Who started both World Wars?

[Skeptic]

I've seen German porn movies from the 60's, at some midnight movie events. We've got nothing that compares to it.

Ve musst haf zex, it's in zie skript!

 

[9/11-investigator]

This is the last text by SR, about Hitlers war aims in 1939:

http://www.vorkriegsgeschichte.de/content/view/36/53/

Die vorherrschende Historikermeinung in Deutschland geht davon aus, dass Hitler einen lang gehegten und seit 1933 vorbereiteten Langzeitplan für einen Eroberungs- und Vernichtungskrieg um „Lebensraum im Osten“ hatte. Manche Historiker sprechen auch von einem Rassen- und Vernichtungskrieg.

The standard story is that Hitler was implementing an old plan of acquiring 'Lebensraum' and intended a 'race war and war of destruction'. And that Danzig was merely a pretext. To back this thesis up historians point to Mein Kampf (1924).

Doch es muss schon zu denken geben, dass Hitler seine Lebensraum-Vorstellungen zwischen „Mein Kampf“ im Jahre 1924 und seiner im Hoßbach-Protokoll überlieferten Ansprache von 1937 bereits deutlich auf Österreich und die Tschechei reduziert hat. Beides war 1939 schon „erledigt“.

The original Lebensraum theory did NOT entail acquiring as much territory as possible but territory that could be populated with German farmers (in contrast to British invaders who wanted every piece of land they could get).
SR states that Hitler abandoned his Lebensraum idea and that by 1937 basically ebverybody was 'Heim ins Reich'. SZ comes with a 10 point counter theory:

1) Hitler's army was not equiped for a war in Russia, although he had years of preparation if he indeed had intended to colonize Russia.
2) Hitler gave the German city of Oderberg to the Poles to appease them. Does not match with the Lebensraum theory.
3) The Karpato-Ukraine offered voluntarily that it would become a German protectorate. Hitler declined the favour. It would have given him a foothold for Lebensraum expansion in the Ukraine.
4) As late as August 1939 he was urging people from Danzig to calm down as a clear indication that he was not heating the controversy up.
5) Even after Hitler had the non-agression pact in his pocket, he postponed the attack 3 times in order to gain time for negotiations, even after the Wehrmacht was fully mobilized.
6) From recorded conversations it becomes clear that Hitler had no concept what to do with Poland after he would have captured it.
7) After Hitler completed the Polish campaign successfully he offered peace to Britain and France including a complete withdrawal of Poland except for Danzig and a corridor. Completely incompatible with any Lebensraum philosophy.
8) In 1940 Hitler toke German Ukrainians 'Heim ins Reich'. Does not make sense with any Lebensraum plans.
9) After the French campaign Hitler reduced his armaments production with 1/3. Incompatible with a planned war against Russia.
10) Likewise 35 divisions were dissolved

SR concludes:

So ist zu schließen, daß die Gründe für den deutschen Feldzug gegen Polen und damit auch für den Beginn des Zweiten Weltkriegs doch eher der konkreten Lage im Herbst 1939 mit den drei ungelösten deutsch-polnischen Problemen als einem hitlerschen Gesamtkonzept entsprungen sind.

The war against Poland was caused by problems that were urgent at the time (Danzig, corridor, persecution of German minorities) and had nothing to do with Lebensraum.

So why did Hitler attack the USSR if not for Lebensraum?

First of all, SR comes to the same conclusion as Buchanan as to why this Polish campaign ended in a world war:

Dass aus dem Polenkrieg dann doch ein Weltkrieg wurde, verdanken wir in erster Linie England. Als Deutschland England 1939/40 mehrmals vorgeschlagen hatte, den Krieg mit einem Frieden zu beenden, bei dem Deutschland Polen freigeben und nur das ohnehin deutsche Danzig und den weitgehend deutsch bewohnten Korridor behalten wollte, hat England auf der Fortsetzung des Kriegs bestanden.

Even after the victory in Poland, Germany offered peace to Britain (who had declared war on Germany ostensibly because of the war in Poland) on reasonable terms: complete withdrawal from Poland except Danzig and the corridor.

