ACCEPTED FIGURES" are they?

From Sept. 29, 2000 to May 2, 2005: Israeli Dead: 964
Palestinian Dead: 3612

from http://www.mepc.org/public_asp/resources/mrates.asp

Surely both sides have to stop murdering to have a proper ceasefire?

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I've often held the unpopular assertion that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. These numbers will no doubt be questioned by those who don't stop to think that:

A. most Palestinians are dirt poor

B. Palestine DOES NOT have an organized military

C. Palestine DOES NOT have Aircraft or Tanks

D. Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes after any terrorists action

Tensions run high on both side of this scenario, and rightfully so. What amazes me is that; in spite of all the death and destruction perpetuated by either side, no one stops to consider another solution. So, it's business as usual; they kill, we kill, they kill more, we kill more to teach them shouldn't shouldn't kill more, they get angry . . . where does it stop?

Mephisto

 

[Mephisto]

Almost like handling snakes, isn't it?

The wingnut fundie "Settlers" put their own children in harm`s way. Most must surely know that they are invaders and even if they don`t, they must be aware that they are moving to one of the most dangerous areas of the world -straight into the maw of a hostile native population, from whom even the permanent IDF detachments cannot protect them fully. Why don`t Israeli parents keep their children from harm`s way and withdraw from the Occupied Territories -protecting their own children directly, and increasing the safety of all those kids behind the Green Line who suffer for the "settlers" crimes?
Israeli children are placed in harm`s way through the conscious actions of their Government -who see "settlers" and "settlements" as strategic pieces in a colonialist project- and the complicity of parents who place religious dogma over the interests of their kids. So let`s spare a thought for all the kids who are placed in harm`s way by the Israeli Government, who care little for the safety of Israeli children and even less for Palestinian ones.
As I said before, maybe standards of behaviour tend to get a little rough when an entire population is forced to subsist in a communal open grave.

Your post struck me as particularly observant. I've always questioned the intelligence of people (many of them parents) who would move into such a place. It seems to me similar to an American truckdriver (you know, one of those guys with the dotted line around his neck) moving his whole family to Tikrit to be closer to his job - then blaming "terrorists" for making conditions unsafe for his family.

This irresponsible behavior is, to me, EXACTLY like dancing with snakes under the assumption that God will protect you. Unfortunately, innocents on BOTH sides of the fight die because adults around them respond in the most conventional (and predictable) way.

Mephisto

 

[Mycroft]

And let's not forget it's not just Israelis who are being targeted in this cease-fire that isn't.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1115434039847

Islamic Jihad kill 'collaborator' teen

Islamic Jihad members on Saturday killed a Palestinian youth suspected of collaborating with Israeli intelligence, the group said.

The body of the 18-year-old youth, identified as Rami al-Malakh, was found outside his village near the West Bank town of Tulkarm.

Residents said al-Makh had disappeared last night. He was shot to death.

In Tulkarm, the Islamic Jihad issued a leaflet claiming responsibility for the killing, saying they would release a video of the youth confessing to giving Israeli security forces information on the location of Islamic Jihad fugitives.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Palestinians on Friday morning fired an anti-tank rocket at a school bus carrying children outside the southern Gaza Strip settlement of Kfar Darom

The wingnut fundie "Settlers" put their own children in harm`s way.

I keep reading stories like this comming from Israel. Attacks, attempted attacks, people caught smuggling weapons for an attack...at what point do you decide that a "cease-fire" where one side hasn't ceased firing isn't a cease-fire?

In my opinion it's really sad that the people trying to ruin everything are willing to do so against the wishes of the elected representatives of the Palestinians. For decades Arafat let them use Palestinian civilians for cover and concealment. Now if Abbas really and truely stops Hamas, Hizbollah, Al Aqsa or Islamic Jihad from dictating - in essence - Palestinian foreign policy, then he is a "tool of the zionists" or a "puppet of the American zionist lobby".

And therein lies the rub. All the settlers are leaving Gaza, the jihadists should be celebrating, but they are nuts, so their answer is firing anti-tank rockets at school buses carrying children.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Those aren't "ACCEPTED FIGURES" are they?

Originally posted by Mephisto
I've often held the unpopular assertion that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Which is another way of saying you will apply no standards of behavior to the Palestinian-Arabs and will not object when they target children.

Originally posted by Mephisto
These numbers will no doubt be questioned by those who don't stop to think that:

A. most Palestinians are dirt poor

Due to the Intifada. Before the Intifada the per-capita income of Palestinian-Arabs was higher than average for Arab nations

Originally posted by Mephisto
B. Palestine DOES NOT have an organized military

Their militants are very well organized.

