Moderated What's wrong with porn?

[JFrankA]

Yeah - how does one go about getting a job like that anyway?

You do what you love.

 

[sugarb]

Much of the porn that I'm accustomed to seeing (youporn.com, which I admit is varied), involves one or a number of men performing very explicit sexual acts on women "on the man's/men's terms", by which I mean it seems deliberately staged to give the impression of dominance and submission by man(en) and woman respectively. This commonly extends to the appearance of the woman being abused (I don't mean physically, as in violently, but more doing things that are intended to surprise if not shock the viewer), even though, in many cases, the woman gives the impression of enjoyment, or is indeed enjoying it. Interestingly, it seems that the more "extreme" uploads (which usually correspond with acts that I would say lean more towards depravity than the other way) show both the highest number of viewings and ratings by viewers.

This accounts for my not having much respect for porn actresses - the seeming fact that many seem prepared to be portrayed as something almost inhuman; there for the mere use and abuse by a bunch of guys looking to humiliate, but that, evidently, most viewers (certainly at youporn) prefer to see!

From what you've written above I guess this type of porn is different from that in which you're involved, and logically that could well account fo our somewhat polar views.

I'll try to explain my more lenient feeling towards the male "actors" and crew later when I have time (both to analyse and report!). Got to dash right now.

(you'll excuse me for snipping your post so callously - I just wanted to keep my post size down. )

Hello, Southwind17. Can I ask you a question then? How do you feel about women who *are* submissive? Women who *do* need, crave, and enjoy things that you seem to find demeaning or abusive? Women who really cannot respect as a partner a man that is NOT dominant? Because these things aren't how we feel society is or should be, these are things that are a culmination of our own emotional needs and responses to things others may feel is abuse. But I promise you that it is not. Frankly, I'd prefer to go ahead and die than be forced to live as anything other than what I am, simply because perhaps a majority of people feel it is abnormal or wrong.

So, I guess what I am asking is, why do you have no respect for actresses who are willing to portray roles that some people actually live daily? Sure it isn't everyone's cup of tea, but...maybe it is cliche to say...there is a lot of power in submission. Maybe that doesn't make sense to you...but...a lot of things don't make sense to me either. Like when people are driven by money, or require drugs to get through the day, or alcohol. A lot of things people do doesn't make sense to me. But I hope you can believe me when I say that submission really doesn't equal abuse. It really doesn't. I know that's the complaint many women have about porn, but...there is a difference between being a submissive willingly submitting (and yes, we *like* what is done to us), and something like rape portrayals, which involve forced and involuntary submission. I would understand better, perhaps, if what had bothered you most was pornography portraying rapes. But...submissives *do* enjoy the things they subject themselves to. In real life. So it would be crazy for those who make pornography to portray it any other way.

And by the way, that type of porn doesn't only attract male viewers who wish they could be that guy, but it attracts female viewers and male submissives who enjoying being with someone *like* that guy.

Am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

 

[Southwind17]

You are quite obviously extremely naive about what exists in reality.

Jeez - I tried to choose my words carefully to avoid this type of response, so either I failed in that or my introspection goggles are fogged up big time. Let's try to find out which, sticking with carefully chosen words so far as possible:
So, SkeptiChick, what essential examples can you give of physical dominance of females over males within the public domain?

And despite not wanting to "come across as sounding male chauvinistic" (note the spelling), you've not only done that, but shown yourself to be rather sexist as well.

Sorry - fat phalanges (or is that fillanjeez)! Male chauvinistic/sexist - is there a difference?!

 

[JFrankA]

Jeez - I tried to choose my words carefully to avoid this type of response, so either I failed in that or my introspection goggles are fogged up big time. Let's try to find out which, sticking with carefully chosen words so far as possible:
So, SkeptiChick, what essential examples can you give of physical dominance of females over males within the public domain?

Dude. A friendly piece of advice from a Dominate male:

Don't ever, ever piss off a submissive female. Just....don't. Ever. Trust me on this... *bows graciously to both SkeptiChick and Sugarb*

And by the way, what does "public domain" have to do with this? Why is that so important? That's like saying that because your free shirt has no sleeves, all shirts don't have sleeve.

I'm not sure but I think that's called the "Black Swan" syndrome...

 

[Drudgewire]

Honestly JFA I don't see it working like this. I hope this doesn't come across as sounding male chauvenistic, but anything that portrays females as dominant over males (it doesn't have to be porn - it can be anything involving physicality)(Power Puff Girls?!) just doesn't cut it with me. I suppose that's because, in reality, it's essentially non-existent (well, at least in the public domain), and my ability to suspend disbelief to the extent that I can appreciate and enjoy a fictitious scenario seems to be very limited!