Britain refused peace. Now Germany was confronted with the question what Russia would do; would it switch sides and become Allies with Britain, just like it was an Allie during WW1?

Hitlers Absicht, die Sowjetunion anzugreifen, entstand dann in einer ganz konkreten Lage. Im Juni 1940 annektierten die Sowjets Bessarabien und die Nordbukowina. Damit näherten sie sich bedrohlich den rumänischen Erdölquellen, aus denen Deutschland zu einem großen Teil versorgt wurde

The Soviets annexed territory in close proximity of the Romanian oilfields on which Germany depended for a large extend. Germany tried to invite Russia to the existing alliance Germany-Italy-Japan in september 1940. Molotov came to Berlin and came with new demands:

Dazu forderte er folgende Staaten und Gewässer für die Sowjetunion: Finnland, die Donau, Rumänien, Ungarn, Bulgarien, die Türkei mit dem Schwarzmeer-Ausgang, Iran, Griechenland, Jugoslawien, die Ostseeausgänge und Spitzbergen. Da die Sowjets inzwischen alle Staaten, die 1939 ihrer Interessensphäre zugesprochen worden waren, annektiert hatten, musste die deutsche Seite davon ausgehen, dass die Sowjetunion nun ebenfalls beabsichtigte, diese hier genannten Staaten zu unterwerfen.

The USSR meanwhile had occupied all the territory of it's sphere of influence as agreed in the Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement. It was to be assumed that the USSR would also invade all the territory of the new 'sphere of influence': Finland, Danube area, Rumania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Turkey, Iran, Greece, Jugoslavia, Ostsee exits, Spitsbergen (yes, we are still talking about America's later noble allie here). this would have been the consequences if Molotov would have his way:

Das hätte Deutschland seiner Rohstofflieferanten, seiner Handelspartner in Süd-Osteuropa und seiner Bewegungsfreiheit in der Ostsee beraubt, und den Kommunismus bis zu den Grenzen Italiens und Deutschlands vorgelassen.

Germany would have been stripped of supplies deliveries, trade partners in SE-Europe, restricted movement in the Ostsea and communism would have been allowed to border Germany and Italy.

In the meantime the USSR moved to realize it's intensions...

Hitler, der mit dem geplanten neuerlichen Pakt mit Stalin eigentlich Großbritannien zu einem schon mehrfach angebotenen Frieden bringen wollte, sah sich plötzlich der Gefahr einer britisch-russischen Zange ausgesetzt. Seine Befürchtungen in dieser Richtung wuchsen vom Spätherbst 1940 mit dem Eintreffen immer neuer Nachrichten vom weiteren Aufmarsch der Roten Armee, den er selbst in einem Gespräch mit dem rumänischen Staatschef Antonescu als "den größten Aufmarsch der Geschichte" bezeichnete.

Hitler had intended to force Britain to peace with his pact with Russia. But he had to fear that Russia had different intensions and was busy with troops displacements of the Red Army.

This was the reason why Hitler attacked the USSR: to prevent being overrun by Stalin, it was the flight forward. It had nothing to do with acquiring 'Lebensraum'.

Need to investigate if this explanation is similar to Suvurov's Icebreaker Theory

 

[9/11-investigator]

I wouldn't say that. I think 20 years from now, on whatever medium does the job of forums then, there's going to be some far-right extremist spamming skeptic sites, denying holocaust, and pointing to 9/11's 'blog' as a source.

Why 20 years from now? The 911-blog has 50,000 hits since it's 18 months existence (thanks to google, whatreallyhappened, iamthewitness and henrymakow in that order). Ca. 10% (5000) are related to approaching the blog from webmail. That means people who really read the blog and send it to friends.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Why 20 years from now? The 911-blog has 50,000 hits since it's 18 months existence (thanks to google, whatreallyhappened, iamthewitness and henrymakow in that order). Ca. 10% (5000) are related to approaching the blog from webmail. That means people who really read the blog and send it to friends.