Originally posted by Mephisto
C. Palestine DOES NOT have Aircraft or Tanks

Nor do they want them.

Originally posted by Mephisto
D. Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes after any terrorists action

In fact, they don’t. That policy was ended months ago. When it was policy, they bulldozed homes of terrorists who’s families would get a $25,000 reward (paid for by the previous government of Iraq) and a pension from the Palestinian-Authority.

Originally posted by Mephisto
Tensions run high on both side of this scenario, and rightfully so. What amazes me is that; in spite of all the death and destruction perpetuated by either side, no one stops to consider another solution. So, it's business as usual; they kill, we kill, they kill more, we kill more to teach them shouldn't shouldn't kill more, they get angry . . . where does it stop?

We agree other solutions need to be considered. I believe it won’t stop until there is honest consideration of the Palestinian-Arabs, which in part means not equating terrorism with "freedom fighting."

 

[Mephisto]

You can't put your words in my mouth!

Which is another way of saying you will apply no standards of behavior to the Palestinian-Arabs and will not object when they target children.

No, that's not another way of saying that! Those are YOUR words. All I meant is that each side believes that it is doing the right thing. Palestinian terrorists are "bravely" fighting the Israeli threat to their land and the Israeli military is "bravely" carving their oasis of peace amidst hostile elements. Isn't it clear to you yet that I abhor all the killing, violence and useless waste of lives?

Due to the Intifada. Before the Intifada the per-capita income of Palestinian-Arabs was higher than average for Arab nations

When I make a claim like that, I'm always asked for proof. Otherwise I rob them of the chance to scoff at my evidence. Where's yours?

Their militants are very well organized.

So what? White Supremicists in the American south are very well organized, that doesn't qualify them as an army.

. . . they bulldozed homes of terrorists who’s families would get a $25,000 reward (paid for by the previous government of Iraq) and a pension from the Palestinian-Authority.

Well, what's their big complaint then? Sounds to me like it's very profitable to lose the land that generations of your family have lived on. They're probably all old houses anyway, and who wouldn't want a chance to have the home where you raised all your children razed if you get a pension plan? Those stupid Palestinians, they don't know a good thing when it crumbles at their feet!

We agree other solutions need to be considered. I believe it won’t stop until there is honest consideration of the Palestinian-Arabs, which in part means not equating terrorism with "freedom fighting."

At least we agree, again, at the point when it makes the most difference, at the end. I support your assertions that terrorism should never be seen as "freedom fighting," but you'll have to remember that isn't my view of it. You'll also have to agree that we need to quit seeing the Israelis as brave frontiersmen carving their country from the grips of indigenous savages.

Mephisto

 

[Mycroft]

Re: You can't put your words in my mouth!

Originally posted by Mephisto
No, that's not another way of saying that! Those are YOUR words. All I meant is that each side believes that it is doing the right thing. Palestinian terrorists are "bravely" fighting the Israeli threat to their land and the Israeli military is "bravely" carving their oasis of peace amidst hostile elements. Isn't it clear to you yet that I abhor all the killing, violence and useless waste of lives?

It’s not at all clear that you abhor killing and violence when you equate terrorists to freedom fighters. Yes, we can agree that everyone thinks they’re doing the "right thing", but that can be said about everyone everywhere. Firing rockets at school busses full of children is a war crime by anyone’s standard, and is not the act of a "freedom fighter."

Originally posted by Mephisto
When I make a claim like that, I'm always asked for proof. Otherwise I rob them of the chance to scoff at my evidence. Where's yours?

Maybe. If you get tired of waiting for me you can start by checking the websites maintained by Saudi Arabia, they keep statistics on Arabic peoples everywhere. Keep in mind I’ve been over all this before with Demon, AUP, the Fool, E.J.Armstrong and others long ago, so my enthusiasm for spending a couple hours tracking down trivia for your benefit is low. I have a family.

Originally posted by Mephisto
So what? White Supremicists in the American south are very well organized, that doesn't qualify them as an army.

So what does it mean that they don’t have an army? The violence from the Palestinian-Arabs is very well funded and organized. Saying "They don’t have an army" is sort of like excusing the violence of Al Capone by saying, "He doesn’t have a police force."

Originally posted by Mephisto
Well, what's their big complaint then? Sounds to me like it's very profitable to lose the land that generations of your family have lived on. They're probably all old houses anyway, and who wouldn't want a chance to have the home where you raised all your children razed if you get a pension plan? Those stupid Palestinians, they don't know a good thing when it crumbles at their feet!

