Moderated What's wrong with porn?

[BenBurch]

What I object to is other people attempting to control what I am or insisting that whatever it is that I am I have to hide it from others, or insisting that nobody may portray what I am in media of any sort.

"Don't ask, don't tell" is just another way to marginalize those you have a moral objection to.

 

[Southwind17]

I'm sorry, I don't get the logic. Does that mean that you respect a woman who has actually killed someone, but have no respect for an actress who is acting as that killer in the movie?

I thought I'd made my point clear thus:

It's not the portrayal of the role that I disrespect, rather the fact that such women are prepared to parade themselves essentially in public portraying it.

And we're talking porn here (so you can read back if you've forgotten what "role" and "it" refer to), not murder, so I don't get your logic.

Same as any other stranger I don't know. Five. Until I get to know them, then it goes up or down from there.

Interesting default position - five. Would you apply the same "logic" if you were on a jury, I wonder!

*shrug* Hey, that person isn't actually killing anyone, isn't actually hurting anyone, or isn't actually cheating or judging anyone. Why does a doing something in the movie change my mind about that person, no matter what they are doing in a movie?

So you don't believe that a person can be judged, to a degree at least, by their actions, provided they're not killing, hurting, cheating or judging others? You're comfortable with ALL drug users, stalkers and voyeurs right? I wonder why such acts have been criminalized then?!

I give respect (or not give respect) on who people are. I don't think performing in a movie enters into that.

"On who people are". That's interesting. What criteria do you apply in determining "who somebody is" then?

I respect anyone to a certain extent until I see their actions and motives.It's how a treat any stranger, including actors, models and forum posters. Also, as you can see, I can change my mind about a person.

So you "judge" people then, to a certain extent, until you see their "actions and motives". That's interesting, given that you stated above that you object to people judging others. But let's hear more please about what you mean by "actions". This seems to exclude anything of a sexual nature (provided it's legal, essentially). But what does it include?

I'll take a stab here:

You talk about "respect" and that seems to be the issue here. Are we talking about "respecting someone" or "respecting someone's decision"? I certainly respect people's decision to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt other people (or themselves), even if it is drinking urine. I certainly respect their decision and I do not judge them solely on the base of that. But I do not share their decision or inclination, meaning, I would never do it myself.

Is that what you mean by respect? Or do you actually mean "respect the person"?In other words, do you think less of a woman because she engages in certain types of porn that you find repulsive?.

I'm not quite sure what you see as the distinction between respecting a person and respecting their decisions. Aren't a persons decisions, and hence actions, generally if not wholly, a reflection of the person? Are you suggesting that Adolf Hitler and Osama Bin Laden, for example, might not have been/be bad people after all. Please tell me, how much respect do you have for Nelson Mandella compared to Robert Mugabe? I assume you know neither personally, so I'm interested to learn how you form your view, if it's not based on decisions and actions.

ETA: I'm sorry - on reflection I can see that the Adolf Hitler and Osama Bin Laden examples are not good ones in the context of what you stated. But regardless, why do you draw a line under people's decisions/actions at the essentially "harmful" level, above which you have total disregard? I'm all for live and let live, but I honestly fail to see how respect for a person cannot be derived from their decisions and actions at all levels (as dictated by circumstances, of course).

 

[Southwind17]

Hey - we've hit the 500 mark!

 

[Belz...]

It would be really helpful, Belz, if you were to take the time to follow the thread (you do realize why it's called a "thread", don't you? )

I think it would've been shorter to simply answer my question, don't you ?

I'm not obligated to read each and every post. If I've missed one, sorry. But I don't see why the two should be treated differently.

and throwing in your two penneth (and that's about the most your contribution's worth here

Well, I guess I'll be crying myself to sleep, tonight.

Try my Post #487 and work back from there, if you're really interested in an adult debate.

See, how hard was that ? Not that it answers my question, mind you.

I've never used the "ignore" feature here because I've always thought it somewhat of a cop out, but I can assure you Belz, my finger's twitching, and your name's on it!

I couldn't care less, Wind. Have a ball.

 

[Southwind17]

I think it would've been shorter to simply answer my question, don't you ?

Even shorter if you kept with the program and stopped answering already answered questions!

I'm not obligated to read each and every post. If I've missed one, sorry. But I don't see why the two should be treated differently.

Not even if the first is a necessary precursor to the second! Let me guess - you're one of those people who reads comics highly educational books from back to front, right?

I couldn't care less ...

Yup - that just about says it all.

