What is paranormal in Homeopathy

[Ashles]

No I think he is saying alike:
{not exact chemical reaction but just for example}

O2+H2O= H2O3 or HO+H2O
H2O3+H2O=H4O4 or HO+H2O
H4O4+H2O=H6O5...
.......so on.

So if you put hydrogen and oxygen in a bottle and shake, you get water?

Shake again and you get H2o3 or water and HO (is an HO molecule even possible for any length of time?)

Shake again and you get yet more higher oxides of Hydrogen...

Wow.

 

[Niklas]

is an HO molecule even possible for any length of time?

Sure it is. It's what you call a base (ph above 7).
OH- is the correct formula.

edit: to clarify the rest of you post. If you put hydrogen and oxygen in a bottle and light in on fire, you get water.
2 H2 + 1 O2 -> 2 H2O + energy

 

[Ashles]

edit: to clarify the rest of you post. If you put hydrogen and oxygen in a bottle and light in on fire, you get water.

I know that, my point was that homeopaths aren't known for setting their remedies on fire.

But I didn't know OH molecules were stable. Doesn't the extra Oxygen bond need to attach to anything?

 

[Niklas]

I know that, my point was that homeopaths aren't known for setting their remedies on fire.

But I didn't know OH molecules were stable. Doesn't the extra Oxygen bond need to attach to anything?

Well, OH- molecules aren't exactly stable. They have a tendency to pick up or grab H+ ions from adjacent molecules. Then again, if it steals a H+ from a nearby H2O, you'll still have a OH- ion in your solution.
It's only in a solution with a surplus of OH- they can be found in any conciderable concentration.

 

[Mojo]

I know that, my point was that homeopaths aren't known for setting their remedies on fire.

But I didn't know OH molecules were stable. Doesn't the extra Oxygen bond need to attach to anything?

No, the oxygen carries an extra electron instead. In solution it's going to be in equilibrium with other stuff, but there's going to be some around if the pH is above 7.

 

[DavoMan]

The guy who started this thread seems to have the idea that we are bound to prove him wrong; if we dont, Randi forks out the cash.

Coming on a Skeptic forum and being a 'skeptic of the skeptics' and using broken english is no evidence for woo woo.
I got no intention of being like this emoticon:

 

[Niklas]

I got no intention of being like this emoticon:

What about this one?

http://www.filebunker.net/a/albums/userpics/10058/rollbarf.gif

 

[Rolfe]

No I think he is saying alike:
{not exact chemical reaction but just for example}

O2+H2O= H2O3 or HO+H2O
H2O3+H2O=H4O4 or HO+H2O
H4O4+H2O=H6O5...
.......so on.

Better calculate by

Say one part of NaCl consist of 1Million molecules of NaCl & 99 part of water/alcohol consist of 99 million of water/alcohol molecules(you can correct) in 1c. You can take take one gram of NaCl & 9 part of lactose for 1x, count their molecules, apply the chemical reactions & calculate furthur with chemical reactions.

Btw, whether size & volume which they occupy is same for all atoms in view of Avagdro law/number?

I can't wait to see what MAS and his shadow make of this....

(I spent the weekend with a friend, whose younger son is sitting GCSE chemistry next month. He came to ask us to help him with a few simple problems. It wasn't rocket science, far from it, but that child has an astronomically better grasp of chemistry than Kumar.)

Rolfe.

 

[Dr. MAS]

And having created new compounds, HomeoMan, what happens to them at the NEXT dilution? You know - the one where you simply add more water or alcohol?

Thank You very much for accepting this statement. This also proves that Avogadro numbers equation which you were applying was wrong.

Your next question is logical base. I accept this question.

If you confirm then we will move forward. Otherwise it would be of wastage of time.

 

[geni]

Thank You very much for accepting this statement. This also proves that Avogadro numbers equation which you were applying was wrong.

The reaction has a 1 to 1 ratio so no. I specificaly brough up the examples of gold and helium both of which are homeopathic remedies and neither of which are going to react.

 

[Dr. MAS]

The reaction has a 1 to 1 ratio so no. I specificaly brough up the examples of gold and helium both of which are homeopathic remedies and neither of which are going to react.

I will also provide the answer of this question but first confirm that IF new compound has been formed then your derived equation (on mathematical base) of AVOGADRO'S/Law is wrong.REMEMBER, WE STARTED OUR DISCUSSION ON THAT POINT.

 

[Kumar]

I can't wait to see what MAS and his shadow make of this....

(I spent the weekend with a friend, whose younger son is sitting GCSE chemistry next month. He came to ask us to help him with a few simple problems. It wasn't rocket science, far from it, but that child has an astronomically better grasp of chemistry than Kumar.)

Rolfe.

Before posting a "Destructive Type Post DTP if you would have read it "{not exact chemical reaction but just for example}" it would have been more contributing. But we can't change the nature, so nothing is wrong.

 

[geni]

I will also provide the answer of this question but first confirm that IF new compound has been formed then your derived equation (on mathematical base) of AVOGADRO'S/Law is wrong.

No because we are dealing with orders of magnitude. You need to show that the majority of homeopathic remedies can be involved in ractions that have reactant: product ratios of about 1 to 10 under the conditions in which homeopathic remedies are preparded

 

[Zep]

Thank You very much for accepting this statement. This also proves that Avogadro numbers equation which you were applying was wrong.

Your next question is logical base. I accept this question.

If you confirm then we will move forward. Otherwise it would be of wastage of time.