Is this sort of sarcasm helpful? Knowing the Palestinian-Arabs martyrs families used to get cash rewards and pensions is important context in which to understand some ways the conflict has been perpetuated and to help understand the Israeli policy of demolition. That’s not the same as saying the Israeli policy was good or effective.

Originally posted by Mephisto
You'll also have to agree that we need to quit seeing the Israelis as brave frontiersmen carving their country from the grips of indigenous savages.

Where did you get this? I’ve never said anything like this nor have I seen anyone else say it. This is not the way to reach understanding on such a complex issue.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mephisto
Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes after any terrorists action

I have always wondered how resorting to terrorism is meant to stop terrorism.

By the way, you will find that people like Mycroft will try to demonise you by interpreting your own words in ways that you do not mean.

I notice that he is already engaging in this, one of his regular attempts to demonise those who disagree with hime when he makes the claim about your words that 'Which is another way of saying you will apply no standards of behavior to the Palestinian-Arabs and will not object when they target children.' He seems unable to construct a rational argument without resorting to this type of abuse.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mycroft
Keep in mind I’ve been over all this before with Demon, AUP, the Fool, E.J.Armstrong and others long ago, so my enthusiasm for spending a couple hours tracking down trivia for your benefit is low. I have a family.

A key thing to remember about Mycroft is that he is the Sylvia Browne of this forum. You can start the clock ticking because he will carry on running away from his own claims. This seems to a characteristic of those who espouse his views such as Elind, Sceptic, zenith-nadir the antisceptics on this site and those who appear to support their seedy tactics such as Randfan.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
...so their answer is firing anti-tank rockets at school buses carrying children.

So their answer is murdering schoolchildren.

Ghadir Mokheimer was hit in the chest when troops opened fire towards the school. The Israelis said they returned fire after coming under mortar attack.

A schoolgirl from the same refugee camp in Khan Younis died last month after being shot in the head at her desk.

Israel has been hit by controversy over the death of another Palestinian girl shot by troops in Rafah last week.

from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3737218.stm

 

[Mephisto]

Alright then, FOR THE RECORD!

A. I abhor killing and violence for anything other than self-defense against an IMMEDIATE threat to your life.

B. I don't believe that terrorists are freedom fighters - only that some people see them that way.

C. I don't think "conventional means" (i.e. blowing the **** out of each other) is solving anything, nor has it solved anything in the past 100 years.

D. I don't believe we have a right to force our form of government on anyone.

and last,

E. I don't believe that anyone other than whomever suggested giving Playstations to the Palestinians AND the Israelis has much to suggest in the way of original thought.

Mephisto

 

[Mephisto]

I have seen the light!

By the way, you will find that people like Mycroft will try to demonise you by interpreting your own words in ways that you do not mean.

I notice that he is already engaging in this, one of his regular attempts to demonise those who disagree with hime when he makes the claim about your words that 'Which is another way of saying you will apply no standards of behavior to the Palestinian-Arabs and will not object when they target children.' He seems unable to construct a rational argument without resorting to this type of abuse.

I've already noticed that tendency (when in fact, it doesn't take much to demonize someone named Mephisto).

I just wonder if you are sympathetic to my posts, or if you're just not willing to apply standards of behavior to liberals when they question assertions that a cease-fire should end.

Mephisto

 

[Mycroft]

Re: I have seen the light!

I just wonder if you are sympathetic to my posts, or if you're just not willing to apply standards of behavior to liberals when they question assertions that a cease-fire should end.

Whoa, I hope you’re not claiming I said a cease fire should end.

Closer to my opinion would be to recognize the "cease fire" that exists now needs work, and that more should be done to make it a reality before advancing the process in other ways. I want there to be a cease fire, I want it to be a real one. I just think pretending it’s not being broken when it is is counter-productive.

BTW, E.J.Armstrong is on ignore by many for trollish behavior. He’s sympathetic to your posts because he wants to bait someone into a long and pointless exchange with him.

 

[zenith-nadir]

BTW, E.J.Armstrong is on ignore by many for trollish behavior. He’s sympathetic to your posts because he wants to bait someone into a long and pointless exchange with him.

I think he wants to point out that Palestinian children die because of the occupation. Which is true. It shouldn't happen but it is true.

Where EJ fails to make the intellectual leap is that a year later his 'freedom fighters' are not avenging the death of Ghadir Mokheimer by specifically targeting jewish schoolbuses with a anti-tank rockets.