 

[tesscaline]

Jeez - I tried to choose my words carefully to avoid this type of response, so either I failed in that or my introspection goggles are fogged up big time. Let's try to find out which, sticking with carefully chosen words so far as possible:
So, SkeptiChick, what essential examples can you give of physical dominance of females over males within the public domain?

I'm assuming when you say "public domain" you mean "outside of the porn industry". Is that correct?

Sorry - fat phalanges (or is that fillanjeez)! Male chauvinistic/sexist - is there a difference?!

Yes, there is. If you are unsure of the difference, please consult a dictionary.

 

[HansMustermann]

I'm not quite sure what you see as the distinction between respecting a person and respecting their decisions. Aren't a persons decisions, and hence actions, generally if not wholly, a reflection of the person? Are you suggesting that Adolf Hitler and Osama Bin Laden, for example, might not have been/be bad people after all. Please tell me, how much respect do you have for Nelson Mandella compared to Robert Mugabe? I assume you know neither personally, so I'm interested to learn how you form your view, if it's not based on decisions and actions.

I find that a bit of a loaded analogy.

Good ol' Adolf went and got a few million people exterminated. Osama caused some 2,752 innocents to die in the WTC attack alone.

A porn actress, even one starring in the genres you mentioned, ultimately hurt nobody except herself. And most of them not even that.

I don't see how it follows that if I don't pass a knee-jerk self-righteous judgment on the latter, I must automatically be OK with the former too. I trust you can spot differences like "was there any harm done?" or "was there a criminal intent?" between the two, right?

Just like in Ron's case, I too have a mile long list of things I wouldn't do myself, but wouldn't pass judgment upon others for doing. I wouldn't have sex with a man, because I'm not wired that way. I wouldn't go to a Slayer concert, because I haven't liked any of their songs after the first album. I wouldn't eat lamb or mutton because somehow I don't like the taste. I wouldn't play a FPS or RTS because, frankly, I got bored with both genres after about a decade of each. I wouldn't join a SW Stormtrooper club, because, well, I still can't figure out why would I want to dress up like the guys who are there as targets and can't aim if their life depended on it. Etc.

Should I start passing judgment upon those who do, just because I wouldn't do it? Why? Am I the platinum standard of humanity, or what other claim would I have to go judge and condemn everyone who's different than me?

Adolf wasn't a case of personal lifestyle choices, but a case where actual and intentional harm to other people was caused. It's a situation so different, that I fail to see how you came up with it as an analogy.

It seems to me like the best quote on the matter comes from Oliver Wendell Holmes, "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."

And that sums up the difference perfectly. Those who simply do lifestyle choices for themselves, haven't crossed that line, and are still entirely within their right to do whatever they darn well please. People like Adolf or Osama, did cross it.

 

[sugarb]

Er ... be careful there. "Walk" maybe, but if I so wished I could jump in my car right now and be in Saudi Arabia within 15 minutes - seriously!


That is true, but a porn actress knows that the videos that she appears in will be available for public consumption (which is what I mean by "parading" in public - they're actresses and they want people to see them, I presume). Are you suggesting that porn actresses pay cognisance to the "type" of people who are likely to see them on video, and that that's a factor in their decision to do it?

Ack. Okay, flogging maybe wasn't a good example not knowing where your location is...although in Suadi Arabia I wouldn't think a public flogging would be an act a person willingly endured for pleasure's sake. But yeah...point taken

Okay...I sort of get your second point, but...can we take it a wee little bit off topic for a moment, from porn to mainstream film making? Do you feel the same way about actors and actresses that do sex scenes in movies that more people are exposed to involuntarily than porn? Movies are advertised mainstream, on radio, television, magazines...and mainstream movies portray, realistically, things a lot more "horrible" than what most porn does. Hollywood has delved into some of the most depraved of human behavior without even half the criticism that porn of *any* kind receives. Why do you think that double standard exists? And is it a double standard you yourself have?

What about models in magazines? Male and female? Models on billboards? Models in catalogues? Do you perceive them as parading in the same way you do porn actresses/actors? (I'm sorry, but I'm assuming you feel the same way about the men as you do the women? I may have missed it if you made a distinction between the two, and if so I'm sorry).

 

[sugarb]

And there's the rub! Thank you.