The Power Puff Girls are freakin' awesome and that's all I have to say about that.



It had to be done.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Hello, Southwind17. Can I ask you a question then? How do you feel about women who *are* submissive? Women who *do* need, crave, and enjoy things that you seem to find demeaning or abusive? Women who really cannot respect as a partner a man that is NOT dominant?

Well the whole thing about respecting gets a bit odd, and I will attribute it to poor word choice. Requireing it for sexual compatability sure, but thinking someone is not worthy of respect because of what they enjoy in the bedroom? And of course is this a bedroom game or a lifestyle game.

 

[Southwind17]

Hello, Southwind17. Can I ask you a question then? How do you feel about women who *are* submissive? Women who *do* need, crave, and enjoy things that you seem to find demeaning or abusive? Women who really cannot respect as a partner a man that is NOT dominant? Because these things aren't how we feel society is or should be, these are things that are a culmination of our own emotional needs and responses to things others may feel is abuse. But I promise you that it is not. Frankly, I'd prefer to go ahead and die than be forced to live as anything other than what I am, simply because perhaps a majority of people feel it is abnormal or wrong.

Hello sugarb. I feel completely different about women who simply fit the description above and women who fit the description and are prepared to be filmed accordingly for publication or women who don't fit the description but who are prepared to be portrayed as such and filmed accordingly.

So, I guess what I am asking is, why do you have no respect for actresses who are willing to portray roles that some people actually live daily?

I think you miss the point. It's not the portrayal of the role that I disrespect, rather the fact that such women are prepared to parade themselves essentially in public portraying it. Put it this way (and I apologize for being crude here, but I'm a big believer in using an extreme example to make a seemingly elusive point), how do you feel about women who drink other mens' and women's urine and eat their faeces in the name of porn?

I'll quote you now in the context of what I've just written. Would you still have written this in that context?

Sure it isn't everyone's cup of tea, but...maybe it is cliche to say...there is a lot of power in submission. Maybe that doesn't make sense to you...but...a lot of things don't make sense to me either. Like when people are driven by money, or require drugs to get through the day, or alcohol. A lot of things people do doesn't make sense to me. But I hope you can believe me when I say that submission really doesn't equal abuse. It really doesn't. I know that's the complaint many women have about porn, but...there is a difference between being a submissive willingly submitting (and yes, we *like* what is done to us), and something like rape portrayals, which involve forced and involuntary submission. I would understand better, perhaps, if what had bothered you most was pornography portraying rapes. But...submissives *do* enjoy the things they subject themselves to. In real life. So it would be crazy for those who make pornography to portray it any other way.

And by the way, that type of porn doesn't only attract male viewers who wish they could be that guy, but it attracts female viewers and male submissives who enjoying being with someone *like* that guy.

So, how much respect, approximately, on a scale of 1 to 10, do you have for porn actresses who drink other mens' and women's urine and eat their faeces in the name of porn?

Now, if your response should happen to be: "Ah, but that's an extreme example" I'll pre-empt that by saying that what's at issue here, then, in regard to disrespect for porn actresses, is just a question of degree.

 

[Southwind17]

And by the way, what does "public domain" have to do with this? Why is that so important? That's like saying that because your free shirt has no sleeves, all shirts don't have sleeve.

What I mean (if it isn't clear from my last post) is that my attitude to sex and women is completely different as regards what goes on in a private bedroom (or kitchen!) and what goes onto celluloid for public consumption.

 

[sugarb]

Well the whole thing about respecting gets a bit odd, and I will attribute it to poor word choice. Requireing it for sexual compatability sure, but thinking someone is not worthy of respect because of what they enjoy in the bedroom? And of course is this a bedroom game or a lifestyle game.

Hello, ponderingturtle. Um...I don't think my choice of wording was poor, but maybe I should have explained a bit further. No, for me it isn't a bedroom or lifestyle "game". For me...and this isn't true for all submissives--we're as different as any other little neatly boxed categories (lol), I honestly couldn't respect a man, as my partner (not in general, I have a great amount of respect for many men I know that are not dominant) if he were not dominant, because IN GENERAL (not only sexually), I'm a submissive person. I guess maybe I don't mean respect in general, but...in a partner I need someone who sets boundaries and fulfills things for me that requires a certain type of personality. I need someone who can understand me, and someone I can understand, so that we have a good "fit", so to speak. So I do mean respect, but I only mean respect for a partner.

Okay. You're right. Poor wording Sorry.

 

[sugarb]

Hello sugarb. I feel completely different about women who simply fit the description above and women who fit the description and are prepared to be filmed accordingly for publication or women who don't fit the description but who are prepared to be portrayed as such and filmed accordingly.


