originally posted by Art Vandelay
You are simply begging the question of whether they show disregard to Palestinian lives, giving no evidence for that allegation.
Shooting at schools is an affront to decency and shows a disregard for the lives of children.
Even IF they show such disregard, you are STILL making assumptions.
No. I reported the words of the Israeli soldiers as reported by the BBC. Shooting at children in schools is crime against humanity - whoever does it.
You can run around in circles all you claiming that those assumptions are based on evidence, but that doesn't change the fact that you are making assumptions.
No. My posts are based on evidence from one of the most reputable news companies in the world and the words of the Israeli soldiers themselves. Are you claiming that the soldiers are lying and that the Palestiniabns shot the children or some other group shot them. If so, please provide evidence.
Earlier, you said that "So their answer is murdering schoolchildren." Unless you can produce an official policy declaration to that effect, all you have is the allegation that they murder schoolchildren,
Where did I say it was an official policy? You can torch your own straw men as much as you like but you are just debating your own claim. I believe my post accurately represents the choice made by specific Israeli soldiers to shoot at schools. In doing so they chose to do so in a way that showed no concern for the children therein and as such any deaths that result can be described as murder. Who forced them to pull their triggers and fire into schools?
WHICH IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM THE IDEA THAT THIS IS THEIR "ANSWER".
No it isn't. It is the chosen answer of those soldiers. Unless you are now suggesting someone forced each one of them to pull their triggers.
In claiming that this is their "answer", you are saying that they do INTENTIONALLY.
Yes I am. Who else forced them to pull their triggers?
Incidents in which they do it accidently, even if due to gross negligence, do nothing to support your position.
Then please supply your claim that these cases happened accidently.
If you are allowed to make deductions as to their intentions based on their actions, it is hypocritical for you to deny the same right to Mycroft.
I have made no deductions. The soldiers admitted to shooting into the school. Mycroft invented something about what the other poster said.
Finally, the fact that you ridicule the idea that they might actually hit schoolchildren by accident shows that you either know absolutely nothing about warfare, or you are being deliberately disingenuous.
Please present your evidence that they all did so by accident. Is every incident of Palestinian children being killed by Israeli an accident in your opinion? If not, how many have not been accidental.
When applied to Mycroft, the standard is whether they "stated" it. When applied to you, it is whether it is supported by the evidence. You have two different standards, ergo you are a hypocrite.
Mycroft made up something about another posters intentions. I accurately reported that the IDF have killed children in schools with a disregard to human life. That amounts to murder.
You posted no evidence that the IDF did it, let alone that they CHOSE to do it.
Once agin you seem to have failed to actually read the links I quoted when the IDF stated 'The Israelis said they returned fire after coming under mortar attack.' in relation to the child being shot. Are you now trying to claim that any one else shot the child? If so, please present your evidence. I also presented these statements by the IDF
'The soldiers complained that after the first shots were fired at the girl, the company commander approached her motionless body, fired two shots to her head, and then sprayed her with automatic fire. The commander denies some of the accusations, Haaretz reports. ' I have adasked you before and I ask you again. Who is lying here? The IDF or the IDF? Do you have an answer this time or are you going to ignore the evidence of the IDF's own words yet again?
So if someone denies something, they can't possibly be guilty?!?
Who denies what exactly?
You didn't HAVE any evidence! If you think that there's something on another website that supports your position, quote it! Don't post a link and expect me to hunt through the website trying to figure out what you think is "evidence".
My evidence was posted for you. The soldiers admitted firing. I have posted it again on this site. I have also posted where the IDF must be lying about the murder of a girl. Let me post it again for you as you appear to have a problem with finding words on this thread.
Which part of the IDF is lying here?
'The soldiers complained that after the first shots were fired at the girl, the company commander approached her motionless body, fired two shots to her head, and then sprayed her with automatic fire. The commander denies some of the accusations, Haaretz reports. '
So... someone in the IDF must be lying, therefore killing Palestinian children must be an official policy of the IDF? Why is someone being investigated for killing a Palestinian child if that is the official policy of the IDF?
Where did I state that killing Palestinian children is an official policy of the IDF? That is something you made up. Debate your own straw men if you like. Your inventions, like Mycrofts are nothing to do with me.
Give me a quote from an Israeli that shows that killing children is an official goal of the IDF.
As you made the claim you will have to supply your own evidence.
What part of "You're making the claim, you have the burden of proof" do you not understand?
Either you will support your own claims or you don't? It is up to you.
I said "Seeing as how no other methods of defending themselves have been presented, [emphasis added]". I didn't ask for any old alternative, I asked for an alternative method of defending themselves.
Defending themselves against what exactly - maurading houses, ten year old girls in school uniform carrying school books, olive trees, pregnant women in labour? Everyone, including Sharon should stop terrorising people - full stop. That is the alternative. Are you suggesting that collectively punishing entire group of innocent peopel is a defense against something. If so, why can't everyone indulge in that practice?
They are not shooting at children at school! That is an outright lie, and if you had any scruples at all you would ashamed of such a disgusting allegation.
It is not a lie it is a statement of fact. The contempt the IDF has for the lives of innocent children is also shown in this following harrowing extract from
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A16886-2004Nov27?language=printer
'"It's a little girl," a soldier watching from a nearby Israeli observation post cautioned over the military radio. "She's running defensively eastward. . . . A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."