 

[kimiko]

I think he wants to point out that Palestinian children die because of the occupation. Which is true. It shouldn't happen but it is true.

Where EJ fails to make the intellectual leap is that a year later his 'freedom fighters' are not avenging the death of Ghadir Mokheimer by specifically targeting jewish schoolbuses with a anti-tank rockets.

Maybe they're avenging the deaths of Palestinian children.

 

[The Fool]

Re: Re: I have seen the light!

Whoa, I hope you’re not claiming I said a cease fire should end.

Closer to my opinion would be to recognize the "cease fire" that exists now needs work, and that more should be done to make it a reality before advancing the process in other ways. I want there to be a cease fire, I want it to be a real one. I just think pretending it’s not being broken when it is is counter-productive.

BTW, E.J.Armstrong is on ignore by many for trollish behavior. He’s sympathetic to your posts because he wants to bait someone into a long and pointless exchange with him.

Mycroft.

How should the cease fire be "worked on"? Much of this violence seems (to me) to be simple lawlessness. I hear you saying often that it has to be a "real one" before the process is allowed to advance is this like to saying that crime should stop in New York before something is allowed to happen? I think it will be decades before random acts of lawlessness and violence by uncooperative factions finally completely stops. Your formula is simply going to entrench the occupation.

 

[Mephisto]

I agree with The Fool!

Mycroft.

How should the cease fire be "worked on"? Much of this violence seems (to me) to be simple lawlessness. I hear you saying often that it has to be a "real one" before the process is allowed to advance is this like to saying that crime should stop in New York before something is allowed to happen? I think it will be decades before random acts of lawlessness and violence by uncooperative factions finally completely stops. Your formula is simply going to entrench the occupation.

As usual, I agree heartily with the fool (there are many in my life).

I don't think that innocent Palestinians should pay for lawless actions by militant Palestinians, and I don't think that Israeli children should pay for the justification of violence for violence by the Israeli government.

The entire area (laughingly called "The HOLY Land") is at the mercy of whomever chooses to cause death and destruction at any given moment.

If had to do something about "fixing" the problem, I would immediately mix the children of both Palestinians and Israelis in a common school. I heard this was done once in Northern Ireland as an experiment that ended well. It would break the cycle of thought that is perpetuated by adults and allow the next generation to see the other side as simply children caught in the same trap. They might even become . . . God forbid, friends!

Mephisto

 

[Art Vandelay]

I'm more concerned that innocents will suffer for the actions of idiots. I'd be willing to bet that good many Palestinians DON'T support the actions of their "freedom fighters." I'd also be willing to bet that many Israelis also don't support the bulldozing of Palestinan homes and the displacement of families every time such an act occurs.

Let's see: when Israelis kill Palestinians, Palestinians hold protests. When Israelis bulldoze homes, other Israelis hold protests. Now, how many times have you heard about Palestinians protesting a terrorist attack? There is a worldwide movement by Jews in opposition to Israeli policy. Where is the Muslim opposition to terrorism? I really don't see much evidence that a significant portion of Muslims are actively opposing terrorism.

What amazes me is that; in spite of all the death and destruction perpetuated by either side, no one stops to consider another solution.

It seems to me that one side is quite willing to consider other solutions, but the other is not.

This to me is like FDR invading Uruguay in retaliation for Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.

It seems to me more like invading France in response to Japan's attack. And the invasion of Iraq was not merely "retaliation" for 9/11, it was due to a recognition that the status quo was not viable, and the US would soon have to choose between ending the cease fire agreement on Saddam's terms, or on their own.

So, you're saying that we're not technically responsible for a good number of those deaths?

Yes, the US is not in fact responsible for every single death that occurs in Iraq.

As for the 100,000 figure, where does one go to obtain the "accepted figures" you talk about?

Your link cites them; ask them.

BTW, these are NOT my own trumped up charges, I was merely pointing the way to other sources that seem to agree on a figure closer to the 100,000 mark than some care to admit.

Oh, you're just repeating someone else's charges. Funny how you don't accept that as a defense for Bush. Anyone with a web server can put up a website claiming that the US has killed 100,000 Iraqis. Doesn't make it convincing, though.

A. I abhor killing and violence for anything other than self-defense against an IMMEDIATE threat to your life.

So say there's an army marching towards your city. You could set up an ambush before the army reaches your city, and have a good chance of winning. Or you could adopt a completely defensive posture and wait for them to reach your city, but there is only a small chance of winning that way. You would say that the first choice is immoral because the threat is not "immediate" enough?