I think you miss the point. It's not the portrayal of the role that I disrespect, rather the fact that such women are prepared to parade themselves essentially in public portraying it. Put it this way (and I apologize for being crude here, but I'm a big believer in using an extreme example to make a seemingly elusive point), how do you feel about women who drink other mens' and women's urine and eat their faeces in the name of porn?

I'll quote you now in the context of what I've just written. Would you still have written this in that context?


So, how much respect, approximately, on a scale of 1 to 10, do you have for porn actresses who drink other mens' and women's urine and eat their faeces in the name of porn?

Now, if your response should happen to be: "Ah, but that's an extreme example" I'll pre-empt that by saying that what's at issue here, then, in regard to disrespect for porn actresses, is just a question of degree.

Scale of 1 to 10. Well, as ponderingturtle pointed out, "respect" was probably the wrong word, but...respect their decision to do those things? I'd give it probaby a 7, because I simply don't think one of the things you mentioned is particularly healthy/safe/sane. But...adults do a lot of things that aren't. Respect PERSONALLY? As in, my own personal feelings and opinions? Using both of the examples you gave, I'll go with a 5. Using one without the other (sorry, the feces thing...well...one of my hard limits), I'd go with a 9. Feces alone? Then we'd reach the point where my personal ability to "respect" that act would fall into very low numbers...perhaps a 3.

Yes, it is an extreme example, but I'm perfectly comfortable answering any extremes, if I can. And I also realize that my answers might seem contradictory, but...my personal feelings play into my responses, and I can't speak for what other people's limits are.

 

[sugarb]

Southwind, I want to add something to my last response to you. I see that you are distinguishing between what women do privately, as opposed to women who "parade" themselves essentially in public...but...they AREN'T parading themselves in public! I promise you can walk outside your home and go anywhere you want to and not see a woman being flogged, for example. If you see that, it is because you have CHOSEN to see that, or are with someone who chooses to see that. Isn't that true?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Hello, ponderingturtle. Um...I don't think my choice of wording was poor, but maybe I should have explained a bit further. No, for me it isn't a bedroom or lifestyle "game". For me...and this isn't true for all submissives--we're as different as any other little neatly boxed categories (lol), I honestly couldn't respect a man, as my partner (not in general, I have a great amount of respect for many men I know that are not dominant) if he were not dominant, because IN GENERAL (not only sexually), I'm a submissive person. I guess maybe I don't mean respect in general, but...in a partner I need someone who sets boundaries and fulfills things for me that requires a certain type of personality. I need someone who can understand me, and someone I can understand, so that we have a good "fit", so to speak. So I do mean respect, but I only mean respect for a partner.

Okay. You're right. Poor wording Sorry.

That is OK. I don't have a problem with you requireing it in a partner, everyone has things that they require in a partner, things that they can not tollerate in a partner and negotiable items. This being non negotiable is fine, but would you view an ex who was not dominant enough with less respect than someone who was just a jerk? I would hope the jerk got less respect than the person who was just not compatible with your needs in a relationship.

It just struck me that your wording showed a certain degree of denigration of non dominant men, and I don't think that it is right to denigrate people based on if they are dominant, mixed or submissive in the bedroom or in a relationship.

 

[sugarb]

That is OK. I don't have a problem with you requireing it in a partner, everyone has things that they require in a partner, things that they can not tollerate in a partner and negotiable items. This being non negotiable is fine, but would you view an ex who was not dominant enough with less respect than someone who was just a jerk? I would hope the jerk got less respect than the person who was just not compatible with your needs in a relationship.

It just struck me that your wording showed a certain degree of denigration of non dominant men, and I don't think that it is right to denigrate people based on if they are dominant, mixed or submissive in the bedroom or in a relationship.

Oh, no no no. I sincerely apologize if that's what I seemed to be implying. Jerks get much less respect. The only men who get less respect from me than jerks are dominants who are also jerks. There is NOTHING worse than that combination.

No, honestly, some of my favorite male friends are certainly not dominant, and I respect them for the qualities that attract me to them as friends. Honesty is very big in my book, compassion also. Men who love their children are men I love dearly. I have a particular fondness for the medics and firefighters I've come to know and love so well...my best friends are and have been mainly in those fields. No, I simply mean for my partner. And...I don't compare exes with current. I've never done that. I have to say that most of my exes are exes because of *my* failings/insecurities. None of them were really even jerks. (well, okay, ONE was a jerk...but it took me a few years to figure that out. I was very young.)

 

[Southwind17]

Southwind, I want to add something to my last response to you. I see that you are distinguishing between what women do privately, as opposed to women who "parade" themselves essentially in public...but...they AREN'T parading themselves in public! I promise you can walk outside your home and go anywhere you want to and not see a woman being flogged, for example.

