What is paranormal in Homeopathy

[EHocking]

Dr MAS,

You say you have many degrees at various levels and a PhD, and yet you telling us here that double-blinded placebo-controlled trials are NOT valid testing of anything to do with homeopathy. And that you just want us to take your word for the results simply because you say so. And that the onus is on US to prove you wrong, rather than YOU supporting your own claim.

Can I say that I am highly skeptical of your qualifications right off the bat. If any of these degrees or the PhD have been in any scientific or medical fields at reputable learning establishments in Pakistan (or anywhere for that matter), you will have studied and learned and even used the reliable and proven DPT technique, you would know the basic premises of setting up such a trial, and would know know why it is so reliable.

None of the good doctor's doctorates are in doctoring. You can view his short bio here. That said, he should have become aware of the concept of DBT in his role as "Scientific Research Officer LIKE Homeopathic Pharmacy" and "Head of the Research Methodology and Computer Science"

Which is quite the opposite of what you have started out with here. And that immediately makes me wonder what your real purpose is in being here... Are you REALLY as qualified as you say you are? I'd like some sort of proof of that first up, if you don't mind.

Do you think Allah smiles on frauds?

 

[Dr. MAS]

quote:
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Originally posted by andycal

I answered you:
quote:

As far as I am concerned it's just two words put together to apparently mean something. To some it does mean something and they are willing to pay people like you to administer what is, to all intents and purposes nothing.



It doesn't exist. Will that do for an answer?

Dr. MAS: Frankly speaking (and seriously) still I haven’t followed your reply. Try to teach me in some other way. Thanks


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[Zep]

Zep and Andy

I will never reply you in the same tone.

Oh?

Surely you have participated in debates and moots and tutorials, etc, throughout your degree courses. And you must surely have "defended" your PhD thesis to a review panel of professors in order to be awarded the doctorate. So you know full well that proper research, incisive questioning, and proper support of arguments are at the heart of the recognised degree systems. Isn't that right?

So perhaps you might care to tell us what your PhD thesis was about. And could you please give us a reference so we can go and read it.

If you would be so kind. Unless you have some reason to NOT to disclose your qualifications??

Come to the point!

"What is paranormal in homeopathy"? So that we could go further?

Smile

I believe we HAVE come to the point: Homeopathy is, so far as has been determined by reputable means to date, nothing more than tap-water and and a shoulder to cry on. It is NOT medicine. People who sell it as medicine are fooling themselves and their patients, and are often charlatans.

The point is, as has been asked above: Please point us the way of reputable, published, verifiable, unbiased, controlled, double-blind studies which demonstrate the existence of homeopathic effects.

If you would be so kind.

 

[Dr. MAS]

quote:
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Originally posted by EHocking

None of the good doctor's doctorates are in doctoring. You can view his short bio here. That said, he should have become aware of the concept of DBT in his role as "Scientific Research Officer LIKE Homeopathic Pharmacy" and "Head of the Research Methodology and Computer Science"

Dr. MAS: I am not coming here to provide evidences of my certification. Neither I said, I am more qualified then any other, I replied when he said, a scientist believe on DBT to prove something and I said, I as a scientist (I) am telling you “No” it is not same as you are thinking. Atleast you will give me chance to clear my postion.


How can I set my avatar?


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[Rolfe]

"What is paranormal in homeopathy"? So that we could go further?

I think we already covered that. There is nothing at all in the remedies, apart from the stock carrier material. No molecules remaining from the "mother tincture", no alteration in the structure of the carrier material, and no mysterious energies of any kind. Thus, if the remedies are having an effect on the body, it is through some means completely unknown to science.

Also, its theory fulfills all the criteria of Sympathetic Magic.

You have been listening to Bach too much. The question we ask about homoeopathy is whether the remedies themselves have any effect on the body. We acknowledge that the whole homoeopathic consultation process can be beneficial to people, in a psychological way, and that people who desperately want to believe they have been given good treatment are apt to persuade themselves they are better. However, do the remedies have an effect of themselves?

To answer this is is necessary to take two comparable groups of people and treat them exactly the same, apart from the fact that while the members of one group are given their selected, individualised remedy, the members of the other group are given only untreated sugar pills. Who is in which group is kept secret from everyone involved in the study.

At the end, you make as objective measurements as you can, standardised across all the patients, to see who has actually improved or not. Then the secrecy is broken, and we look to see if those who got their prescribed remedies did better than those who didn't.

Now, this exercise is known as a double-blind, placebo-controlled trial, but that's just the label. It is simply a tool to discover whether a treatment is having a real effect, or whether the effects people have though were there are just a combination of coincidence and wishful thinking. What is your objection to using that test for homoeopathy (apart from the fact that homoeopathy always fails)? What different a test would you suggest?

Your idea with the AIDS or hepatitis patients is interesting, but you have to define what you mean by "cure". These chronic diseases often go through periods when the patient feels quite well. You must come up with a definition of actual cure which can be tested and proved. You also have to show that a similar group of people who didn't get the homoeopathy were not cured. Which of course makes it a placebo-controlled trial.

