Moderated What's wrong with porn?

[Southwind17]

I would. Why not?

Of course. If I liked her, none of that would matter at all.

Risk of disease? Knowing that your girl has low esteem and sees sex as a loveless act?

 

[HansMustermann]

That seems to me like begging no less than two questions.

"Low self esteem"... how do you judge that anyway, without involving postulates or circular logic? Now I haven't had the honour of knowing any of those fine girls in person, but all the interviews and posts I've seen don't exactly strike me as showing any kind of emo/goth tendencies.

"sees sex as a loveless act"... because blimey, obviously doing something at work totally makes it a thankless mechanical chore even in your free time. Like totally nobody who works as a programmer 8 hours a day, would ever code open-source stuff at home too. Or like nobody who's a kindergarten employee could ever love raising their own child ever again. And obviously nobody who's a mechanic at work, could ever love tuning their own car after work again.

That last paragraph was sarcasm, btw, in case it's hard to tell.

 

[Southwind17]

That seems to me like begging no less than two questions.

"Low self esteem"... how do you judge that anyway, without involving postulates or circular logic? Now I haven't had the honour of knowing any of those fine girls in person, but all the interviews and posts I've seen don't exactly strike me as showing any kind of emo/goth tendencies.

If you were to ask a representative sample of "regular" women, i.e. those who would detest the idea of them of being a porn actress, what proportion, approximately, do you think (rightly or wrongly) would claim that they would have to have very low self-esteem to entertain such vocation?

"sees sex as a loveless act"... because blimey, obviously doing something at work totally makes it a thankless mechanical chore even in your free time. Like totally nobody who works as a programmer 8 hours a day, would ever code open-source stuff at home too ... And obviously nobody who's a mechanic at work, could ever love tuning their own car after work again.

What proportion of the general population do you think fall into this category? BTW - you'll note I've removed the kindergarten example, which is blatantly a straw man.
So you believe that "making love" means the same thing to your girl, who has just come home from being abused byhaving sex with a dozen John Does, as it does to most other "monogamous" women? It's not a case of whether or not somebody is prepared or even happy to do something in their own time because they do it for a living, it's a question of what it then means to them, and you, of couse. So I don't think it's fair to compare a car mechanic with a porn actress in this context. A car mechanic fixes his own car of an evening because it needs fixing, just like those he gets paid to fix. The motivations for having sex in front of a camera and with your fella when you get home are very different. Don't you think the intimacy and selectivity of sex with your partner would be diminished if your partner was a porn actress?

 

[JFrankA]

If you were to ask a representative sample of "regular" women, i.e. those who would detest the idea of them of being a porn actress, what proportion, approximately, do you think (rightly or wrongly) would claim that they would have to have very low self-esteem to entertain such vocation?

What proportion of the general population do you think fall into this category? BTW - you'll note I've removed the kindergarten example, which is blatantly a straw man.

Woah woah woah.

You are making some serious assumptions, there, pardner.

I have found that a lot of people who do this have a range of low to very high self esteem. This includes women who act in porn or women who go to a lot swing parties. In fact, most of the women I've met have high self esteem and enjoy having sex and love looking good.

And I love how you assume that "regular women" are those who "who would detest the idea of them of being a porn actress". Simply your view.

So you believe that "making love" means the same thing to your girl, who has just come home from being abused byhaving sex with a dozen John Does, as it does to most other "monogamous" women? It's not a case of whether or not somebody is prepared or even happy to do something in their own time because they do it for a living, it's a question of what it then means to them, and you, of couse. So I don't think it's fair to compare a car mechanic with a porn actress in this context. A car mechanic fixes his own car of an evening because it needs fixing, just like those he gets paid to fix. The motivations for having sex in front of a camera and with your fella when you get home are very different. Don't you think the intimacy and selectivity of sex with your partner would be diminished if your partner was a porn actress?

Nope. It wouldn't be diminished at all.

My girl has sex with me because it's more than just the physical act. Sex between my girl and me has emotion mixed with it: We know each other, we trust each other, we understand each other, we have history, memories, etc, and those things are the basis for the intimacy. Not the sex. The sex is just icing on the cake.

The way I see it is this: if she is having sex with a bunch of guys, and even if there is one guy who is more "enhanced" and maybe better in bed than me, but she still comes home to me and wants me and trusts me and loves me, then the sex with those other people mean NOTHING. I've done more than "bagged" her. I've done more than being her work partner. She wants me and needs me emotionally.