You are welcome. I think that we're all acknowledging that our feelings play a major role in our attitudes toward certain things...I think what I'm struggling to understand, though, is why you seem to focus on what women in porn are willing to do. And maybe I'm wrong, but that's probably what other people are trying to understand...because certainly, while you feel that what they do is harmful to women in some way, many others feel that it is all of the people with attitudes similar to your own that do more damage to women as a whole. There is probably *some* truth in both positions, depending on individuals and circumstances...but I think that could be said about almost anything in life, so why focus only on women who do things that are...um...immoral? Is that what you feel?

I responded a moment ago asking about actresses and actors in other types of films, and you know? Though I really am not one of those people that believes music, movies, and video games are powerful enough to affect anything other than the weakest minds, I'm going to argue here that there is something that repulses me more than *anything* you'd find in porn, and that is movies portraying child abuse, glamorizing ugly things to make money...things that really *do* cause damage by desensitizing people to the realities of some horrific things. It disgusts *me*. What passes for "news" on television disgusts *me*. I think it is degrading to human beings in general, and certainly there aren't the restrictions porn is subject to. But...these things are businesses, and people can consume or not, parents can attempt to restrict or not, and they are all available at least for brief overviews almost everywhere we go. Not hidden behind closed doors with over 18 only signs. Again, I know that is a wee bit off topic, but is there really much difference? In the way you've framed it, is there really much difference?

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

I'm not quite sure what you see as the distinction between respecting a person and respecting their decisions. Aren't a persons decisions, and hence actions, generally if not wholly, a reflection of the person? Are you suggesting that Adolf Hitler and Osama Bin Laden, for example, might not have been/be bad people after all. Please tell me, how much respect do you have for Nelson Mandella compared to Robert Mugabe? I assume you know neither personally, so I'm interested to learn how you form your view, if it's not based on decisions and actions.

ETA: I'm sorry - on reflection I can see that the Adolf Hitler and Osama Bin Laden examples are not good ones in the context of what you stated. But regardless, why do you draw a line under people's decisions/actions at the essentially "harmful" level, above which you have total disregard? I'm all for live and let live, but I honestly fail to see how respect for a person cannot be derived from their decisions and actions at all levels (as dictated by circumstances, of course).

Because there is a clear distinction. A person is not their decisions. A person is a lot more than what they do. A lot of good hearted people make horrible mistakes and a lot of vile, mean people may have done something that's good for mankind. You can't judge people by their acts. A person is not their actions.

And yes, I'm glad you pointed out that Hitler and Bin Laden are bad examples. Because I will repeat again:

I do not judge people by whatever type of porn they decide to do, as long as it doesn't hurt someone else (including themselves).

By what you have written, it seems that you do have an issue respecting people just because they perform certain types of porn that to your criteria are dirty and shameful. And I can understand that you do, but I disagree (notice, once again, I respect your view, but I do not agree. I don't like your view, but I respect you. Clear difference). Personally I can't judge a whole person, which is a very complex entity that no one will ever fully figure out, just because they like to drink urine. Personally I find the smell of urine repulsive enough, but I also find the concept of eating a cockroach repulsive and I hear chinese people eat those, as well as rats and dogs. I wouldn't think of judging them or seeing them as low just because they do something that repulses me. But that can only be when I make a clear differentiation between the person and what the person does. Think of how many people have been unfairly judged and typecasted as something they are not, just because of something they did.

 

[sugarb]

Because there is a clear distinction. A person is not their decisions. A person is a lot more than what they do. A lot of good hearted people make horrible mistakes and a lot of vile, mean people may have done something that's good for mankind. You can't judge people by their acts. A person is not their actions.

And yes, I'm glad you pointed out that Hitler and Bin Laden are bad examples. Because I will repeat again:

I do not judge people by whatever type of porn they decide to do, as long as it doesn't hurt someone else (including themselves).

By what you have written, it seems that you do have an issue respecting people just because they perform certain types of porn that to your criteria are dirty and shameful. And I can understand that you do, but I disagree (notice, once again, I respect your view, but I do not agree. I don't like your view, but I respect you. Clear difference). Personally I can't judge a whole person, which is a very complex entity that no one will ever fully figure out, just because they like to drink urine. Personally I find the smell of urine repulsive enough, but I also find the concept of eating a cockroach repulsive and I hear chinese people eat those, as well as rats and dogs. I wouldn't think of judging them or seeing them as low just because they do something that repulses me. But that can only be when I make a clear differentiation between the person and what the person does. Think of how many people have been unfairly judged and typecasted as something they are not, just because of something they did.

Hello, Ron_Tomkins. Love your first paragraph, and I also agree about judging others based on our *own* preferences/beliefs/ideas/etc.