It proves no such thing. In fact, quite the opposite - Avogradro's Law DOES apply, and quite consistently. This is all hypothetical - do you understand that?

Now, we were simply following along with HomeoMan's making a remedy at 30C. So far we have ONE dilution, being some substance or other diluted 1:100 (1C) in the base solute. For simplicity, can we please stick to ONE tincture and ONE solute - I suggest sodium chloride and water.

So... Let's rewind a few pages to THIS post, in which you agreed you would teach us the mathematics of homeopathy:

Excellent! In which case I will set up an initial problem for you, the master, and you will take us all through the homeopathic operation of preparing a simple 30C sodium chloride remedy. And you will do the arithmetic as we go along so we can all follow. And everyone will be nice and polite so we can see the master at work, won't we!

Very well, master. Here's the starting situation.

NUMBER OF MOLECULES IN 1ml (1 drop) of PURE WATER is approximately 33,460,000,000,000,000,000,000.

We are using sodium chloride (NaCl), which for this first exercise we will agree disperses instantly and completely at each level of potentising.

We will agree for thesake of argument that the "mother tincture" of sodium chloride is pure, and that one ml contains the same number of molecules as water.

We will use the classic Hanhemennian potentising method as described here on your own organisation's website by Dr. Muhammad Akram Khan, B.Sc (Hons), M.Sc (PHE), DHMS, RHMP: http://www.nchpakistan.com/articles.htm

So we begin:

What is the first step, and please show us the arithmetic using the above numbers. And remember, you agreed to do this for us.

Carry on, please, Dr MAS.

 

[anor277]

It is extremely interesting that the proponents of homeopathy on this thread have adopted a pedagogic approach, especially on the implications of the Avogadro hypothesis and ions in solution. Of course, it’s possible for anyone to learn something new. I have a Ph. D. in inorganic chemistry and over 10 years experience since in teaching and research, and am at the moment non-plussed. If we are going learn something I wish we could leave out the suspense and Homeo man and Dr Mas quit prevaricating.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

I will also provide the answer of this question but first confirm that IF new compound has been formed then your derived equation (on mathematical base) of AVOGADRO'S/Law is wrong.REMEMBER, WE STARTED OUR DISCUSSION ON THAT POINT.

Wrong? Please go back to the simple questions of arithmetic I gave you some time back. Even if there is a chemical reaction between solvent and solute the atoms of the solute are still present in exactly the same numbers but at 100th the concentration after the first dilution.

If there was a chemical reaction between solvent and solute, the number of solute molecules will be different. But the reaction products will be present at 100th the concentration of the original solute.

You now discard 99/100 of the solution and add the 1 part to 99 parts of solvent.

How many solute atoms and molecules are there after this dilution? You are free to answer on the assumption that all the solute molecules react with solvent, or that none do, or that any intermediate proportion do.

[Edited to correct a solute/solvent typo]

 

[Gaga]

dr. Mas:
Just speaking for myself here, others are welcome to add their opinion.
Ok, for the sake of discussion just forget about Avogadro and stick to cold numbers.
step 1. Salt in water, you start with
10 x NaCl + 90 x H2O ---> 10 x Na+ + 10 x Cl- + 90 x H2O
You throw away 9/10 of the stuff to get
1 x Na+ + 1 x Cl- + 9 x H2O
You succuss and add 90 x H2O to get
step 2.
1 x Na+ + 1 x Cl- + 99 x H2O
repeat like the above
step 3.
0,1 x Na+ + 0,1 x Cl- + 99,9 x H2O
repeat ad Nauseam.
This is a solution, if you like it more we can use an actual chemical reaction, it doesn't change the terms of the problem.
Let's try with homeopatically acid base
step.1
10 x HCl + 90 x NaOH ---> 10 x H2O + 10 x NaCl + 80 x NaOH (+heat if I remember right)
step.2
1 x H2O + 1 x NaCl + 98 x NaOH
Step.3
0,1 x H2O + 0,1 x NaCl +99,8 x NaOH

(The chemistry-savvy here should correct the equations if they are wrong)

Now Doc Mas,
Do you agree that after a certain step (which one depending on initial concentration) the theoric amount of the solute/mother tincture will be smaller that one molecole?
Is there something that I failed to take into account there? if yes what?

 

[Zep]

Gaga, Monkey, anor... Please let Dr MAS walk us through HIS mathematics for homeopathy. He has the PhD and he's a teacher, so I'm sure he can explain it to us more than adequately. I would be pleased to see how he calculates things for us - I'm sure it will be very illuminating...one way or another.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Gaga, Monkey, anor... Please let Dr MAS walk us through HIS mathematics for homeopathy. He has the PhD and he's a teacher, so I'm sure he can explain it to us more than adequately. I would be pleased to see how he calculates things for us - I'm sure it will be very illuminating...one way or another.

Fair enough. I'll try to call to him in his own language.

COME ON DR. MAS, PLEASE GIVE US YOUR STEP-BY-STEP ANSWERS. WE'RE ALL HERE WAITING TO SEE WHAT YOU DO.

 

[Gaga]

Gaga, Monkey, anor... Please let Dr MAS walk us through HIS mathematics for homeopathy. He has the PhD and he's a teacher, so I'm sure he can explain it to us more than adequately. I would be pleased to see how he calculates things for us - I'm sure it will be very illuminating...one way or another.

Yep that makes sense...
It's just the growing frustration of being at page 21 and still not being able to understand what's the logic underneath his claims. (because there's a logic, right? right??)
I'll get back lurking... and waiting.. ..and waiting....