I am confident enough in myself to know that my girl, no matter who she goes to bed with, will always want me more. No matter what. And it's not because of who is better or what the frequency is, it's because the basic emotional relationship is stronger.

It doesn't diminish it, it enhances it.

 

[BenBurch]

If porn and deviant sex lead to criminality, I'd be in jail now.

 

[BenBurch]

Risk of disease? Knowing that your girl has low esteem and sees sex as a loveless act?

A. Film workers have a much lower STD rate than the public at large. Have to. Mandatory testing on a very regular basis means that its not allowed into that population.

B. I think you have a very warped view of the people who make porn. I know many of these people, though mostly those from over a generation ago, and I don't think any of them lost the ability to love, and I don't think I knew more of them with low self esteem there than anywhere else I have been - though if you are really dysfunctional and cannot hold a day job you likely still can feed yourself making porn loops. Sure you can point to tragic tales of people who came into the business as emotional wrecks and who didn't end up in a good place, but I think they would have been dashed on the shoals of life no matter what seas they sailed.

 

[Southwind17]

Woah woah woah.
You are making some serious assumptions, there, pardner.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm guessing, admittedly, but I'm asking you what you know/think. which you've answered thus:

I have found that a lot of people who do this have a range of low to very high self esteem. This includes women who act in porn or women who go to a lot swing parties. In fact, most of the women I've met have high self esteem and enjoy having sex and love looking good.

And I love how you assume that "regular women" are those who "who would detest the idea of them of being a porn actress". Simply your view.

Actually, my view is based on much more than simple assumption. It's based on a pretty relible belief that I've never met a woman who's a porn actress, and I've met many women across a good cross section of society. Don't you agree that most women taken from a cross section of society would deplore the idea of being a porn actress?

Nope. It wouldn't be diminished at all.

Well I'm pretty sure mine would. I guess we have different values.

A. Film workers have a much lower STD rate than the public at large. Have to. Mandatory testing on a very regular basis means that its not allowed into that population.

I realize that, but a responsible person having regular sex with a single partner (as opposed to with "the public at large") must surely be at less risk than a porn actress having sex with many men who are tested on a regular basis. The very fact that testing on a regular basis is deemed necessary is proof that they're high risk.

B. I think you have a very warped view of the people who make porn. I know many of these people, though mostly those from over a generation ago, and I don't think any of them lost the ability to love, and I don't think I knew more of them with low self esteem there than anywhere else I have been - though if you are really dysfunctional and cannot hold a day job you likely still can feed yourself making porn loops. Sure you can point to tragic tales of people who came into the business as emotional wrecks and who didn't end up in a good place, but I think they would have been dashed on the shoals of life no matter what seas they sailed.

So you'd just as happily marry a porn actress as any other woman, everything else being equal, right? And a regular hooker? Or do you see a fundamental difference?

 

[BenBurch]

...
I realize that, but a responsible person having regular sex with a single partner (as opposed to with "the public at large") must surely be at less risk than a porn actress having sex with many men who are tested on a regular basis. The very fact that testing on a regular basis is deemed necessary is proof that they're high risk.

How many people actually have monogamous marriages? I think the numbers I have seen show that many, many people ought to be tested who are not. Herpes-II is in 24.63% of the population (all ages.)

So you'd just as happily marry a porn actress as any other woman, everything else being equal, right? And a regular hooker? Or do you see a fundamental difference?

I see no difference.

 

[JFrankA]

Actually, my view is based on much more than simple assumption. It's based on a pretty relible belief that I've never met a woman who's a porn actress, and I've met many women across a good cross section of society. Don't you agree that most women taken from a cross section of society would deplore the idea of being a porn actress?

Honestly, I'm not even going to guess one way or the other. It's too general to guess. For example, I know a couple of very fundamentally religious people who have admitted to me that they'd love to be feel like they can be "free enough" or even "brave enough" to do that, not because they "deplore the idea".

The point I'm making is that will not either agree nor disagree. I don't know, and I've been surprised by women (either thinking they would and don't and vice versa) so I won't even attempt a guess.

Well I'm pretty sure mine would. I guess we have different values.

Exactly. That's what make the world go around, accepting different ideas and values. My girl feels the same way I do, that's part of what makes her so special.