Four minutes later, Israeli troops opened fire on the girl with machine guns and rifles, the radio transmissions indicated. The captain walked to the spot where the girl "was lying down" and fired two bullets from his M-16 assault rifle into her head, according to an indictment against the officer. He started to walk away, but pivoted, set his rifle on automatic and emptied his magazine into the girl's prone body, the indictment alleged.
"This is Commander," the captain said into the radio when he was finished. "Whoever dares to move in the area, even if it's a 3-year-old -- you have to kill him. Over."
The BBC also reports that
'The United Nations runs this school. Its investigators believe that Raghda was hit by a bullet fired by Israeli soldiers.
The shooting began when Palestinian militants who oppose the Israeli occupation of Gaza launched a series of missiles at a nearby Jewish settlement.
In the Israeli town of Sderot, the threat is from crude Hamas rockets
The UN says that the soldiers shot indiscriminately into the crowded refugee camp for more than half an hour.'
The Washington Post in the above link also states that
The shooting of the schoolgirl added to a growing number of incidents that have spurred Israeli soldiers to speak out about abuses of Palestinians, despite pressure from superiors in the field and statements by senior military officials playing down such cases. Last week, after troops provided photographic evidence to an Israeli newspaper, the military opened an investigation into allegations that soldiers desecrated the bodies of Palestinians killed during army operations.
I urge every IDF member to support the truth and speak about what they have witnessed accurately and completely.
This from someone who feels free to continue lying about me because I didn't officially deny the lie. My point is that I hear over and over again that they shouldn't do this, but I can't get anyone to tell me what an alternative is.
What lie exactly are you talking about? At least support your own claims this time. You can no longer say that you have not been provided with an alternative. I have given you a number of alternatives. Stop terrorising innocent children for one. Stop shooting at schools. Stop shooting schoolchildren. Stop bulldozing the homes of innocent children. Stop building apartheid walls. Stop stealing land. Start treating the Palestinians like Isrealis i.e. like human beings.
Most incredibly idiotic ideas are easy to arrive at.
Then provide at least some evidence why you infer my ideas are idiotic. Is Sharon stopping his terrorism of innocent Palestinians idiotic in your eyes. Is stopping shooting into schools idiotic in your eyes?
For instance, what's an alternative to high pollution cars? Don't use any cars at all!
If you want to hurl abuse at your own ideas feel free.
How can we stop the high rates of death due to medical errors? Outlaw hospitals! See how easy it is to come up with a solution when one completely ignores the premises of the question?
What this demonstrates is your inability to accurately reflect my views. Why not suggest that if Sharon really wants to stop terrorism he might start with his own terrorism? How difficult is that idea?
"Decent sentiments"? You call accusing the Israelis of being murderers "decent sentiments"? Your statements have been very short on concern for the children, and long on the hate mongering against the Israelis.
Once agin you disparage decent sentiments. Your attempt to demonise me by falsely climing I hate Israelis. Please quote a single phrase of mine where I state that I hate Israelis. Just one would do. You can't. Once again as you have demonstrated so often in this thread, like Mycroft you have made something up. You can carry on torching your own straw men but they remain your own straw men, not mine.
Is your case and Mycroft's really so weak that you have to make things up to support it? I do believe that if you choose to murder someone you are a murderer, wherever you come from.
So why is it that when I specifically ask for an alternative that defends Israel, you give one that includes no such provision?
An alternative to what, terrorism as a method of defending yourself? The answer is very simple. Stop terrorising. My answer to what you do is obey the law. How difficult is that? Ask Sharon to stop assassinating untried people in circumstances that ensure innocent children are murdered. Treat the Palestinians like Israelis.
It is impossible to engage in warfare without collective punishment.
Despicable. When did Israel declare war against innocent Palestinians? Even in warfare you have to behave like human beings. Sharon does not have to bulldoze the homes of innocent people. I believe that is a crime against humanity.
Are there a lot of Palestinian children who own their own homes?
Since when did you have to own a building for it to be your home. This demonstrates an chillingly inhuman attitude towards innocent Palestinian children.
Even though your accusations of terrorism are based on lies?
What lies? At least try to support your claim. Are you saying that Sharon does not collectively punish an entire group by bulldozing the homes of innocent children? That is an act of terror.
No, it suggests that I think there are some children who are not innocent. That you continue to engage in ridiculous interpretations of my statements, while criticizing Mycroft's "inventing" words shows just how dishonest you are.
Mycroft invented something the other person did not say. You chose to put the words - innocent children - into quotes. That was your choice. You have also chosen to ask 'Are there a lot of Palestinian children who own their own homes?' I submit this demonstartes extemely clearly your despicable attitude to innocent Palestinian children.
When have I ever said that "Palestinian" is a synonym for "terrorist"?
You still haven't denied it so presumably you feel it was an accurate reflection of your own tactic. Here is a sample of your own posts.
'What's really going on is that that Palestinians kill a bunch of people, public opinion starts to turn around on them, so militants intentionally get themselves killed (or other Palestinians killed), then Palestinians whine about how "bloodthirsty" the Israelis are, and use it as "justification" to kill more people.'
I specifically said that it was something that I did not say. "You didn't deny it strenuously enough" has got to be one of the lamest excuses I have ever seen.
When you put things in quotes and attrubute them to me please quote them accurately and don't lie. After all, the words are there on the thread for anyone to see how you chose to misrepresent me. Let me ask you a simple question. Are all Palestinians terrorists? Yes or no?