Do you really think you can cure AIDS? Why are you and other homoeopaths not doing this on a large scale, then?

Rolfe.

Bt the way, I have a PhD too, so don't try to pull rank.

 

[andycal]

Dr. MAS: Frankly speaking (and seriously) still I haven’t followed your reply. Try to teach me in some other way. Thanks

Homeopathy is a crank science, it doesn't work, it's just water, it's a scam etc.etc.etc.

What else do you want? How can I explain it any differently?

Paranormal Homeopathy is a scam wrapped up in another scam.

 

[Dr. MAS]

Zep

we will settle "Qualification matters" at some othe place (after mutal agreement) but not here. This is your home, you know "a cat is lion at her home" (No offense just kidding and try to make you future friend)

 

[EHocking]

quote:
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Originally posted by EHocking

None of the good doctor's doctorates are in doctoring. You can view his short bio here. That said, he should have become aware of the concept of DBT in his role as "Scientific Research Officer LIKE Homeopathic Pharmacy" and "Head of the Research Methodology and Computer Science"

Dr. MAS: I am not coming here to provide evidences of my certification. Neither I said, I am more qualified then any other, I replied when he said, a scientist believe on DBT to prove something and I said, I as a scientist (I) am telling you “No” it is not same as you are thinking. Atleast you will give me chance to clear my postion.

My post was not a shot at your education, I was merely pointing out that your qualifications do not stand you in good stead to refute double-blind testing, as none of your disciplines would have ever employed the technique.

On the other hand, you claim to have held two research positions so should be aware of the concept of DBT. That is all I stated.

Now, as for clearing up your position, you state above "as a scientist" that double-blind testing does not prove anything.

On what basis do you make this claim, "as a scientist"?

 

[Dr. MAS]

quote:
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Originally posted from above, Andy said

What else do you want? How can I explain it any differently?

Paranormal Homeopathy is a scam wrapped up in another scam.

Dr. MAS: This is your concern how you will explain to me, I have not followed what you are trying to teach me, it is your job to construct some method to teach me, if one (dr.mas) is not following what you are saying, you please adopt another method which is understandable to me. Or I could understand your viewpoint easily.

Just like I ask you the same question in another words:

What you found unusual in Homeopathy which you want from us to demonstrate?


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[andycal]

Blimey... First of all, I'm having trouble beleiving that someone with as many qualifications as you could find this difficult. But putting that aside for one moment...

What you found unusual in Homeopathy which you want from us to demonstrate?

OK, first of all, the whole idea here is that if you have a claim for homeopathy, you should state what you believe it can do, then we can discuss whether it can do it or not. The problem with what you're asking is, I can say "I don't believe Homeopathy can do etc..." and you can say "We never said it could".

But, assuming that you are stating that it can cure certain diseases, I say to you that it is no more effective than water, because that's all it is.

If you don't understand that, then I'm afraid I'll be going back to the old 'Troll' routine because it doesn't get any simpler.

 

[Dr. MAS]

quote:
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Originally posted from 1st page : Rolfe said

First, what is paranormal about homoeopathy is that there is absolutely nothing in the remedies (at least at the "potencies" most often used by professional homoeopaths). No remedy substance and no measurable or theoretical "energies" and no altered structure of the carrier substances. So if there is an effect there, then it's by some means quite unknown to science.

Dr. MAS: So, in your sense

one paranormal in homeopathy is

1. There is “nothing” in the remedies (Potencies).

What do you mean by “nothing” what do you want to be interested in having in that potency? Anything specific? So that we could try to make it available in that potency for you?

2. There is no remedy substance or measurable energy in dilution?

Is this your paranormal question? Which remedy substance do you want to see? Which energy do you want measure?

Please clearly tell us what is your exact demand? So that we could make arrangement to show our verdict.


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[Zep]

Zep

we will settle "Qualification matters" at some othe place (after mutal agreement) but not here. This is your home, you know "a cat is lion at her home" (No offense just kidding and try to make you future friend)

Why not?

If it helps you, I'm more than willing to admit that I have but one degree, a Bachelor of Science with a double major in Computing and Information Systems, and minors in Physics, Biology and Geology.

But you are right in that this is not comparative qualifications wars. We have a number of posters here who are technically "unqualified" who can run up some pretty damn good arguments, I can tell you! What counts more, really, is application of your intelligence.

This is NOT my home, it is a skeptical forum. My real home is in Sydney, Australia (see on the left beneath my avatar). However you are more than welcome to be here and discuss things with us, but this is how we do it, even among ourselves. I did warn you above that you needed to be on your toes! You also need to be prepared to back up your claims with evidence...GOOD evidence. And in the case of homeopathy, ANY evidence.

I should warn you though that much of the evidence currently being touted as "proof" of homeopathy has already been thoroughly examined here in detail, and found remarkably wanting. But we would still be pleased to see something new!

 

[Dr. MAS]

quote:
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Originally posted from above : andycal said

Blimey... First of all, I'm having trouble beleiving that someone with as many qualifications as you could find this difficult. But putting that aside for one moment...