Er ... be careful there. "Walk" maybe, but if I so wished I could jump in my car right now and be in Saudi Arabia within 15 minutes - seriously!

If you see that, it is because you have CHOSEN to see that, or are with someone who chooses to see that. Isn't that true?

That is true, but a porn actress knows that the videos that she appears in will be available for public consumption (which is what I mean by "parading" in public - they're actresses and they want people to see them, I presume). Are you suggesting that porn actresses pay cognisance to the "type" of people who are likely to see them on video, and that that's a factor in their decision to do it?

 

[Belz...]

What I mean (if it isn't clear from my last post) is that my attitude to sex and women is completely different as regards what goes on in a private bedroom (or kitchen!) and what goes onto celluloid for public consumption.

Why ?

 

[Southwind17]

Why ?

It would be really helpful, Belz, if you were to take the time to follow the thread (you do realize why it's called a "thread", don't you? ) instead of just dipping in when you're seemingly bored or frustrated with your life outside JREF, reading somebody's last post in isolation or out of context and throwing in your two penneth (and that's about the most your contribution's worth here (that's the Forum per se I mean, not just this thread!)). Try my Post #487 and work back from there, if you're really interested in an adult debate.

I've never used the "ignore" feature here because I've always thought it somewhat of a cop out, but I can assure you Belz, my finger's twitching, and your name's on it!

 

[BenBurch]

We have a Moral Crusader on our hands...

 

[Southwind17]

And I also realize that my answers might seem contradictory, but...my personal feelings play into my responses, and I can't speak for what other people's limits are.

And there's the rub! Thank you.

 

[JFrankA]

Hello sugarb. I feel completely different about women who simply fit the description above and women who fit the description and are prepared to be filmed accordingly for publication or women who don't fit the description but who are prepared to be portrayed as such and filmed accordingly.

I think you miss the point. It's not the portrayal of the role that I disrespect, rather the fact that such women are prepared to parade themselves essentially in public portraying it. Put it this way (and I apologize for being crude here, but I'm a big believer in using an extreme example to make a seemingly elusive point), how do you feel about women who drink other mens' and women's urine and eat their faeces in the name of porn?

I'll quote you now in the context of what I've just written. Would you still have written this in that context?

I'm sorry, I don't get the logic. Does that mean that you respect a woman who has actually killed someone, but have no respect for an actress who is acting as that killer in the movie?

So, how much respect, approximately, on a scale of 1 to 10, do you have for porn actresses who drink other mens' and women's urine and eat their faeces in the name of porn?

Same as any other stranger I don't know. Five. Until I get to know them, then it goes up or down from there.

*shrug* Hey, that person isn't actually killing anyone, isn't actually hurting anyone, or isn't actually cheating or judging anyone. Why does a doing something in the movie change my mind about that person, no matter what they are doing in a movie?

I give respect (or not give respect) on who people are. I don't think performing in a movie enters into that.

I'm sorry, I still don't get it.

Now, if your response should happen to be: "Ah, but that's an extreme example" I'll pre-empt that by saying that what's at issue here, then, in regard to disrespect for porn actresses, is just a question of degree.

I respect anyone to a certain extent until I see their actions and motives. It's how a treat any stranger, including actors, models and forum posters. Also, as you can see, I can change my mind about a person.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Hello sugarb. I feel completely different about women who simply fit the description above and women who fit the description and are prepared to be filmed accordingly for publication or women who don't fit the description but who are prepared to be portrayed as such and filmed accordingly.


I think you miss the point. It's not the portrayal of the role that I disrespect, rather the fact that such women are prepared to parade themselves essentially in public portraying it. Put it this way (and I apologize for being crude here, but I'm a big believer in using an extreme example to make a seemingly elusive point), how do you feel about women who drink other mens' and women's urine and eat their faeces in the name of porn?

I'll quote you now in the context of what I've just written. Would you still have written this in that context?


So, how much respect, approximately, on a scale of 1 to 10, do you have for porn actresses who drink other mens' and women's urine and eat their faeces in the name of porn?

Now, if your response should happen to be: "Ah, but that's an extreme example" I'll pre-empt that by saying that what's at issue here, then, in regard to disrespect for porn actresses, is just a question of degree.

I'll take a stab here:

You talk about "respect" and that seems to be the issue here. Are we talking about "respecting someone" or "respecting someone's decision"? I certainly respect people's decision to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt other people (or themselves), even if it is drinking urine. I certainly respect their decision and I do not judge them solely on the base of that. But I do not share their decision or inclination, meaning, I would never do it myself.

Is that what you mean by respect? Or do you actually mean "respect the person"?In other words, do you think less of a woman because she engages in certain types of porn that you find repulsive?.