I realize that, but a responsible person having regular sex with a single partner (as opposed to with "the public at large") must surely be at less risk than a porn actress having sex with many men who are tested on a regular basis. The very fact that testing on a regular basis is deemed necessary is proof that they're high risk.

Would you feel the same way about someone working at a med lab or a hospital? There's a high risk of someone getting a disease if they works at a med lab or a hospital. Of course not, because they take precautions. So does the porn industry.

So you'd just as happily marry a porn actress as any other woman, everything else being equal, right? And a regular hooker?

Porn actress, hooker, stripper, I don't care because I love HER. She should matter to me and how we work and live and understand each other means more to me than her job.

Relationship is emotion, intelligence, acceptance of each other. Sex is icing on the cake. A cake isn't complete without the icing, but the icing is not the whole cake.

I'm sorry, you make it sound like the person you are supposed to be in love with, the relationship itself isn't as important as the sex. It's more important that she only has sex with you rather than what else she brings to the relationship.

I see that in a lot of people, and I'm sorry, it makes me very sad.

Or do you see a fundamental difference?

I don't understand what you're getting at here.

 

[HansMustermann]

If you were to ask a representative sample of "regular" women, i.e. those who would detest the idea of them of being a porn actress, what proportion, approximately, do you think (rightly or wrongly) would claim that they would have to have very low self-esteem to entertain such vocation?

I.e., you don't actually answer that question, you just present a stereotype from that whole _other_ segment of the population has about them.

By the same reasoning:

- gays are just heterosexual men who like to sin

- conversely, all who dislike homosexuality in any form or shape, are just trying to suppress their own homosexual instincts

- swedes are all blonde and sexy

- atheists are just a bunch of self-deluded people who still believe in God, but rebel against him

Etc.

No, seriously, for each of those there's a group of _other_ people who claims it. Just ask Yrreg about the last one, for example, he wrote a lot on that topic right on these boards.

Actually, my view is based on much more than simple assumption. It's based on a pretty relible belief that I've never met a woman who's a porn actress, and I've met many women across a good cross section of society. Don't you agree that most women taken from a cross section of society would deplore the idea of being a porn actress?

Actually it seems to me like it says it all, when you say what I emphasized above. You just have no data to make that claim. You don't know whether they have good or bad self esteem or just about average. But somehow that someone else would think that about them, damn, then it must be true

What proportion of the general population do you think fall into this category? BTW - you'll note I've removed the kindergarten example, which is blatantly a straw man.
So you believe that "making love" means the same thing to your girl, who has just come home from being abused byhaving sex with a dozen John Does, as it does to most other "monogamous" women? It's not a case of whether or not somebody is prepared or even happy to do something in their own time because they do it for a living, it's a question of what it then means to them, and you, of couse. So I don't think it's fair to compare a car mechanic with a porn actress in this context. A car mechanic fixes his own car of an evening because it needs fixing, just like those he gets paid to fix. The motivations for having sex in front of a camera and with your fella when you get home are very different. Don't you think the intimacy and selectivity of sex with your partner would be diminished if your partner was a porn actress?

As opposed to... what? The millions of Eastern European and Asian women imported into Western Europe alone, who are all into "making love" and being good wives until they got their permanent residence? As opposed who those who do it just because they couldn't afford to be single mothers and/or think that their child needs a father for some reason or another? Or just because what would Jahweh/their congregation/mom's friends think about them if they divorced? Etc. Do you think love even enters the equation for most of those?

And generally, _if_ you think the spark and love is all intact for ever, you might be in a bit of a nasty surprise sooner or later.

And if not, what do you propose? That marriages automatically come with a 4 year expiration like some congress bills, and are only renewed if the two take a genuine love test?

It seems to me like for the vast majority of people love and sex are two notions which only incidentally may or may not have anything to do with each other.

Or since you hopped on the idea of what does doing it for a job do to her idea of sex, how about this: an estimated 12% of women never get an orgasm, and 75% don't get one during intercourse. Don't you think that, I dunno, after some guy flailed and sweated all over her without it doing anything for her... again... for the 1000'th time, in fact... something might change in her attitude about sex anyway? I'd say that if a woman's taking a mechanical chore view of sex is a problem, then 75% of us are screwed anyway, some just don't realize it.

Also, here's what you miss: a car mechanic might spend hours tuning a perfectly good car in the evening, or a programmer might spend his other 8 hours awake writing a Linux driver, because that's the kind of thing they like and that's the kind of reason they picked that job in the first place.