Dr. MAS: That’s the point, you have already made up your mind that I am trying to tease you or I intentionally denying to understand properly, but reality is I have not followed your requirement to prove? Now it’s your job to design another method or protocol to teach me, because I have not followed your previous method of instruction.

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[Dr. MAS]

quote:
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Originally posted from above : Zep said

You also need to be prepared to back up your claims with evidence...GOOD evidence.

Dr. MAS: Don’t worry, I am the one who is banned at all HOMEOPATHIC FORUMS, Hence I am already on my toes. If you assure me that admin will not impose ban on me then you will see we will sit on our toes. The time will decide either you leave or I depart from here. (Please do not treat it as a threat; this is just my guess of future scenario of Randy land. I believe that you will all leave this thread after declaring me cerebral ataxia patient.

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[Zep]

quote:
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Originally posted from 1st page : Rolfe said

First, what is paranormal about homoeopathy is that there is absolutely nothing in the remedies (at least at the "potencies" most often used by professional homoeopaths). No remedy substance and no measurable or theoretical "energies" and no altered structure of the carrier substances. So if there is an effect there, then it's by some means quite unknown to science.

Dr. MAS: So, in your sense

one paranormal in homeopathy is

1. There is “nothing” in the remedies (Potencies).

What do you mean by “nothing” what do you want to be interested in having in that potency? Anything specific? So that we could try to make it available in that potency for you?

Nothing = zero, zilch, NOTHING! Not. One. Molecule. And if there is nothing in the remedy at all but plain old water, perhaps you might tell us how ANYTHING special can be maintained in high-dilution remedies.

2. There is no remedy substance or measurable energy in dilution?

Is this your paranormal question? Which remedy substance do you want to see? Which energy do you want measure?

How many energies are there that can be measured? (Warning: Be careful how you answer this question)

Please clearly tell us what is your exact demand? So that we could make arrangement to show our verdict.

Randi has already specified a reasonable test protocol that will go something like this: 100 test-tubes will be set up that are all identical. 50 of them will contain pure water used for making homeopathic remedies. The other 50 will contain an ultra-molar (30C) homeopathic remedy made by the homeopath using the same pure water from the same source as the first 50 test-tubes. Without the scientists or the homeopath watching, the tubes are then all coded with a secret code so no-one can tell what is in them by reading the code. Then they are put out on a table in a random order. The scientists and the homeopath will not know which test-tubes are homeopathic and which are plain water. Only the code-holder will, and they will not be there during the testing. Under these double-blind conditions, the homeopath has to successfully identify the 50 homeopathic test-tubes by any method they wish. If this can be done, homeopathy has passed the first test of efficacy.

What do you think, Dr MAS? Is this a fair test?

 

[andycal]

What exactly is your point? You've now gone into the realms of quoting in red like all the other woos. (that's to Dr. Mas by the way!)

Underneath the bit you quoted, I said quite clearly what I meant, selective quoting gets you nowhere.

You have come to this forum without a question, you evade any information given to you and you try to confuse.

Here it is, plain and simple:

"Homeopathy is not better than water at curing anything that it is claimed to cure."

If you can, just quote that one line and let's discuss it.

 

[MRC_Hans]

*snip*If you detail us (homeopaths) to treat 10 AIDS / Hepatitis etc confirmed patients and if we succeed in curing 8 out 10 then you might confirm that "Homeopathic medicines have good healing effects / property against human diseases".

On the first stage, we would like to verify the above statement. if we succeed, then could we come in the row of winning the prize? or your demand is something else

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/B]

I'd say even 2 out of 10 would be interesting. Never mind the prize. If you can cause even a fraction of the AIDS patients you treat to seroconvert, the JREF prize will be small change compared to the fame and fortume you'll win.

But, let's come back from dream-land, ehh? What CAN you do?

Hans

 

[Dr. MAS]

quote:
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Originally posted from 1st page : delphi_ote said

par·a·nor·mal (adj.) Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation.

Dr. MAS: Here I disagree with you. Homeopathy can be explained with scientific judgments. The question is which part of homeopathic function you are interested in proving? Curing patient? Dilution effect? Presence of substance in potency? Or any other?

Tell us, only one, so that we could make arrangement for that proof. Remember you said, it is beyond the range of normal experience, hence you cannot prove it with normal double blind test you require another protocol to prove this "beyond normal science".

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[Zep]

Dr MAS, you might care to prove that homeopathy works AT ALL under fair scientific testing, before you start trying to dodge-and-weave about paranormality.

 

[Dr. MAS]

quote:
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Originally posted from above : Zep said

pa Is this your paranormal question? Which remedy substance do you want to see? Which energy do you want measure?

How many energies are there that can be measured? (Warning: Be careful how you answer this question)

Dr. MAS: This question you cannot ask to me. This is mine question to ask you which type of energy you want to measure in homeopathic dilutions; I never claimed homeopathic dilutions contain energy. It was you who said, it contain energy...

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