Really this is a quite interesting topic...and not because of pornography. I have always wondered why there is such an outcry about the evils of pornography when I clearly remember growing up with a grandmother addicted to her "stories" (soap operas) every afternoon, in high school my friends sharing that addiction, and the huge disconnect with what they are perfectly fine and entertained by if it is being alluded to, MAJORLY alluded to, but at the same time are appalled at those who just go ahead and take it off. Maybe that doesn't make sense, but to me it is for some reason a major hypocrisy. Little old church ladies all over the country planned their days around their "stories", and then looked at my generation as deviants if a song on the radio had a bad word in it! Or if we wore miniskirts! Soap operas are really nothing more than soft porn. I mean, I never encountered one in which sex wasn't the central theme in the relationships of most of the characters. And certainly on a daily basis they blared couples in bed together across millions of television screens that children everywhere saw!

But that was okay. Soap operas are falling by the wayside now, but...I'm tellin' ya, that was something that ALWAYS bugged me. Maybe that doesn't fit in this thread, but...I don't see why not, either. There are double standards of all kinds floating around when it comes to pornography. And I don't even LIKE pornography (doesn't do much for me, to watch it, personally), but I'm going to outright say here that I'm one of those females that doesn't at all mind a camera rolling during private time. And many of my female acquaintances also enjoy it, or are very very curious about it but too freaked out with their own body image to actually do it. And...I think for those of us confident enough to get over that insecurity, for private use or otherwise...I think that's more empowering than sitting around so ashamed of our bodies that we can't even go to bed without socks or makeup on. Make sense?

 

[JFrankA]

I thought I'd made my point clear thus:

It's not the portrayal of the role that I disrespect, rather the fact that such women are prepared to parade themselves essentially in public portraying it.

So you disrespect any exhibitionistic women? Does that include strippers?

I'm sorry, I'm really trying to see what you disrespect. I'm still not getting it.

And we're talking porn here (so you can read back if you've forgotten what "role" and "it" refer to), not murder, so I don't get your logic.

But you should know that many porn stars are doing a portrayal. There are a lot of porn stars who will perform an act on camera but not in real life and vice versa. The reasons being that even though it's porn, on camera, there is still a certain amount of "unrealness" to it. For example, a porn actress must perform sex in front a bunch of people, but in real life, she may not want to do that with her partner.

So I think the murder analogy stands. It is an extereme analogy, but you said you deal with extemes....

Interesting default position - five. Would you apply the same "logic" if you were on a jury, I wonder!

I do and I have. One has to. I don't see how you can go into a jury without being neutral.

So you don't believe that a person can be judged, to a degree at least, by their actions, provided they're not killing, hurting, cheating or judging others?

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. And to be clear, by "judging" in this case I mean making a snap decision about a person's charactor just by appearance without really trying to get to know that person.

You're comfortable with ALL drug users, stalkers and voyeurs right? I wonder why such acts have been criminalized then?!

On first impression yes. I know quite a few of each. Some are good, some are bad. Depends on the individual.

ETA: Let me ask you this: by watching women you disrespect having sex and assuming you get aroused by it, doesn't that make you a voyeur???

"On who people are". That's interesting. What criteria do you apply in determining "who somebody is" then?

By getting to know them. Communicating, seeing how they react in situations, seeing how they react to other people, seeing what their views are, etc, etc.

So you "judge" people then, to a certain extent, until you see their "actions and motives". That's interesting, given that you stated above that you object to people judging others. But let's hear more please about what you mean by "actions". This seems to exclude anything of a sexual nature (provided it's legal, essentially). But what does it include?

Read above. Let me put it this way, why do you choose your best friend? Why do you not like someone at work? Why do you like one person over another?

I'll admit that "judge" is the wrong word in this case, but I believe that every stranger deserves some basic respect when you first see them. After all, I expect the same from stangers. What makes me so special that I can't give that same basic respect back?

Also, I don't know the full story instantly. I try to look at all sides of a coin, so to speak. No, I don't always succeed, but I feel I have to try.

Basically, I have to agree with the postings above me. There are things I wouldn't do, that others would, however by the same token, there are decisions that I have made that no one would do, either.

In any case, I still don't understand the instant disrespect for a female porn star.....

 

[JFrankA]

Hello, Ron_Tomkins. Love your first paragraph, and I also agree about judging others based on our *own* preferences/beliefs/ideas/etc.

Agreed.