It's a good thing reality is determined by vote then, isn't it?

 

[Mirrorglass]

Because I'm pessimistic, and think that there will still be a marginal far-right movement lurking over the internet in 20 years, and the fact that the US is still going strong won't be enough to stop them from using your ramblings as a source to support the opinions they already have.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Is this the same blog nein11 is going to post his Holocaust denial stuff on? If so, I could think of a couple of persons who'd be interested.

That's why you wanted the url right? Ddt, the inbread bolshevik who would love to see people go to jail with the 'wrong opinions'.

But there is not going to be such a blog any time soon, too much work and not enough overview yet on the subject. I am happy if I can finish this WW-blog before the summer ends. And indeed too risky. Let's wait first how the legal situation in the Netherlands will develop. I trust Rutte/Nicolai more than Wilders, the self-declared FOS-champ (Islam only, some restrictions apply) in this respect.

For me the H-word has been reduced to the necessity to conduct new soil scanning tests in Treblinka. That will determine whether the H-word happened or not.

 

[9/11-investigator]

It's a good thing reality is determined by vote then, isn't it?

History is made by tiny but determined minorities, not by vote.

Watch it Gawdzilla, enemy at 3 o'clock.

 

[MG1962]

2) Hitler gave the German city of Oderberg to the Poles to appease them. Does not match with the Lebensraum theory.

Ya know, after this comment I think I am going to ignore this thread. Your clearly have no clue, and rely of sources that are even worse

Neither SR or you as his supporter seems to realise the Oderberg that Hitler gave to the Poles was not a German city, but a Czech city captured by them from Poland in 1919

Here is an original newspaper report

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9C04E2D8113BEE3ABC4F51DFB7668382609EDE

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

History is made by tiny but determined minorities, not by vote.

I said "reality", not "history". Have someone read this to you if you're having trouble with the long words.

Watch it Gawdzilla, enemy at 3 o'clock.

That gives me several hours.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Ya know, after this comment I think I am going to ignore this thread. Your clearly have no clue, and rely of sources that are even worse

Neither SR or you as his supporter seems to realise the Oderberg that Hitler gave to the Poles was not a German city, but a Czech city captured by them from Poland in 1919

Here is an original newspaper report

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9C04E2D8113BEE3ABC4F51DFB7668382609EDE

MG1962 pretends here that he knew about Oderberg from the top of his head, rather than sneakingly googling his ''knowledge' up first. During his little google adventure MG1962 run into this NYT article where he reads: "Oderberg captured by Czechs from Poles". MG1962 concludes, "see it was Czech al along!". MG1962 touchingly failes to realize that Czecho-Slovakia was an artifical state created on the design board of Versailles a year earlier (the misfit Czecho-Slovakia imploded at the first opportunity).

What I understand after a quick scan is the Oderberg was a town near the German-Czech-Polish border, and probably was a town with mixed population. The German name Oderberg is centuries old.

http://www.mesto-bohumin.cz/en/about-town/history/

This document is supposed to be the oldest writing of German origin for Bohumin – Oderberg, therefrom can be assumed that Bohumin was colonized by German settlers.

And be honest MG, do you really think that you can outsmart a German General-Major on German history?

 

[9/11-investigator]

Deafening silence regarding post #1662 and more specific:

7) After Hitler completed the Polish campaign successfully he offered peace to Britain and France including a complete withdrawal of Poland except for Danzig and a corridor.

Is there somebody here who understands what this means for the topic of this thread, namely who started WW2?

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Is there somebody here who understands what this means for the topic of this thread, namely who started WW2?

Oh! Oh! I know, I know! Pick me!

*hands behind back, looking at ceiling*
Ahem. It means that Hitler wanted to consolidate his gains in the east before taking over the rest of Europe and thought England and France were really really stupid.

 

[dtugg]

Hey nazi piece of crap, how badly does it suck for you that your heroes lost the war? And it's really pathetic how you're backing Hitler 65 years after the fact. According to your evil ideology the fact that they lost proves that they deserved to lose, yes? And yet you still love your precious Fuhrer.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Oh! Oh! I know, I know! Pick me!