 

[Southwind17]

How many people actually have monogamous marriages?

I don't know, but that was the comparison I was drawing, because it applies to me, and I can, therefore, relate to it well.

I think the numbers I have seen show that many, many people ought to be tested who are not. Herpes-II is in 24.63% of the population (all ages.)

But not necessarily across all social groups, presumably.

I see no difference.

You omitted to answer the first two questions, other than by inference.

Honestly, I'm not even going to guess one way or the other. It's too general to guess. For example, I know a couple of very fundamentally religious people who have admitted to me that they'd love to be feel like they can be "free enough" or even "brave enough" to do that, not because they "deplore the idea".

I don't really see that as a very relevant anecdote, but it's interesting you have absolutely no idea.

Would you feel the same way about someone working at a med lab or a hospital? There's a high risk of someone getting a disease if they works at a med lab or a hospital. Of course not, because they take precautions. So does the porn industry.

Persoanlly, I see the type of diseases, the probable testing regime and the justification for exposing myself to such risks as significant differentiators.

Porn actress, hooker, stripper, I don't care because I love HER. She should matter to me and how we work and live and understand each other means more to me than her job.
Relationship is emotion, intelligence, acceptance of each other. Sex is icing on the cake. A cake isn't complete without the icing, but the icing is not the whole cake.
I'm sorry, you make it sound like the person you are supposed to be in love with, the relationship itself isn't as important as the sex. It's more important that she only has sex with you rather than what else she brings to the relationship.
I see that in a lot of people, and I'm sorry, it makes me very sad.

I think you've misunderstood me. I'm in no way suggesting that sex should be the overriding factor in a normal relationship (by which I mean a relationship where sex is an important aspect). On the contrary. But it's what one partner having sex with other people as a vocation means to the value of the relationship that concerns me. I have to say, I honestly don't think anybody who I know well, male or female, would entertain their partner being a porn actor for one second, and I know a lot of people well. I guess we're just from very different backgrounds that have influenced our views. I like to think of myself as very liberal. I think you must be extremely liberal and way different from the general populace as regards this matter.

I don't understand what you're getting at here.

Porn actress vs. regular hooker. But you've answered it above.

 

[BenBurch]

I've had girlfriends who were escorts. Not ex-escorts, either. Never bothered me. One teaches at a local school district now, and the other is likely to be a professor some day, if she ever stops accumulating degrees. I think I answered both the questions you posed to me, which ones did I miss?

 

[Nosi]

What's wrong with porn is that all those sites are so slow. Nothing kills an erection like watching "Buffering... 2%" for 10 minutes for a 20 second clip

Your answer is a reputable bittorrent site. They are as well screened as the ahem porn sites and they will have the goods waiting for you when you get home from work.

 

[fuelair]

If you were to ask a representative sample of "regular" women, i.e. those who would detest the idea of them of being a porn actress, what proportion, approximately, do you think (rightly or wrongly) would claim that they would have to have very low self-esteem to entertain such vocation?


What proportion of the general population do you think fall into this category? BTW - you'll note I've removed the kindergarten example, which is blatantly a straw man.
So you believe that "making love" means the same thing to your girl, who has just come home from being abused byhaving sex with a dozen John Does, as it does to most other "monogamous" women? It's not a case of whether or not somebody is prepared or even happy to do something in their own time because they do it for a living, it's a question of what it then means to them, and you, of couse. So I don't think it's fair to compare a car mechanic with a porn actress in this context. A car mechanic fixes his own car of an evening because it needs fixing, just like those he gets paid to fix. The motivations for having sex in front of a camera and with your fella when you get home are very different. Don't you think the intimacy and selectivity of sex with your partner would be diminished if your partner was a porn actress?

And, of course, your beliefs and feelings must be matched by everyone else because they are so very clear to you. I do not mean that offensively (in this case) because the idea that other people can function quite happily with feelings, motives, drives, emotions that are not remotely the same as yours is a difficult concept. But it is reality - and if you diminish others because theirs are different from yours, they certainly have the right to diminish you. If you are religious (I'm not but these are pretty good to live by rules), keep in mind: A)Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. AND B) Do not cast out the mote in another's eye until you have removed the beam from your own.