C. I don't think "conventional means" (i.e. blowing the **** out of each other) is solving anything, nor has it solved anything in the past 100 years.

How can you possibly say that? Have you never heard of World War II?

D. I don't believe we have a right to force our form of government on anyone.

It's not an issue of forcing them to have our form of government, it's a matter of forcing them to not force their form of government on others. We havea right to stop oppression.

E.J. Armstrong

By the way, you will find that people like Mycroft will try to demonise you by interpreting your own words in ways that you do not mean.

So their answer is murdering schoolchildren.

What a hypocrite you are.
You complain about Mycroft misrepresnting others' positions, then you do it yourself. Killing schoolchildren is not their "answer", it's an unavoidable consequence of the Palestinian decision to use them as cover. And in addition, you seem to be using "Palestinian dead" as a synonym for "killed by Israelis".

kimiko

Maybe they're avenging the deaths of Palestinian children.

By making sure that even more will die?

The Fool

I hear you saying often that it has to be a "real one" before the process is allowed to advance is this like to saying that crime should stop in New York before something is allowed to happen?

No, because there isn't widespread support for criminals among New Yorkers.

 

[webfusion]

Cease-Fire is holding fairly well

Despite some lapses, the cease-fire is being observed in the main. The Israelis are demanding more accountability and action by Abbas, while Abbas is requesting a face-to-face meeting immediately.

Next week, Sharon's senior advisor Dov Weisglass is due to meet with PA chief negotiator Saeb Erekat to discuss the implementation of February's Sharm summit decisions.

Interior Minister Ophir Pines-Paz called on Sharon to meet with Abbas ahead of that in order to prevent the ceasefire from collapsing, Israel Radio reported on Saturday.

Pines-Paz also called for an immediate meeting between the joint Israel-PA security committees in order to restore the level of cooperation between the two sides, according to Israel Radio.

FYI, here is the report from the West Bank regarding the tragic shooting incident on Wednesday:

IDF suspends officer after Palestinian boys killed
By Arnon Regular- Haaretz Correspondent

Israel Defense Forces GOC Central Command Yair Naveh yesterday suspended a senior Combat Engineering Corps officer who commanded a force that shot dead two Palestinian teenagers in the West Bank on Wednesday. Naveh said the conduct of the deputy company commander was defined as "unreasonable."

Oudai A'asi, 14, and his 15-year-old cousin Kamal A'asi, both from the West Bank village of Beit Lakia, were shot dead while throwing stones along with hundreds of other protesters at a separation fence work site next to a village north of Highway 443.

Around 6 P.M., some 200 youths arrived on the scene and began throwing rocks at bulldozers and at the five soldiers who arrived on the scene in a jeep.

It was this specific action which may have prompted the militants in Gaza to fire the Qassems and perpetrate the attack on the bus, as retaliation for the death of those teenagers. In this one instance, kimiko appears to be correct.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
Mycroft.

How should the cease fire be "worked on"?

Previously we talked about the revolving door justice system for the Palestinian-Arabs. I would work on the cease fire by seeing to it that the Palestinian Authorities made real efforts to bring to justice those who broke the cease fire.

If they didn’t have the capacity to do it, I would get them aid. If they didn’t have the political clout to do it, I would wait until they did. In any case, I would work on solving this problem before moving on. You can’t make it go away by pretending it isn’t really happening.

Originally posted by The Fool
Much of this violence seems (to me) to be simple lawlessness.

Firing a rocket isn’t simple lawlessness and even if it were, it still needs to be dealt with. So long as these actions get a nod and a wink or (at worst) a slap on the wrist from the Abbas government, a cease fire can’t be taken seriously.

Originally posted by The Fool
I hear you saying often that it has to be a "real one" before the process is allowed to advance is this like to saying that crime should stop in New York before something is allowed to happen?

If the Palestinian Authority put the same effort into arresting these criminals as the NYPD puts into curbing crime, I’d be more than satisfies. The problem is the PA encourages it, they don’t curb it.

Originally posted by The Fool
I think it will be decades before random acts of lawlessness and violence by uncooperative factions finally completely stops. Your formula is simply going to entrench the occupation.

I don’t expect perfection but it’s not unreasonable to expect real efforts. Arresting, charging and convicting militants who break the cease-fire is a reasonable expectation as is ending enticement to violence. We are not faced with a black/white choice of allow everything or demand perfect compliance. There is reasonable ground in between, only you refuse to look at it.