*hands behind back, looking at ceiling*
Ahem. It means that Hitler wanted to consolidate his gains in the east before taking over the rest of Europe and thought England and France were really really stupid.

Nobody threatened the 'gains' Germany had made in Poland.
So why did he offer a withdrawal from Poland?
Answer: he was not interested in Poland but wanted Danzig and the corridor in exchange for peace.

Interesting question: can somebody confirm or refute that Hitler had indeed made this peace offer to France and Britain as the General-Major claims?

 

[ddt]

Ya know, after this comment I think I am going to ignore this thread. Your clearly have no clue, and rely of sources that are even worse

Neither SR or you as his supporter seems to realise the Oderberg that Hitler gave to the Poles was not a German city, but a Czech city captured by them from Poland in 1919

Oh, this is about the Teschen area. No wonder here that that tidbit got "lost" in nein11's rendering. But to be fair to Schultze-Rhonhof, he mentions it was Czech, though adding that the population was mainly German.

I don't see the relevance of the argument, though. Both Czechia and Poland were on Hitler's todo-list, so he'd capture them anyhow (and when he did, Teschen was incorporated into Germany).

And I've always been amazed at the amount of redrawing of the map of Central/Eastern Europe in the years 1935-1941, all "arbitrated" by Nazi Germany. Nearly as much as in the preceding century. I guess from Germany's point of view, the relevance was to show it was again the top dog and could decide about its neighbours. But then, they were all its allies, and some of them really got the short stick. Slovakia lost the Karpatho-Ukraine and a strip of land along its southern border to Hungary. Romania lost about half of its territory - Transsylvania to Hungary and Bessarabia to the Soviet Union.

 

[ddt]

Nobody threatened the 'gains' Germany had made in Poland.
So why did he offer a withdrawal from Poland?
Answer: he was not interested in Poland but wanted Danzig and the corridor in exchange for peace.

Interesting question: can somebody confirm or refute that Hitler had indeed made this peace offer to France and Britain as the General-Major claims?

Eccl. 1:15: "what is lacking cannot be counted."

It's nobody's business to refute that Hitler made this offer. It's up to you to give the evidence.

 

[ddt]

That's why you wanted the url right? Ddt, the inbread bolshevik who would love to see people go to jail with the 'wrong opinions'.

Don't you want to be a martyr for the cause?

Jail? Improbable. But I'd be happy if your family, friends, employer and clients knew you are an unreconstructed antisemite and history falsifier.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Nobody threatened the 'gains' Germany had made in Poland.
So why did he offer a withdrawal from Poland?
Answer: he was not interested in Poland but wanted Danzig and the corridor in exchange for peace.

Interesting question: can somebody confirm or refute that Hitler had indeed made this peace offer to France and Britain as the General-Major claims?

Only a fool would trust a liar like Hitler. He said "I have no further territorial ambitions in Europe" shortly before the war. Lying again. And we know this from the Nasties own documents. So, do you trust a liar?

 

[9/11-investigator]

Eccl. 1:15: "what is lacking cannot be counted."

It's nobody's business to refute that Hitler made this offer. It's up to you to give the evidence.

I learned it only today. Now let's see... google-google...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/invasion_poland_01.shtml

The article ends as follows:

Warsaw bravely held out until 27 September, but after enduring 18 days of continuous bombing finally surrendered at 2.00pm that afternoon. Germany had gained a swift victory, but not the end of the war. Britain and France refused to accept Hitler's peace offer. His gamble had failed, and Poland had become the first battleground of World War Two.

Unfortunately this article of British origin fails to mention the terms of the peace Hitler had on offer. I wonder why? So ddt, what do you think Hitler had on offer in exchange for peace? Maybe S-R was right after all? That would change the entire picture, wouldn't it?

But then again, this is a British article, written by a Bradley Lightbody, an Anglo.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The peace offer was published. Everybody got a good laugh out of it.