Really this is a quite interesting topic...and not because of pornography. I have always wondered why there is such an outcry about the evils of pornography when I clearly remember growing up with a grandmother addicted to her "stories" (soap operas) every afternoon, in high school my friends sharing that addiction, and the huge disconnect with what they are perfectly fine and entertained by if it is being alluded to, MAJORLY alluded to, but at the same time are appalled at those who just go ahead and take it off. Maybe that doesn't make sense, but to me it is for some reason a major hypocrisy. Little old church ladies all over the country planned their days around their "stories", and then looked at my generation as deviants if a song on the radio had a bad word in it! Or if we wore miniskirts! Soap operas are really nothing more than soft porn. I mean, I never encountered one in which sex wasn't the central theme in the relationships of most of the characters. And certainly on a daily basis they blared couples in bed together across millions of television screens that children everywhere saw!

The thing I think about Soaps (and now reality television and talk shows, and let me state that this is only my observation. I'm probably way off base) is that a lot of those shows are geared so that the audience can feel like they are better than the people onscreen. I hope I don't sound harsh, but it seems like they allow people to make judgements. (There's that word again! )

But that was okay. Soap operas are falling by the wayside now, but...I'm tellin' ya, that was something that ALWAYS bugged me. Maybe that doesn't fit in this thread, but...I don't see why not, either. There are double standards of all kinds floating around when it comes to pornography. And I don't even LIKE pornography (doesn't do much for me, to watch it, personally), but I'm going to outright say here that I'm one of those females that doesn't at all mind a camera rolling during private time. And many of my female acquaintances also enjoy it, or are very very curious about it but too freaked out with their own body image to actually do it. And...I think for those of us confident enough to get over that insecurity, for private use or otherwise...I think that's more empowering than sitting around so ashamed of our bodies that we can't even go to bed without socks or makeup on. Make sense?

...make sense to me..

 

[arthwollipot]

It would be really helpful, Belz, if you were to take the time to follow the thread (you do realize why it's called a "thread", don't you? ) instead of just dipping in when you're seemingly bored or frustrated with your life outside JREF, reading somebody's last post in isolation or out of context and throwing in your two penneth (and that's about the most your contribution's worth here (that's the Forum per se I mean, not just this thread!)). Try my Post #487 and work back from there, if you're really interested in an adult debate.

I've never used the "ignore" feature here because I've always thought it somewhat of a cop out, but I can assure you Belz, my finger's twitching, and your name's on it!

I thought it was a perfectly reasonable question, and I assure you that I've been following this thread quite closely.

 

[arthwollipot]

Here's the essential point of #487 as I read it:

I think you miss the point. It's not the portrayal of the role that I disrespect, rather the fact that such women are prepared to parade themselves essentially in public portraying it.

My impression is the same as JFrankA - your problem is with exhibitionism. You disrespect people who enjoy having people watch/look at them.

Is this closer?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I have absolutely no respect for Peter Cushing. In Star Wars he played a character who murdered everyone on an entire planet. I have no respect for someone who would parade around in public playing a character who did that. Disgusting.

Absolutely disgusting.

I must watch it again on youporn to make sure I remember accurately how disgusting it is, just so a decent person like myself never does anything like that.

 

[BenBurch]

Southwind17, you appear to think you have a moral right to tell other people how to behave. Why is that?

 

[Southwind17]

I'm assuming when you say "public domain" you mean "outside of the porn industry". Is that correct?

If you are unsure what "public domain" means, please consult a dictionary.

Yes, there is. If you are unsure of the difference, please consult a dictionary.

See how that works?!

 

[Southwind17]

Southwind17, you appear to think you have a moral right to tell other people how to behave. Why is that?

Why is that? I don't know. I'm not a psychologist. I couldn't even hazard a guess as to how your mind works that brings you round to that erroneous conclusion.

But let me say this to you - if you think that simply forming a view on something constitutes telling people how to behave then I suggest that you appear to think that you have a moral right to tell people how to think. See how that works? (I like that - "see how that works?" - it works very well here. Thank you to whoever introduced me to it - I think it was earlier in this thread.)

 

[Southwind17]

I have absolutely no respect for Peter Cushing. In Star Wars he played a character who murdered everyone on an entire planet. I have no respect for someone who would parade around in public playing a character who did that. Disgusting.

Absolutely disgusting.

I must watch it again on youporn to make sure I remember accurately how disgusting it is, just so a decent person like myself never does anything like that.

And while you're watching it decent sir would you care for a bucket of faeces to go with your can of urine? I can highly recommend it - the man in the seat next to you has gone super-size!