 

[Nosi]

Just like Friends and Sex in the City are not accurate portrayals of life in the "real world". Roseanne or perhaps Grace Under Fire would be far closer to what most Americans experience.

If you want a real accurate portrayal of sex I suggest Married With Children

I once saw a porno blooper reel. It was the funniest thing I ever saw. All the things that don't end up in the films end up on the blooper reels. The actresses and actors cracking up while trying to say their lines, cutting farts at the VERY WRONG MOMENTS, getting uncontrollable cases of the giggles. Then there there were the salutes that wouldn't happen.

Yes, according to the actors, men had a harder time with equipment failure. Women could use astroglide and fake it, men, they had to 'stand and deliver' and sometimes, it wouldn't stand. Hense...several funnies.

Then there was the puppet.

 

[fuelair]

I don't know, but that was the comparison I was drawing, because it applies to me, and I can, therefore, relate to it well.


.

And, here, you make my point.

 

[Nosi]

Porn per se probably not but the standards of the porn industry should be a matter of concern.

The 'mainstream' porn industry looks pretty darn plastic I'd agree, but there are a lot of subtypes of porn that would really give you an of an education on what turns different people on. There are movies/pics that appeal to the strictly you name it. Some of those actresses look like they walked off the street, others the funhouse.

 

[Orangem]

The title says it all. I'm interested to hear people's views, particularly justifications for/against, including details of any scientific and empirical evidence against porn.

Who's first?

It's not scentific but it's fact:

- My sex life after being introduced to porn has greatly improved.

- When either myself or my partner watch TOO MUCH porn = quality of sex takes a drop.

 

[JFrankA]

I don't really see that as a very relevant anecdote, but it's interesting you have absolutely no idea.

What I am saying is that people will surprise you. You admitted yourself you're going on assumption and beliefs. I am not going on either. In fact, I wouldn't even hazard a guess as to what gender thinks generally about that. I've met too many women and by my experience it runs the entire spectrum. That's completely different than saying that I have absolutely no idea.

Persoanlly, I see the type of diseases, the probable testing regime and the justification for exposing myself to such risks as significant differentiators.

For you. Maybe. That's fine. For many many others, it's not a big deal.

I think you've misunderstood me. I'm in no way suggesting that sex should be the overriding factor in a normal relationship (by which I mean a relationship where sex is an important aspect). On the contrary. But it's what one partner having sex with other people as a vocation means to the value of the relationship that concerns me.

To me, you are saying that a value in a relationship goes down if that person's job is to have sex with others. I tend to think that a value in a relationship doesn't change no matter what that person's job is. Even if it is a sexual job. In my view, doesn't matter how many or who, what matters is that I give her the emotional support she needs.

Let me put it this way.

If my girl's job requires her to have sex with twenty guys, and they are all nice and they are all good lovers and better endowed, etc, etc. They make her have a "really good time" a lot. Now she comes home, and she still wants sex with me not because it's her job but because she wants to, she needs to, then those twenty guys can't give her what she really needs. Only I can. And it's more than sex. That is why for me it doesn't diminish a thing in our relationship.

I have to say, I honestly don't think anybody who I know well, male or female, would entertain their partner being a porn actor for one second, and I know a lot of people well. I guess we're just from very different backgrounds that have influenced our views. I like to think of myself as very liberal. I think you must be extremely liberal and way different from the general populace as regards this matter.

My girlfriend loves the fact I make porn. Now all my work is behind the camera, but my girl has said to me that she would love to watch me doing porn as an actor.

It has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative. I know plenty of conservative people who are in porno and a lot more who attend swing parties.

Porn actress vs. regular hooker. But you've answered it above.

Wouldn't matter to me if she was a prostitute or a stripper or a porn actress. I fell in love with my girl for who she is. What she does to make a living doesn't matter. As long as she was safe and happy, I'm fine with whatever
job she chooses and will support her.

That's a relationship. Not the idea of "sex only with me or the relationship is off".

 

[aviolet4u]

It just goes to show too much of one thing isn't good. I mean how long has internet access been available to us? Since the early 90's? You have good and bad out there. I'm not saying there are sexual addicts/deviants in here but would this help their case? I was in a college computer lab and there were maybe 10-12 students typing up reports and printing them out in that small room. I turn around behind me and there is a boy looking at 2 people having sex behind me. He is watching porn shamelessly even though there are other students walking around him. Has it just become so normal? How will this media access availability affect society down the road?